Is Dunn a PG or a SG?

[Q12543 [enjin:6621299]]

Thanks LST for the insight.

Let me be clear that I believe Kris Dunn's primary position is point guard. And when he plays with Rubio or Tyus Jones, I don't necessarily believe that it makes him a shooting guard offensively. What it means is we're playing two point guards because both guys offensively can bring the ball up, set things up, run the pick and roll, etc.

Defensively, however, he can play either position. In that regard, he fits the mold of a combo guard because he has the size and athleticism to check PGs and SGs.

Also, the LaVine example is a bad one. Flip and Mitchell was trying to shoehorn a guy with rudimentary point guard skills into a real NBA point guard. That's different than telling a guy trained to be a PG (like Dunn) and telling him to play next to another point guard. Which do you think is an easier transition?

So when I say that Dunn is just a guard, what I really mean is that he has point guard skills, but can play along side other point guards because of his ability to guard SGs and be a scoring threat. I'm not sure we have any other player that offers that on our team, including LaVine.

[longstrangetrip [enjin:6600564]]

Good discussion here with valid points made by posters in all 3 camps...PG, SG and doesn't really matter.

As I stated before, Thibs will likely decide Dunn's role this year more by need than suitability, just as Flip/Sam did with Zach. It's far too early to form any conclusions about where Dunn will thrive, but my initial thought remains that his best role is backing up Zach at SG.

Some here have maligned Tyus Jones' performance, but I actually thought he played pretty well. He clearly looked like he had packed on some good weight, and he also seemed to have a lot more spring in his vertical. He looked comfortable running the offense, hit 43% of his threes, and didn't embarrass himself on defense (unless he did last night...I didn't watch). He does get beat off the dribble sometimes because of his lack of lateral quickness, but he is a smart defender with quick hands...I can see Thibs turning him into an average defender. I can see him as a capable backup this year to Ricky.

As for Dunn, he looked better in his 2 games at SG than PG. Khans is right...he did look good driving the lane and kicking the ball out (as did Tyus), but as monster pointed out, this is a skill that is valuable in a SG too. And yes, he did struggle with defending Norman Powell, but I saw that as more of an issue of poor rotation than size and strength. I fully expect that he is physically capable of guarding SGs, just as body double Dwyane Wade is.

There will be a lot more discussion on this topic as we get into pre-season and opinions may change, but here's mine right now...I would prefer to see Dunn backing up Zach, and Tyus backing up Ricky. This likely leaves Rush out of the regular rotation, but he is an aging career backup. I think he can still be valuable in a spot role as a 3-point shooter off the bench, or in a more regular role if one of our other 4 guards is out.

[AbeVigodaLive]

What ever happened to just being a guard? Back in the old days a guard was expected to have high-level skills in dribbling, passing, and shooting. Guys like Gail Goodrich and Jerry West were practically interchangeable (keep me honest LST - I never actually saw these guys plays, but that's what Uncle Drew told me).

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I had to think about this one, q, because I wasn't sure. Fortunately I had my standing Tuesday morning breakfast group this morning, and was able to pose your concept to a guy who played with the Lakers in the 50s. He didn't think guard classifications have changed much. He said that he was clearly a SG on the Lakers, and that Slater Martin was clearly the PG. Further, he said nobody would have ever called Bob Cousy anything other than a PG, or Jerry West anything but a SG. Now there were exceptions back then, just like there are now, and you came up with a good one in Goodrich. But for the most part guards had identities like they do today.

I have to admit I'm a little troubled by calling Dunn just "a guard". Flip and Sam both tried to stress that concept with LaVine, but many here didn't want to buy it and preferred to think of him only as a SG. I remember similar conversations about Randy Foye, who exhibited qualities of both guard positions...I was always a little concerned that he wasn't quite suited to excel at either position though.

While flexibility is good to some extent, I think ultimately a guard will carve out a better career if he can establish a true identity as either a SG or a PG. That doesn't mean he can't exhibit qualities of both...Curry clearly does, but just as clearly he is primarily a PG.

Actually, wasn't Jerry West almost the prototype for today's "creating guards"...

His basketballreference page lists him as a Shooting Guard and Point Guard. He had seasons with 9.5 / 9.7 / 8.8 assists per game late in his career. He led his team in assists many other seasons, averaging 6.7 spg for his career and never lower than 4.2 apg (rookie).

