Anyone up for a moral victory? Raptors/Wolves GDT

[khans2k5 [enjin:6608728]]

KAT is making it real hard to have any confidence we'll be fine after Jimmy and Thibs are gone. Hopefully it's just a slow start.

[thedoper]

I missed the game, but I'm now watching the 2nd half on my DVR. I skipped the 1st half. I've never heard Jim Peterson come down so hard on KAT before. At one point after the KAT drove the land and put up a soft failed layup, Jim Pete said the Wolves might as well go with Gorgui if KAT is going to play so soft. Not long after that, Jim Pete said "time to get G in the game." He went on to say that "KAT has that look on his face that he doesn't want to play tonight." I agree.

This is not the KAT we've seen for 3 prior seasons. He's been an offensive and rebounding force nearly every single game during those prior 3 seasons since the minute he first took the floor for the Wolves. So far this season, he's been a shadow of his former self. And it's not as if he's suddenly gotten physically weaker. There's something wrong with him between the ears this season. I don't know what it is, but it has to be addressed. Maybe it's Butler's presence. IF so, then like most my first reaction is that Towns has to get over it. But the team's top executive and head coach - Thibodeau - has responsibility as the top guy to get to the bottom of this and help rectify the situation. I'm not excusing Towns, but our top executive has to be held accountable for the overall mindset of his players. He let the guy who didn't want to be here, Butler, run roughshot over and publicly criticize his teammates without any consequences. Thibodeau has contributed to the problem. And of course, Thibodeau should have been on top of the Butler situation many months ago when it was obvious even to me from the outside that there was a problem.

Meanwhile, my message to KAT is to get his head out of his ass and grow up!

Who really knows what's going on but I am 100% with you that Thibs shares some of the blame. You can't prop someone up who asked for a trade, and publicly insulted your young star. I just don't see how people aren't looking at the possibility that this can get even worse. I hope that doesn't happen and that KAT pulls his head out of his ass as you've said, but I don't see how you can leave the situation alone and hope it gets better.

[crazy-canuck [enjin:18955461]]

I wonder if something happened on the flight to Toronto between he and butler/thibs. Kat was just not right in the head this game.

[Wolvesfan21]

KAT is making it real hard to have any confidence we'll be fine after Jimmy and Thibs are gone. Hopefully it's just a slow start.

I have to think the feud between him and Butler, going back to last season has caused KAT to play poorly. He just doesn't bring it most of the time on the road. Think late last season and in the playoffs. I think being at home is easier as they don't have to travel together, be around each other so much. At home you have the crowd to back you too, help spark some energy.

Butler doesn't give a rats ass about drama which is why his play doesn't suffer. He actually likes the drama I think.

[longstrangetrip [enjin:6600564]]

I didn't see the game, so thanks for the insights in this thread. While I would have liked a win, it looks like the Wolves gave me everything I asked for: 1) A moral victory...covering the spread against a full-strength Raptors team on their court while missing Wig has to be considered a moral victory 2) energy and solid +/- numbers from the reserves...again, the reserves had better +/- numbers than the starters 3) KAT playing a big role in the offense...well, he did lead the team in shot attempts, so his teammates must have made an effort to get him involved.


So what's up with KAT? He shot terribly in this game and several posters (and Jim Pete) noticed a lack of energy. Sick? Injured? Problems with Butler? Who knows. He better bounce back Friday night against the Bucks, or the "trade KAT" posts are going to pick up here.

[Lipoli390]

I missed the game, but I'm now watching the 2nd half on my DVR. I skipped the 1st half. I've never heard Jim Peterson come down so hard on KAT before. At one point after the KAT drove the land and put up a soft failed layup, Jim Pete said the Wolves might as well go with Gorgui if KAT is going to play so soft. Not long after that, Jim Pete said "time to get G in the game." He went on to say that "KAT has that look on his face that he doesn't want to play tonight." I agree.

This is not the KAT we've seen for 3 prior seasons. He's been an offensive and rebounding force nearly every single game during those prior 3 seasons since the minute he first took the floor for the Wolves. So far this season, he's been a shadow of his former self. And it's not as if he's suddenly gotten physically weaker. There's something wrong with him between the ears this season. I don't know what it is, but it has to be addressed. Maybe it's Butler's presence. IF so, then like most my first reaction is that Towns has to get over it. But the team's top executive and head coach - Thibodeau - has responsibility as the top guy to get to the bottom of this and help rectify the situation. I'm not excusing Towns, but our top executive has to be held accountable for the overall mindset of his players. He let the guy who didn't want to be here, Butler, run roughshot over and publicly criticize his teammates without any consequences. Thibodeau has contributed to the problem. And of course, Thibodeau should have been on top of the Butler situation many months ago when it was obvious even to me from the outside that there was a problem.

