Duncan vs. KG. Spurs/Wolves GDT.

[khans2k5 [enjin:6608728]]

Keep in mind that we have guys who can get off decent looks at the rim. That's a major culprit in our lack of 3pt shooting. When guys like Rubio and Curry go to the rim if they don't have the spacing to get off a good shot they pass out to the 3pt line. Well Jimmy and Wiggins can almost always get off a decent look at the rim so their first instinct on the drive is to score. A guy like Teague doesn't get all the way to the rim most of the time and throws up floaters so he's not drawing corner defenders. We simply don't run an offense made to generate 3's. We run an offense made to score at the basket and have several guys who can do that at a high level so they don't kick out to the 3pt line when they get to the rim. It looks ugly, but it makes up for a lack of good 3pt shooters and we have the talent to play that way and be the 4th best offense in the league. No it's not ideal basketball in today's world, but it gets the job done and probably fits our personnel better than if we tried to play like the Warriors.

Our biggest problem continues to be defense. We give up too many easy looks at the rim and when we do challenge shots well in that area the ball is just kicked out to 3pt shooters. Tonight was a perfect example of it. Our bigs just can't hold position down there and they are often late on help. Every drive to the rim seemed like a 2 on 1 where even if the floater misses our big whiffed on the block so his man has prime rebounding position to get the board and score. I just wish our bigs would glue their feet to the floor, put their hands up and keep position rather than give it up by going after bad block attempts.

[longstrangetrip [enjin:6600564]]

Apologists for Thibs' offensive strategy and the lack of 3-point shooting often cite the dearth of 3-point shooters on the roster. The addition of Tolliver provides a true test of Thibs' offensive strategy compared to the rest of the league. Tolliver has averaged 4 3's per game the past 5 years for 4 different teams. He took no 3's in his first game directed by Thibs. The better teams in the NBA design their offenses around creating layups and open threes...not Thibs though.

If Thibs continues to emphasize one-on-one offense, I would argue Tolliver was a wasted free agent move...might as well leave him on the bench and give his minutes to Bates-Diop.

[AbeVigodaLive]

Keep in mind that we have guys who can get off decent looks at the rim. That's a major culprit in our lack of 3pt shooting. When guys like Rubio and Curry go to the rim if they don't have the spacing to get off a good shot they pass out to the 3pt line. Well Jimmy and Wiggins can almost always get off a decent look at the rim so their first instinct on the drive is to score. A guy like Teague doesn't get all the way to the rim most of the time and throws up floaters so he's not drawing corner defenders. We simply don't run an offense made to generate 3's. We run an offense made to score at the basket and have several guys who can do that at a high level so they don't kick out to the 3pt line when they get to the rim. It looks ugly, but it makes up for a lack of good 3pt shooters and we have the talent to play that way and be the 4th best offense in the league. No it's not ideal basketball in today's world, but it gets the job done and probably fits our personnel better than if we tried to play like the Warriors.

Using Curry + Rubio together to prove your point seems a bit odd. Curry is one of the best small guard finishers in NBA history. He's exceptional.

Futhermore, I have no problem IF the Wolves are actually getting the bulk of their shots AT the rim. They're not.

From an article last March...

"Minnesota doesn't attempt many shots in the restricted area, either, producing the fifth-lowest rate of shots from there (24.8 per game). Shots in the restricted area (1.26 points per shot) and three-point attempts (1.09 points per attempt) represent two of the most efficient shots a team can take, behind only the two free throw attempts awarded after drawing a foul (1.54 points per attempt)."

And yes. The Wolves did end up with really solid/good efficiency last season despite angst about the style. It was actually pretty remarkable. I guess we'll find out soon enough if it was an anomaly or not.

[longstrangetrip [enjin:6600564]]

Some things never change. The only positive +/- player for the night was................Tyus Jones.

I didn't think he was particularly good tonight. But he consistently is among the team leaders in +/-. Good to see Thibs give him 16 minutes tonight.

And Rose was only -1 while being one of the worst on the floor.

Weird, huh? Neither of them looked very good, but the team did well when they were on the court. I get that plus minus is a muddy stat, but ultimately scoring more points than you give up is what the game is all about, and jones consistently excels in this measurement.

[crazy-canuck [enjin:18955461]]

Some things never change. The only positive +/- player for the night was................Tyus Jones.

