Bucks vs Wolves in Ames

[Lipoli390]

C'mon Glen, this just isn't working. Pull the plug and let's move on. I'm convinced that Thibs really doesn't know how to coach defense in this era.

I agree, Cool. Glen has to move on. I don't know what's left on Thibodeau's contract, but it can't be more than another $10 million. That's less than 10% of the player payroll in one season. It's an even smaller percentage of the total Timberwolves operations budget over just one year. It seems penny wise and pound foolish to keep Thibodeau around given the current pathetic state of the team and Thibodeau's central role in shaping the current state of this team. Even if you don't hold him accountable for the state of the team, it should be obvious to anyone with an ounce of sense that he's not the guy to take us forward. But truth is, Thibodeau wanted to control the organization completely as PBO and head coach. Total control carries with it total responsibility and accountability. The team is in a terrible state he has to be held accountable. Moreover, the negativity the eminates from him is palpable and has to be removed from this organization as soon as possible. He's not going to coach this team into the playoffs and the team won't develop or improve under his coaching.

Still nobody coming up with what to do after dumping Thibs. We are screwed.

I would fired Thibs from both his positions. Then I'd elevate Layden to PBO on an interim basis and immediately begin a search for a permanent new PBO to be in place before next May - hopefully much sooner. I don't have any names in mind at the moment, but I'd be looking at assistant GMs and GMs in the Spurs, Jazz and Celtics organizations for candidates. I would hire McHale as interim head coach while we search for a permanent if Mac would agree. If McHale says not, then I'd elevate either Andy Greer or Ryan Saunders serve as interim head coach as the organization searches for a new head coach in the mold of a Brad Stevens or Schneider.

We might still be screwed this season with the interim measures I've suggested, but at least we'd be taking action and ridding this organization of Thibodeau's negativity and obviously poor coaching. As I've mentioned a million times, Thibodeau did not better than Sam Mitchell with the same but more experienced group of players. And even if he could still be a good head coach in the NBA, it's clear he's lost this team - assuming he ever had them. Sometimes it's apparent that you just need to make a change to clear the stench. Well, I'd say it's more than readily apparent that change needs to be made now.

If that's the plan I say we let Thibs coach this team and let him fail gloriously after 20 games or whatever. Sure there are plenty of reasons to fire him but this team was 2 wins away from being a 3 seed in the West last year. Letting Greer take over can be done a couple months from now too. Glen and the franchise can say they gave Thibs a chance to do his thing and it really didn't work. Does it matter? Probably not this season. Seems likely to be a lost one pretty much no matter what unless Thibs ends up having some sort of 2017-2018 Doc Rivers coaching renaissance (not expecting it to happen).

Monster - I suspect things will play out as you've described, with Thibodeau coaching for about 20 games before he's terminated. But I'm hoping that LST is right about Glen likely firing him sooner than that. Watching this team so far this preseason and taking in the Butler drama being reported publicly, I just don't see any point in waiting 20 games, 10 games or even 5 games. Actually, I think it's inhumane to continue to subject the Wolves' players and fans to even one more game in the presence of Tom Thibodeau. :).

[AbeVigodaLive]

Pre-season means nothing. Meh. That being said...

1. Is there anything positive about this club right now? I mean meaningful positive stuff... not pie-in-the-sky "but that one rookie looks like a positive rotational player someday!" kind of thing.

2. Fun. Last year was crazy... the best Wolves team in nearly a generation and we were here bitching more than ever. And it's not like it wasn't justified. The team wasn't much fun.

3. Fire Thibs. (He does seem to be stuck in 2012). Keep Thibs. It doesn't really matter, does it? Are the Wolves going to get a true rising coach with Taylor involved and Wiggins on the books? It's time to think outside the box and nab the next generation of Daryl Morey. The Wolves can't compete as a "us-too" type of club. They MUST be trend setters. That's how you level the playing field.

But NOTHING in Taylor's history of ownership suggests that's the case... unless you go with the absurdity of the David Kahn experience. That was a reach... just a disastrous one.

[Camden [enjin:6601484]]

Out of curiosity, what was "Thibodeau's insubordination?" Seems like that's embellishment, no?

[longstrangetrip [enjin:6600564]]

[

There are several decent options in moving past Thibs in both PBO and HC positions. I've laid out one scenario I'd be in favor of and can do so again if requested, however, I still think Thibs and Layden will start and finish this season out as their last.

He's pretty much buried himself to this point. One awful regular season on top of it will be the finishing touch. And make no mistake about it, this team is on its way to the lottery with or without Thibs. I'm all for a conventional search in the off-season and letting those guys start fresh instead of being rushed into the jobs as the season has already started.

