CoolBreeze44 wrote:I think the problem with KAT is fairly simple. In my opinion he was told by management/ownership when he signed his deal that Butler would not be staying with the Wolves. And now he's pissed because he made the long term commitment but Thibs is showing no signs of moving Jimmy. I'm not necessarily taking KAT's side, but I think this is what you are seeing. You can decide for yourself whether KAT should be able to put his differences aside and ball to the best of his abilities. But realize he flat out hates Butler, and I can't blame him for that.
This is a major problem with athletes today. I can't get what I want, so I torpedo my franchise? At least a miserable Butler is still competing at a very high level.
Personally, while I hate how this went down, I think Butler is just flat out correct in his assessment of his teammates. Over the past 2 years, this board consensus was that the VAST majority would take a core of Towns/Wiggins over any other core in the league. Is that still the case? It wasn't for me then, and it certainly isn't now. Both Towns and Wiggins on the surface have everything a fan could want....size, athleticism, skill....yet both are underachievers in various ways. You absolutely have to have a solid mental fortitude to succeed at a high level in pro sports. I could give a crap less what the beef is between Butler, KAT, Wig, Thibs, etc. As a fan, and for those like Lip that are supporting this club through ticket purchases, these players OWE it to everyone else to be their best, regardless of circumstance. The fact that so many are almost apologetic for KAT playing so badly is maddening to me. He just got how many millions to play a kids game? And instead of busting his ass and proving Butler wrong, he has seemingly tucked in his turtle head down into his turtle shell and now he waits. If I was KAT, I would be embarrassed. A guy with his skill level should WANT to prove Butler wrong every day from now until a trade happens. And then when we play Butler on a new team, he should WANT to go out and embarrass Butler. But rather, I would guess KAT may get some minor injury and sit out instead. I just feel some of these guys have it, and some don't. Butler has it.....KAT don't......at least not right now.
I keep getting told that KAT isn't going anywhere. Hindsight is 20/20 but wouldn't have SA taken KAT in a trade for Kawhi last summer? Think butler wouldn't have re-signed to play with him?
kekgeek1 wrote:Lip next game can you see if towns is favoring his shoulder. I know he hurt it in the preseason but just curious if it is noticeable that he is favoring it still.
Also terrible look by Towns to flat out ask to be benched after he air balled the 3
I assumed it was because he needed a breather. Seems likely because Towns is a very good shooter so missing a FT like that is pretty strange.
Q12543 wrote:If you watch KAT in pick and roll, there are only two guards that have consistently gotten the ball back to KAT for a good look: Rubio and Tyus Jones. Teague and Butler consistently don't deliver the ball back to KAT. Or if they do, it's in a less advantageous position.
So I think part of the problem is he simply doesn't like playing with Teague and Butler for legitimate on the court reasons. And yeah, whatever other drama exists in the locker room or in their personal lives is just piling on.
Edit: Here is some supporting data:
2017-18 Player Pair Net Ratings:
KAT/Teague +6.0
KAT/Butler +10.2
KAT/Jones +10.3
2018-19 Player Pair Net Ratings (thru 5 games):
KAT/Teague -2.1
KAT/Butler -6.1
KAT/Jones +21.8 (!!!)
Do ya think there might be some chemistry issues!?
Wow, very revealing Q. So, trading Butler might help with the Butler/KAT chemistry, but still would leave us with a KAT/Teague problem. Teague is off to a great start this season so I'm reluctant to call for more Jones playing time, but Tyus' on/off numbers continue to lead the team, and he might be the answer to jump-starting KAT. Maybe the answer is pairing Tyus and Teague together more.
Teague was getting Towns some good looks tonight. Things were actually rolling pretty good early on.
Q12543 wrote:If you watch KAT in pick and roll, there are only two guards that have consistently gotten the ball back to KAT for a good look: Rubio and Tyus Jones. Teague and Butler consistently don't deliver the ball back to KAT. Or if they do, it's in a less advantageous position.
So I think part of the problem is he simply doesn't like playing with Teague and Butler for legitimate on the court reasons. And yeah, whatever other drama exists in the locker room or in their personal lives is just piling on.
Edit: Here is some supporting data:
2017-18 Player Pair Net Ratings:
KAT/Teague +6.0
KAT/Butler +10.2
KAT/Jones +10.3
2018-19 Player Pair Net Ratings (thru 5 games):
KAT/Teague -2.1
KAT/Butler -6.1
KAT/Jones +21.8 (!!!)