I didn't think he was particularly good tonight. But he consistently is among the team leaders in +/-. Good to see Thibs give him 16 minutes tonight.

And Rose was only -1 while being one of the worst on the floor.

Weird, huh? Neither of them looked very good, but the team did well when they were on the court. I get that plus minus is a muddy stat, but ultimately scoring more points than you give up is what the game is all about, and jones consistently excels in this measurement.

If you go by bbref, tyus looked horrible.
If you go by nba.com, tyus led us in net rtg.

[longstrangetrip [enjin:6600564]]

Some things never change. The only positive +/- player for the night was................Tyus Jones.

I didn't think he was particularly good tonight. But he consistently is among the team leaders in +/-. Good to see Thibs give him 16 minutes tonight.

And Rose was only -1 while being one of the worst on the floor.

Weird, huh? Neither of them looked very good, but the team did well when they were on the court. I get that plus minus is a muddy stat, but ultimately scoring more points than you give up is what the game is all about, and jones consistently excels in this measurement.

If you go by bbref, tyus looked horrible.
If you go by nba.com, tyus led us in net rtg.

Yeah, Tyus seems to be a guy whose performance can be quite confusing by different stat measures. I still have to support a guy whose time on the court consistently results in a positive +/-. "More points than the other team" is the only stat that always separates wins from losses!

[Q12543 [enjin:6621299]]

Some things never change. The only positive +/- player for the night was................Tyus Jones.

I didn't think he was particularly good tonight. But he consistently is among the team leaders in +/-. Good to see Thibs give him 16 minutes tonight.

And Rose was only -1 while being one of the worst on the floor.

Weird, huh? Neither of them looked very good, but the team did well when they were on the court. I get that plus minus is a muddy stat, but ultimately scoring more points than you give up is what the game is all about, and jones consistently excels in this measurement.

If you go by bbref, tyus looked horrible.
If you go by nba.com, tyus led us in net rtg.

The Bbref Ortg and Drtng stat on their main page for individual players comes up on this site from time to time.....Don't use it! It isn't just a simple per 100 possession metric of how the team performs while the player is on the court, which is what nba.com refers to and what LST is ultimately putting the most weight on. The Bbref individual Ortg and Drtg looks at the player's individual stats, not team stats, so it's more similar to something like PER than a true +/- type of metric. It's deceiving because they use the same term as nba.com but it means something entirely different.

[Q12543 [enjin:6621299]]

Ultimately the +/- stuff has to be looked at over a long time frame since it's a really noisy stat with 4 other team mates on the floor with whatever player you are trying to evaluate. But Tyus has consistently been among the team leaders in this stat since the 2016-17 season. So we are talking about 100+ games at this point. He must be doing something right!

It's clear that starting in the pre-season, he's been looking to create more offense for himself. This to me is what holds him back from being a true full time starting caliber PG and he knows it. So he's out to prove to himself and others that he can create offense for himself. It hasn't been going too well....

[AbeVigodaLive]

Ultimately the +/- stuff has to be looked at over a long time frame since it's a really noisy stat with 4 other team mates on the floor with whatever player you are trying to evaluate. But Tyus has consistently been among the team leaders in this stat since the 2016-17 season. So we are talking about 100+ games at this point. He must be doing something right!

It's clear that starting in the pre-season, he's been looking to create more offense for himself. This to me is what holds him back from being a true full time starting caliber PG and he knows it. So he's out to prove to himself and others that he can create offense for himself. It hasn't been going too well....

To be fair... it also has to take the other team's 5 best players into account. I know that's a large enough sample size... but let's say that a guy like Tyus never played vs. another team's top 2 rotations...

[khans2k5 [enjin:6608728]]

My eye test says Tyus and Rose both looked bad lad night. Rose at least brought energy to the game, but he was mismatched on Derozen too often and didn't bring much of anything offensively. +/- is nice, but they went 5/19 with 3 assists and 2 turnovers. It's a 4 point game and Thibs staggered his rotations better so if he keeps that up I wouldn't really expect any albatross +/- games this year in close games from a guy or two like we've seen in the past. That second unit is gonna get picked up by a Wiggins or Jimmy to keep us in the game. I think from last night too that G really kept those numbers up for them. He really carried that unit offensively so we stayed in the game with them on the court.