Maybe, Cam, but I don't think so...and I certainly don't hope so. Glen sits courtside almost every game, and he certainly noticed the chorus of boos when Thibs was announced before the OkC game. And those boos are only going to get louder, and crowds will get smaller. Thibs' record in coaching a Wolves team without Jimmy Butler was 31-51, and this year's team appears ready to duplicate that record...Glen will not tolerate that, and should make a move before the season is 20 games old. Thibs' only chance to keep his job is if Butler isn't traded and elects to play when the regular season starts...as he indicated 4 days ago. If that happens, the Wolves go back to being a 46-48 win team, and the crowd may tire of booing Thibs.

Honestly is there a good coach that will come here if the opinion around the league is that our two young max players are soft and can't take discipline? Is there a a good available coach out there that looks at how Glen handled the Jimmy Butler trade discussion going over Thibs head and thinks, yeah I wan't to coach for that owner? Nothing will be solved unless Taylor sells the team to a better owner that also keeps the team in Minnesota. Until that happens we will bring in a new coach and in 2020 we will all be complaining that coach is the problem and needs to go!

Come on, let's get real here. Towns was selected to the allstar team last season by, guess who - NBA coaches!! Potential future Wolves coaching candidates aren't going to think Towns is "soft or can't take discipline." There's no evidence of either. Towns' numbers and talent speak for themselves. If you watch him live as I have for over 120 games you see a guy who plays extremely hard. His instincts on the defensive end need work. That's not going to deter potential head coaches from coming here.

What might give coaching candidates pause is the lack of high caliber players around KAT. They might also be concerned about Wiggins, Teague and Gorgui, who all have contracts that exceed their on-court play. But NBA head coaching positions are highly coveted with few opportunities. So it's nonsense to suggest that good coach candidates won't want to come here. NBA front office executive positions are also highly coveted with few opportunities so there will always be good candidates to replace Thibodeau in that position as well. Taylor's recent intervention in the Butler matter was caused by Thibodeau's insubordination. In Taylor's long tenure as owner, there has never been a situation where he publicly contradicted his PBO in ordering a trade. And let's not forget that Taylor gives his PBO's a very long leash - i.e., he let's them stay far too long. So you actually get more job security with Taylor than you do with most NBA owners.

The issue with Glen Taylor isn't that he's terrible to work for -- quite the contrary if you ask talk to people who have worked for him in the basketball department as I have. And it's not as if good candidates won't jump at the chance to replace Thibodeau as head coach or PBO. The issue is, and always has been, Glen's bad judgment when it comes to hiring his front office executives and coaches. But he's the owner and something has to be done. Right Thibodeau has to be terminated and replaced. For now the new head coach and PBO should be hired on an interim trial basis with a full season to complete a search to fill those positions on a more permanent basis. I wish Glen weren't making the hiring decision, but maybe he'll get it right this time. Even a blind squirrel .... :)

Yes, you nailed it Lip. Glen has made some horrible decisions...Kahn, Thibs, and the Smith debacle for starters. But he is a wonderful guy to work for and willing to open up his pocketbook both for his players and his coaches. It's not going to be difficult at all to find a very good coach to come here...$8 million and the chance to coach KAT and others are two very compelling reasons!

Cam makes a valid point that Glen has been at times slow to react...the best example being letting Kahn stay too long...and therefore might wait until the end of the year to move on Leyden and Thibs. But I think he is conflating two (admittedly bad) situations. Yes, Kahn was terrible...much worse in his front office decision-making than Thibs. But while he was hated on this board, he never really drew the ire of the typical Wolves fan. I think that is because, unlike Thibs, he was never the face of the franchise...rather, he was the invisible man making bad decisions behind the curtain. Thibs on the other hand is very visible in his dual role as coach and POBO, and right or wrong, is now the consensus answer among Wolves' fans and NBA analysts to the question "What is wrong with the Wolves?". Kahn was never booed at Target Center, but Thibs was loudly booed last week and will continue to be. Glen is first and foremost a businessman, and he knows that a flailing team and a coach being booed are going to have a negative impact on ticket sales...and therefore his investment. It's a bad business decision to keep Thibs any longer than 20 games into the season, and Glen didn't get to be a self-made billionaire by making bad business decisions.

[Camden [enjin:6601484]]

It depends on this Butler deal whether or not those boos continue. Who's to say Thibs doesn't get a good return -- much better than what the Heat have been leaking to the media -- and brings a young cornerstone to the franchise? More cheers than boos, I assure you.

[thedoper]

I'm sure Glen Taylor is great to work for if you don't care about winning or excellence. He lets you go fishing and ditch your work all year. The only way this team gets better is when we get a new owner. Glen's reputation has got to be at an all time low. Every former GM that I have seen interviewed about the trade situation emphasized how difficult Glen's comments made things. Every major instance like this in our franchise Glen "gets involved" and it becomes even more of a diasaster. Easily the worst owner in sports.