[SameOldNudityDrew]

I agree with the reality that at the end of the day, somebody is going to be labeled your"point" because he primarily initiates the offense (I can't even say point guard because guys like LeBron and Simmons are clearly not guards).

But I still think the key question is what can a guy do and how well? Then you try to get the best match of the best players.

So the next questions are, what are the specific skills we need from our more perimeter-oriented players, and who can provide them best? Here's a stab.

Offensive Guard Skills
Ballhandling-Rubio and Tyus are both safe ball handlers, not turning the ball over much, LaVine is a very good ball handler, but doesn't usually have his head up when doing so, Dunn looks really shifty as a ball handler particularly with his crossover, but a little sloppy at times, and Wiggins is a bad ball handler after more than a couple dribbles, which makes it tough to play him at the 2.
Halfcourt Management-Rubio is really good at directing traffic, Tyus seems solid although strangely better in transition, this was LaVine's biggest weakness, Dunn seems to have had a lot of college experience directing simple sets like PNRs
Distributing-Rubio is clearly the best at this, but Tyus is a pretty safe passer, there's reason to believe Dunn can be productive especially in PNRs and drive and kicks but there are questions about his TOs (which is somewhat understandable given his emphasize of driving and kicking), LaVine's not a bad passer for an SG but shouldn't run the point, Wiggins is not that great a passer, but we also have passing from bigs like Bjelica, Towns, and Dieng, which is a nice bonus.
Pick'N'Roll Ballhandling-Rubio is really experienced at this but he's not exactly dynamic, Dunn did this a lot in college so that's a good sign and he's got the quicks to either dish or get to the rim, Tyus I haven't seen enough of, LaVine is not bad, this another area that Wiggins really needs to improve on
Transition Passing-My sense is Rubio used to be really good at this, but has backed off a bit in recent years, Tyus is pretty good and safe, Dunn is really dynamic pushing the ball but error prone
Dribble Penetration-This is not Rubio's strength obviously, nor Tyus', Dunn looks like he'll be really good at this, and LaVine's not bad, Wiggins is a pretty solid straight-line driver, and he has that great spin move
Outside Shooting-This is obviously our area of biggest need, Rubio is terrible, but showed signs of improvement last year, Tyus was not great last year but it was a limited sample size and looks like he could be ok, Dunn shot 37% two years in a row in college (but don't tell Cool!) and admittedly, he has a funky looking shot, LaVine is our best bet here, and we've only had one good year of outside shooting from him, Wiggins is also below-average here, so we'll obviously have to rely on guys like Bjelica and Rush, Towns, and maybe even Dieng for this next year

Defensive Guard Skills
On-ball Defense-Rubio's pretty solid at this, but he does have trouble with quick guards, Tyus is definitely limited here by his size and lack of quicks, Dunn looks like he'll be our best on-the-ball defender right off the bat, shows a great awareness of anticipating the pick, and LaVine showed some improvement.
Off-ball Defense-I think Rubio's really good at this because of his court vision and effort, a good ball-deflector, Dunn also looks like he's going to be good at this, Tyus is going to be very limited in this regard if the off-ball person he is guarding is much bigger and quicker, which is likely, LaVine showed improvement in this area last year for good stretches, but he still sometimes fell asleep and occasionally gave up on a play
Defensive Rebounding-Rubio is a very good rebounder, and Dunn clearly looks like he's an above-average rebounder for a guard, Tyus, LaVine, and Wiggins are all below-average
Shot-Blocking-Not necessarily a high priority from a guard, but it's nice to have and Dunn looks like he'll be above average in this regard, although it's not something the other guys seem to bring much of

I'm out of time for going through defensive skills, but defensively, you could also look into taking charges (those stats should be on NBA.com).

I think you should also take intangibles like leadership into consideration. Talking to teammates, giving encouragement, showing intensity, these things are important to have on the floor. Here I think Rubio is really good, and Dunn also looks strong particularly given his intensity. Tyus is not bad, and neither is LaVine, but in terms of intangibles, I'd rather have one of either Rubio or Dunn on the court more often than running with a backcourt of Tyus and LaVine for long stretches. I just like what Rubio and Dunn bring to the table as leaders.

