Wolves vs Celtics (No Irving, Covington, Rose or Teague)

[longstrangetrip [enjin:6600564]]

Wigs starts missing free throws at exactly the wrong time. Sigh.

Ya. He's tired he is on 25 consecutive game minutes

Wow, yeah, he and Tyus have had no break.

I think alot of our 4th q mishaps the last couple of years can be attributed to thibs' mismanagement of minutes.

35 minutes are doable, but thibs consistently puts guys out there for 15+ minute stretches.

You are making up a false narrative this year. We have no player in the top 20 in minutes. Cov comes in 24th.

He was in a no win situation. We lose last night no matter what we did. Every single bench guy was trash. Kat was trash in the 1st half allowing a huge hole to dig out of in the 2nd half.

We weren't winning yesterday

The boy who cried THIBS!

Blaming Thibs for a horrible loss... when you missed the last three quarters is more than a bit over-the-top. The Celtics shot 59% for chrissakes. They were up by 18 points at halftime.

Bayless couldn't even execute calling a random timeout just beyond halfcourt without getting the ball stolen. James Nunnally came in for 3 minutes. In that time... a broken-down Gordon Hayward drove by him twice for easy buckets... not just for a layup. But he ended up ahead of Nunnally by several steps. It was alarming how bad the guy was defensively. I can't recall seeing another Wolves player beaten THAT badly... and obviously, that's saying something. The 3rd time Hayward got the ball vs. Nunnally, he drove by him again but passed out for a wide open three pointer.

Nunnally was unplayable. Literally... unplayable. But hey... Thibby Thibs Thibs THIBS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Please point out where I blamed Thibs for last night's loss, Abe. I literally just finished typing the opposite right before I read your post!

"I'm not willing to give thibs a break on this one, even with 3 players out. Yes, the bench was terrible last night, but I put that on Thibs too..."

Again, Abe...that's your interpretation that that quote is blaming Thibs for last night's loss. I don't...Boston is better than us, and I didn't see much chance of us winning last night before the game started. Certainly you can see that my point in that post is narrower than that. What I said was very specific...I said that I was not going to give Thibs a pass on not playing his bench last night. and that I continue to think the issues with Thibs' bench has more to do with him than his players. Two narrow specific points that I am willing to debate if you wish. Stevens plays guys named Ojeleye, Yabusele and Theis 43 minutes, and I would argue that has a lot to do with his success. He believes in and plays players that Thibs would never give a chance, and that is one of the reasons he is a better coach than Thibs.

[AbeVigodaLive]

To be fair... my premise is not that the board is unfair to Thibs.

It's that blaming coaches when players suck balls is the wrong take when discussing the NBA. It's giving players who suck balls an out they don't deserve... but I get it. Sorta.

As fans of the league's worst franchise, it's pretty disheartening if we think about it that we're looking at yet another lost season. It's pretty disheartening to realize that our fortunes are tied to a team that briefly had a bright future before burning out long before any kind of real success. It's pretty disheartening to realize there's no quick fix for the roster. There's no bright light down the road. There's only more hope. More hoping for luck. More hoping for something. Anything... so we can be like other franchises and root for a winner.

Blaming the players for our bleak future... is very bleak indeed. Because we're largely stuck with them. But a coach... there's no reason to be tied to a fat old guy on the sidelines. That's boring. So maybe by getting rid of him... we can hope for a brighter future. Hope to be like everybody else.

This post isn't meant to be condescending. I genuinely think optimistic fans should keep hope alive... and hope that a new coach can finally reach Wiggins and KAT and others. That a new coach can instill something we haven't thought about... something exciting. Something that changes our future.

Because if it's not the coach... then we have to look back on to those player who've we've invested our time and energy and dreams in... and we'll realize we've been duped and that the future is looking pretty rough.

Here's to hoping a new coach reaches these guys and brings the organization back to relevance. We can all hope for that.

[AbeVigodaLive]

Wigs starts missing free throws at exactly the wrong time. Sigh.

Ya. He's tired he is on 25 consecutive game minutes

Wow, yeah, he and Tyus have had no break.

I think alot of our 4th q mishaps the last couple of years can be attributed to thibs' mismanagement of minutes.

35 minutes are doable, but thibs consistently puts guys out there for 15+ minute stretches.

You are making up a false narrative this year. We have no player in the top 20 in minutes. Cov comes in 24th.

He was in a no win situation. We lose last night no matter what we did. Every single bench guy was trash. Kat was trash in the 1st half allowing a huge hole to dig out of in the 2nd half.

We weren't winning yesterday

The boy who cried THIBS!

Blaming Thibs for a horrible loss... when you missed the last three quarters is more than a bit over-the-top. The Celtics shot 59% for chrissakes. They were up by 18 points at halftime.

Bayless couldn't even execute calling a random timeout just beyond halfcourt without getting the ball stolen. James Nunnally came in for 3 minutes. In that time... a broken-down Gordon Hayward drove by him twice for easy buckets... not just for a layup. But he ended up ahead of Nunnally by several steps. It was alarming how bad the guy was defensively. I can't recall seeing another Wolves player beaten THAT badly... and obviously, that's saying something. The 3rd time Hayward got the ball vs. Nunnally, he drove by him again but passed out for a wide open three pointer.

Nunnally was unplayable. Literally... unplayable. But hey... Thibby Thibs Thibs THIBS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Please point out where I blamed Thibs for last night's loss, Abe. I literally just finished typing the opposite right before I read your post!