[Monster]

Pre-season means nothing. Meh. That being said...

1. Is there anything positive about this club right now? I mean meaningful positive stuff... not pie-in-the-sky "but that one rookie looks like a positive rotational player someday!" kind of thing.

2. Fun. Last year was crazy... the best Wolves team in nearly a generation and we were here bitching more than ever. And it's not like it wasn't justified. The team wasn't much fun.

3. Fire Thibs. (He does seem to be stuck in 2012). Keep Thibs. It doesn't really matter, does it? Are the Wolves going to get a true rising coach with Taylor involved and Wiggins on the books? It's time to think outside the box and nab the next generation of Daryl Morey. The Wolves can't compete as a "us-too" type of club. They MUST be trend setters. That's how you level the playing field.

But NOTHING in Taylor's history of ownership suggests that's the case... unless you go with the absurdity of the David Kahn experience. That was a reach... just a disastrous one.

The bright spot/positivity of this team right now is energetic and positive vibe dude Josh Okogie. Other than that it's not looking good.

[longstrangetrip [enjin:6600564]]

I'm sure Glen Taylor is great to work for if you don't care about winning or excellence. He lets you go fishing and ditch your work all year. The only way this team gets better is when we get a new owner. Glen's reputation has got to be at an all time low. Every former GM that I have seen interviewed about the trade situation emphasized how difficult Glen's comments made things. Every major instance like this in our franchise Glen "gets involved" and it becomes even more of a diasaster. Easily the worst owner in sports.

I can't argue that Glen has made some bad decisions, but I find him far from the worst owner in sports...he's not even close to the worst owners we have had locally. There are owners who refuse to spend any money on their teams, and I find that much more frustrating than Glen's poor decision making...long-suffering Twins fans will attest to Glen's superiority as an owner over Calvin Griffith and Carl Pohlad for sure. I also rank Glen far ahead of the group of owners who have exhibited bad personal behavior (Mark Cuban, Donald Sterling, etc, etc, etc)...Glen has always been a model citizen.


Flip Saunders often talked about how great it was to work for Glen, and it would be difficult to argue that Flip didn't care about winning. Sam Mitchell too. I'm not excusing some of Glen's poor decisions...hiring Thibs being the one we're suffering with now...and I always call him out when he does something I don't like.. But he wants to win and is willing to spend to win, and he's not a dick...and those are three qualities I look for in an owner (a pretty low bar, I admit).


If a fan thinks the Wolves are going to suck until Glen is gone, they may want to consider adopting another team, because he is going to be around for a while. He's a billionaire who could be ditching the cold and snow and jetting off to exotic places all winter, but instead he is courtside with his wife for almost every game. The guy loves basketball and knows the value of his franchise goes up every year...why would he sell? Now, he's also a prudent businessman and recognized a couple years ago that his investment in the Wolves was too big a percentage of his net worth, so he has reduced his percentage ownership in the last two years. But sell? Not likely for a while.

[Monster]

I'm sure Glen Taylor is great to work for if you don't care about winning or excellence. He lets you go fishing and ditch your work all year. The only way this team gets better is when we get a new owner. Glen's reputation has got to be at an all time low. Every former GM that I have seen interviewed about the trade situation emphasized how difficult Glen's comments made things. Every major instance like this in our franchise Glen "gets involved" and it becomes even more of a diasaster. Easily the worst owner in sports.

I was thinking the other day and started cringing thinking about possible comments Glen will make about Butler or the situation. I am sure there are owners out there that are at least as incompetent but are also jerks that keep Glen from being the absolute worst. James Dolan has to be up there.

[longstrangetrip [enjin:6600564]]

It depends on this Butler deal whether or not those boos continue. Who's to say Thibs doesn't get a good return -- much better than what the Heat have been leaking to the media -- and brings a young cornerstone to the franchise? More cheers than boos, I assure you.

Yes, I agree that there are scenarios where Thibs stays...two that I can think of:

1) the scenario you lay out, where a team really wants Butler and sends us a good return that Thibs can work successfuly with...preferable a wing who can make a three and shore up what looks to be the worst defense in the league right now. I don't foresee this happening, but if it did and the club started the season winning at the same pace it did last year, the boos might abate and Glen might bide his time before moving on Thibs.

2)more likely, no deal gets done before the season starts and Butler moves back into the starting lineup (as he indicated he would 4 days ago). This scenario might not be pretty...there's clearly not a lot of love between Butler and KAT/Wig. But Butler instantly transforms our defense, and we then have enough talent on the court to overcome the bad blood and Thibs' antiquated coaching, and a season of 45-48 wins slows down the boos and allows Thibs to keep his job until the end of the season.


I still think Thibs is gone before Christmas, but the above two scenarios are not out of the question.