Do ya think there might be some chemistry issues!?
I've watched KAT in the PnR. He doesn't know how to operate properly out of a PnR. He sets a shitty screen and then he either half ass fades to the 3 pt line or he half ass rolls to the rim rather than diving the basket for a layup. Tyus and Ricky operate to pass the ball so they make the passing lanes with their movement. Teague and Jimmy operate to score the ball so KAT needs to go to the right places to create those passing lanes. KAT should be a PnR God with his skill set and yet he doesn't make good movement decisions when in that action to help out guys who aren't looking to get him the ball as the first look out of the PnR. Set a good screen and get to the top of the key quickly. Set a good screen and dive to the bucket hard. If he does both of those it will open up the passing pocket, but right now he sets a bad screen a majority of time and then fades or tries to hang out in the pocket that doesn't exist because his bad screen didn't create the space for it to exist. When you're all upper body strength and have chicken legs you won't be able set good screens unless you put in the work to be in the way of the defender. That's what he needs to work on. I've seen him do it so I know he can do it. He just needs to do it more often.
Agreed that KAT could do better in this regard. But if you aren't sure you will ever see the ball regardless, does that perhaps affect his effort on these plays? Not making excuses for him, but just sayin'.
monsterpile wrote:Just finished watching the game here are my thoughts before reading through the thread.
Wolves played good in that 1st quarter on both ends. The ball just didn't go down.
Tolliver had a heck of a 1st half stint. Have I said how much I like that signing?
Wiggins wants to play in Toronto but not against Leonard. Lol
Towns getting more of guys on his screens. I'll take a few fouls there if it means he actually takes a big step towards being a good screener.
Teague has been very good running things. He looked more like Rubio than dribbling Jeff.
Give me Josh Okogie good and bad. He has exceeded my expectations
What's with Butler missing FTs?! That steal and breakaway in the 4th he looked tired.
Guys In general look like they are just or there ballin. Dieng Tolliver Okogie Rose etc look comfortable. Teague was really dealing. Towns is the guy that doesn't look like he is feeling it and he was getting touches in this game.
I know people don't like moral victories but it feels like for the most part the Wolves played fairly well especially under all the circumstances.
I agree, this is a talented, competitive squad. But we're lookin like a .500 team in the West. And that's WITH Butler. Once he gets traded, we're definitely headed toward the mid-lottery, even if KAT does start playing better.
Q12543 wrote:If you watch KAT in pick and roll, there are only two guards that have consistently gotten the ball back to KAT for a good look: Rubio and Tyus Jones. Teague and Butler consistently don't deliver the ball back to KAT. Or if they do, it's in a less advantageous position.
So I think part of the problem is he simply doesn't like playing with Teague and Butler for legitimate on the court reasons. And yeah, whatever other drama exists in the locker room or in their personal lives is just piling on.
Edit: Here is some supporting data:
2017-18 Player Pair Net Ratings:
KAT/Teague +6.0
KAT/Butler +10.2
KAT/Jones +10.3
2018-19 Player Pair Net Ratings (thru 5 games):
KAT/Teague -2.1
KAT/Butler -6.1
KAT/Jones +21.8 (!!!)
Do ya think there might be some chemistry issues!?
I've watched KAT in the PnR. He doesn't know how to operate properly out of a PnR. He sets a shitty screen and then he either half ass fades to the 3 pt line or he half ass rolls to the rim rather than diving the basket for a layup. Tyus and Ricky operate to pass the ball so they make the passing lanes with their movement. Teague and Jimmy operate to score the ball so KAT needs to go to the right places to create those passing lanes. KAT should be a PnR God with his skill set and yet he doesn't make good movement decisions when in that action to help out guys who aren't looking to get him the ball as the first look out of the PnR. Set a good screen and get to the top of the key quickly. Set a good screen and dive to the bucket hard. If he does both of those it will open up the passing pocket, but right now he sets a bad screen a majority of time and then fades or tries to hang out in the pocket that doesn't exist because his bad screen didn't create the space for it to exist. When you're all upper body strength and have chicken legs you won't be able set good screens unless you put in the work to be in the way of the defender. That's what he needs to work on. I've seen him do it so I know he can do it. He just needs to do it more often.
Agreed that KAT could do better in this regard. But if you aren't sure you will ever see the ball regardless, does that perhaps affect his effort on these plays? Not making excuses for him, but just sayin'.