Meanwhile, my message to KAT is to get his head out of his ass and grow up!

Who really knows what's going on but I am 100% with you that Thibs shares some of the blame. You can't prop someone up who asked for a trade, and publicly insulted your young star. I just don't see how people aren't looking at the possibility that this can get even worse. I hope that doesn't happen and that KAT pulls his head out of his ass as you've said, but I don't see how you can leave the situation alone and hope it gets better.

Exactly, Doper. Simply hoping the situation gets better was what Thibodeau did with Butler since the end of last when Butler made his dissatisfaction abundentely clear. Thibodeau has absolutely no idea how to run an NBA front office. But we shouldn't be surprised since he's never even worked in a front office or been in charge of any organization. Nor has he ever shown any ability to understand and work well with different types of people on a personal level.

[Q12543 [enjin:6621299]]

If you watch KAT in pick and roll, there are only two guards that have consistently gotten the ball back to KAT for a good look: Rubio and Tyus Jones. Teague and Butler consistently don't deliver the ball back to KAT. Or if they do, it's in a less advantageous position.

So I think part of the problem is he simply doesn't like playing with Teague and Butler for legitimate on the court reasons. And yeah, whatever other drama exists in the locker room or in their personal lives is just piling on.

Edit: Here is some supporting data:

2017-18 Player Pair Net Ratings:
KAT/Teague +6.0
KAT/Butler +10.2
KAT/Jones +10.3

2018-19 Player Pair Net Ratings (thru 5 games):
KAT/Teague -2.1
KAT/Butler -6.1
KAT/Jones +21.8 (!!!)

Do ya think there might be some chemistry issues!?

[AbeVigodaLive]

Ewwww... Looks like the Towns swoon continues. Obviously, it's a bad look.

1) Butler calls him soft. Towns plays soft. Butler was right. It could be as simple as that.

2) Towns got his money. He's on easy street. This one is less likely, but you never know for certain. That's A LOT of money, especially for a young guy.

3) Are we all that surprised? Butler acts petulant and unprofessional. He orchestrates a PR stunt largely to humiliate Towns on a national stage. And the Wolves respond to this attack on its franchise cornerstone by doing... nothing. Heck, they might have actually encouraged some of the continued criticism.

NO OTHER FRANCHISE IN THE NBA WOULD DO THAT. Probably not even Sacramento.

Obviously, something is up. Sans a good 2nd half in one game, KAT hasn't met the level of play (offensively) that he's proven previously. A regression like this for a young talent like him doesn't happen often in NBA history.

So are we looking at a small sample size? Or something more nefarious?

Let's put it this way... MANY NBA players have "shut it down" or asked out for a lot fewer grievances than Towns might have right now.

Whether we all think he's soft or not (he is in certain ways)... the very public way the Wolves have allowed him to be thrown under the bus by a man (or two men) who's holding the entire franchise hostage right now is not normal. And sadly, it's not sustainable.

I don't see this as a problem that's going away... the big question is whether it's going away even if/after Butler is traded. Or will Towns remember this debacle and hold it against the Wolves.



[Note: So I choose #1 and #3. I just think the entire situation in untenable at this point.]

[kekgeek]

Lip next game can you see if towns is favoring his shoulder. I know he hurt it in the preseason but just curious if it is noticeable that he is favoring it still.

Also terrible look by Towns to flat out ask to be benched after he air balled the 3

[longstrangetrip [enjin:6600564]]

If you watch KAT in pick and roll, there are only two guards that have consistently gotten the ball back to KAT for a good look: Rubio and Tyus Jones. Teague and Butler consistently don't deliver the ball back to KAT. Or if they do, it's in a less advantageous position.

So I think part of the problem is he simply doesn't like playing with Teague and Butler for legitimate on the court reasons. And yeah, whatever other drama exists in the locker room or in their personal lives is just piling on.

Edit: Here is some supporting data:

2017-18 Player Pair Net Ratings:
KAT/Teague +6.0
KAT/Butler +10.2
KAT/Jones +10.3

2018-19 Player Pair Net Ratings (thru 5 games):
KAT/Teague -2.1
KAT/Butler -6.1
KAT/Jones +21.8 (!!!)

Do ya think there might be some chemistry issues!?

Wow, very revealing Q. So, trading Butler might help with the Butler/KAT chemistry, but still would leave us with a KAT/Teague problem. Teague is off to a great start this season so I'm reluctant to call for more Jones playing time, but Tyus' on/off numbers continue to lead the team, and he might be the answer to jump-starting KAT. Maybe the answer is pairing Tyus and Teague together more.