On the whole, given those skills, there are some decent combinations you could put together with Rubio, Dunn, or Tyus as the primary ball-handler offensively. I expect we'll see a lot of Rubio and LaVine of course. I also think Dunn and LaVine complement each other fairly well, and would arguably give us the most dynamic backcourt, but probably not the most careful and efficient one, at least not yet. I also think Rubio and Dunn would work really well together, Rubio generally bringing the ball up and orchestrating the offense, but going to Dunn for a lot of PNRs with Towns, and defensively Dunn guarding the main ball handler and Rubio playing the 2 guard. We'd want Bjelica out there with those two and maybe also Rush at the 3 to offset any concerns about spacing the floor. I'm fine with Tyus getting a few minutes as the traditional point as well, since Dunn can play with him.

So, what do you guys think?

[khans2k5 [enjin:6608728]]

Honestly I would expect to see Rubio/Dunn/Lavine/Wiggins as the primary 4 guys getting minutes at the guard spots.

Ricky 32/Dunn 16
Lavine 30/Wiggins 10/Dunn 8

I just think Tyus is an emergency backup who won't kill you at this point, but Dunn is clearly a better player and should get as many minutes as possible backing up Ricky. I think Tyus is the long -term backup at the position when we do eventually need to pick between Dunn and Ricky, but while we have them both on the team Tyus is likely out of the rotation.

Edit: Forgot who the coach was.

Rubio 38/Dunn 10
Lavine 36/Dunn 12 and no Wiggins because he's dropping a 40 bomb at the 3.

[TRKO [enjin:12664595]]

I think it's all about match ups. If you want to lock down another team's back court defensively, I don't think there is a better combination than Rubio and Dunn. Dunn gives us many options and great back court depth.

[Q12543 [enjin:6621299]]

Drew, the reality is that Dunn is still somewhat an unknown in a lot of the factors you listed. There is also a fairly practical angle to this and that is we simply don't have that many wings. Dunn almost has to play some time at SG.

[SameOldNudityDrew]

Drew, the reality is that Dunn is still somewhat an unknown in a lot of the factors you listed. There is also a fairly practical angle to this and that is we simply don't have that many wings. Dunn almost has to play some time at SG.

I agree with everything you say here. Is there something I'm writing that you disagree with?

[Q12543 [enjin:6621299]]

Drew, the reality is that Dunn is still somewhat an unknown in a lot of the factors you listed. There is also a fairly practical angle to this and that is we simply don't have that many wings. Dunn almost has to play some time at SG.

I agree with everything you say here. Is there something I'm writing that you disagree with?

Not really, but you went through a fairly exhaustive analysis of the relative strengths/weaknesses of our various perimeter options above and the reality is that we need Dunn to play some SG no matter what just based on not having a ton of options there. I do appreciate the analysis though, being of a similar ilk myself!

[SameOldNudityDrew]

Drew, the reality is that Dunn is still somewhat an unknown in a lot of the factors you listed. There is also a fairly practical angle to this and that is we simply don't have that many wings. Dunn almost has to play some time at SG.

I agree with everything you say here. Is there something I'm writing that you disagree with?

Not really, but you went through a fairly exhaustive analysis of the relative strengths/weaknesses of our various perimeter options above and the reality is that we need Dunn to play some SG no matter what just based on not having a ton of options there. I do appreciate the analysis though, being of a similar ilk myself!

Wasting my time overanalyzing the Wolves is my favorite hobby!

I agree with you on the need to play Dunn at the 2, though I'm pretty sure some on the board would disagree for 2 reasons.

1) Some people think Dunn can't or shouldn't play the 2 (I disagree).
2) Some people think Wiggins should get all the non-LaVine minutes at the 2. (I'm slightly more sympathetic to this argument, though it would be a stronger argument if Wiggins was a better ball handler).

So I agree with you, and at the end of the day, I think the need to play Dunn at the 2 is also because:

1) He's not going to get enough minutes just backing up Ricky.
2) He looks capable of doing it and good enough to need the minutes.

But I still enjoy analyzing the various skills our guards bring to the table! Given the skills I described above, I'd like to see a lot of Ricky-LaVine, Ricky-Dunn, and Dunn-LaVine pairings.