Sounds like the mindset of a stat hunter and not of someone interested in winning games. If you want the ball as a big it's your job to create the space to get it. That goes for setting good screens and getting good position and sealing in the post. He does neither so he should probably take a good long look in the mirror as to why he's not getting the ball more.
Towns deserves some critical for his play so far but it feels like Butler is being given a bit too much of a free pass. 4 FTs missed in a row? Not being able to play a game because you aren't in game shape? Missing a few bunnies because you are rusty because you didn't play in preseason? Regardless of whether he played for the wolves or Miami or whoever that's a bit troubling. He clearly looked tired a couple times in this game and okogie ended up on Leonard quite a bit early in this game. Maybe that was by design and I probably don't have a problem with it but I'm not letting Butler off that easy if we are gonna grill Towns like he has been in this thread.
Now to Butler's credit the guy despite not actually ready is absolutely ballin a lot of the time despite some flaws. Towns other than struggling near the paint is shooting 45% from 3 and 95% on FTs. Ive seen a bit more work to get Towns looks on the perimeter and That's probably a good thing. I have faith Towns is gonna figure out whatever it is that's leading to some poor play. Towns is talented and he is competitive.
I'd guess that he feels a bit lost as a guy that isn't exactly sure where his place is when it comes to the team. Whether he wantsed Butler home or kinda made it know he didn't want Butler hear or just thought he would be gone and would become the main guy...now he is sort just another guy. Towns clearly wants to be that guy. That makes sense. Don't we want him to be that guy? Should we be absolutely ripping him if he is trying and failing? He turns 23 in a few days as Taj said on media day about Towns and Wiggins they are still babies. Lol On one hand other players seem to be fine and Towns isn't. Credit to all the other players and yes Towns needs to get it together. He may need some help from everyone around him and that includes Thibs and his staff and even Butler could help.
Q12543 wrote:If you watch KAT in pick and roll, there are only two guards that have consistently gotten the ball back to KAT for a good look: Rubio and Tyus Jones. Teague and Butler consistently don't deliver the ball back to KAT. Or if they do, it's in a less advantageous position.
So I think part of the problem is he simply doesn't like playing with Teague and Butler for legitimate on the court reasons. And yeah, whatever other drama exists in the locker room or in their personal lives is just piling on.
Edit: Here is some supporting data:
2017-18 Player Pair Net Ratings:
KAT/Teague +6.0
KAT/Butler +10.2
KAT/Jones +10.3
2018-19 Player Pair Net Ratings (thru 5 games):
KAT/Teague -2.1
KAT/Butler -6.1
KAT/Jones +21.8 (!!!)
Do ya think there might be some chemistry issues!?
I've watched KAT in the PnR. He doesn't know how to operate properly out of a PnR. He sets a shitty screen and then he either half ass fades to the 3 pt line or he half ass rolls to the rim rather than diving the basket for a layup. Tyus and Ricky operate to pass the ball so they make the passing lanes with their movement. Teague and Jimmy operate to score the ball so KAT needs to go to the right places to create those passing lanes. KAT should be a PnR God with his skill set and yet he doesn't make good movement decisions when in that action to help out guys who aren't looking to get him the ball as the first look out of the PnR. Set a good screen and get to the top of the key quickly. Set a good screen and dive to the bucket hard. If he does both of those it will open up the passing pocket, but right now he sets a bad screen a majority of time and then fades or tries to hang out in the pocket that doesn't exist because his bad screen didn't create the space for it to exist. When you're all upper body strength and have chicken legs you won't be able set good screens unless you put in the work to be in the way of the defender. That's what he needs to work on. I've seen him do it so I know he can do it. He just needs to do it more often.
Agreed that KAT could do better in this regard. But if you aren't sure you will ever see the ball regardless, does that perhaps affect his effort on these plays? Not making excuses for him, but just sayin'.
Sounds like the mindset of a stat hunter and not of someone interested in winning games. If you want the ball as a big it's your job to create the space to get it. That goes for setting good screens and getting good position and sealing in the post. He does neither so he should probably take a good long look in the mirror as to why he's not getting the ball more.
Kahns I'm right with you on The stuff Towns doesn't donwith screens etc. this game he did pretty well actually. If he keeps doing those things more like he did in Toronto then things will change in a positive direction.
Even though KAT has been moping around quite a bit so far, I actually do think his defense has been OK-ish. He has contested a lot of shots without fouling. The team's Opponent eFG% is refreshingly in the middle of the pack versus near the bottom where it usually is. He's had a part to play in that.