"I'm not willing to give thibs a break on this one, even with 3 players out. Yes, the bench was terrible last night, but I put that on Thibs too..."

Again, Abe...that's your interpretation that that quote is blaming Thibs for last night's loss. I don't...Boston is better than us, and I didn't see much chance of us winning last night before the game started. Certainly you can see that my point in that post is narrower than that. What I said was very specific...I said that I was not going to give Thibs a pass on not playing his bench last night. and that I continue to think the issues with Thibs' bench has more to do with him than his players. Two narrow specific points that I am willing to debate if you wish. Stevens plays guys named Ojeleye, Yabusele and Theis 43 minutes, and I would argue that has a lot to do with his success. He believes in and plays players that Thibs would never give a chance, and that is one of the reasons he is a better coach than Thibs.

Fair enough... and I pointed to two very specific examples that happened in a game you didn't really watch... to illustrate just how poorly those guys played last night.

As for Stevens... I love the guy. HUGE fan. And I'm a big Celtics fan as many people know. But, that's an entirely different team this season that has woefully underperformed.

Is it Stevens' fault... or the players? It might be interesting to see how Celtics forums have treated him this season. That team is arguably the deepest in the league. And very importantly, they have a clear system in place. They have an identity... sorta. But all that has been questioned at times this season because so many players aren't playing well.

How much of that is on Stevens?

Or is it because a young guy (Brown) went from one of the league's most promising starters to a bench guy and doesn't know how to handle it?

Is it because a guy (Rozier) hoping for a HUGE once-in-a-lifetime payday suddenly finds himself on the bench after a playoff run that might earn him tens of millions of dollars?

Is it because a former All Star (Hayward) is STILL recovering from a terrible injury and a shell of his former self (physically and mentally)... except against the Wolves? Let's not forget that Hayward did not score in his previous game before last night. He's sucked this season.

There are simply so many variables for NBA teams. Players. Coaches. Contracts. Girlfriends. Card game scuffles. Mental health issues. Drug and alcohol issues. Personality clashes. Et al.

As fans, we're not privy to most of those. But we do get to see the on-court product. And as noted, we can blame the players or the coaches... or some combination of them.

[longstrangetrip [enjin:6600564]]

I largely agree that players are more important than coaches. But then there are exceptions. It's my opinion that some coaches make players better, and some coaches don't. In general...of course there are always going to be exceptions. And unfortunately many of us here put Thibs in the second category, and think that holds us back. Rudy Gay is having a career year, and maybe it's just coincidence...but I prefer to think it may have more to do with how Pop has coached him compared to previous coaches. And maybe there is another reason for Aldrich, Tolliver and Bayless all entering the witness protection program under Thibs after playing significant minutes the prior year under different coaches, but my take is their floundering has more to do with Thibs than them...just hard for me to believe that all three forgot how to play basketball in the off-season (and I recognize that all three are marginal players...I just question why they can get minutes on successful teams and almost none with Thibs).

[AbeVigodaLive]

I largely agree that players are more important than coaches. But then there are exceptions. It's my opinion that some coaches make players better, and some coaches don't. In general...of course there are always going to be exceptions. And unfortunately many of us here put Thibs in the second category, and think that holds us back. Rudy Gay is having a career year, and maybe it's just coincidence...but I prefer to think it may have more to do with how Pop has coached him compared to previous coaches. And maybe there is another reason for Aldrich, Tolliver and Bayless all entering the witness protection program under Thibs after playing significant minutes the prior year under different coaches, but my take is their floundering has more to do with Thibs than them...just hard for me to believe that all three forgot how to play basketball in the off-season (and I recognize that all three are marginal players...I just question why they can get minutes on successful teams and almost none with Thibs).

- Jerryd Bayless started last season as a starter for Philadelphia! But look closer... they were 4 - 7 with him as a starter and he was removed from the rotation entirely less than halfway through the season. He only played in 39 games despite being healthy.

And as the team went 25 - 5 down the stretch... Bayless never saw the court. Not even once. Again... who should he be playing ahead of... he's a stopgap guy with no role on this team other than playing when two guys ahead of him are injured.

- Anthony Tolliver played for Detroit and Sacramento before landing in Minnesota. Sacramento sucked... and waived him. Detroit let him walk as a free agent. I just don't know who he should be playing ahead of right now. Saric? Gibson? Wiggins? Who do you sit in favor of a journeyman on a one-year deal?

- Aldrich had one shockingly sorta effective season in LA... after doing nothing for 4 other teams, including some crappy ones. He did so while playing a rim-running backup to D. Jordan while being surrounded by Blake Griffin, Chris Paul and JJ Redick. After being released by the Wolves, he was picked up by the lowly Atlanta Hawks... who cut him. He's not playing in the NBA. Maybe... he just sorta sucked and capitalized on a great situation to land a $21M deal?

[Wolvesfan21]

Abe- Is Nunnally and Bayless unplayable because Thibs picked them up or Thibs coached him? Once again, anyway you slice it, Thibs the PBO or Coach is the problem. Your choice is to select which Thibs is at fault.

Yes. [highlight=#ddd123]THIBS DESERVES TO BE FIRED!!!![/highlight] Literally, every person on this site agrees with this (I think).

So since we all agree on this... can we agree that it's possible to offer praise and criticism for the players from time to time without blaming Thibs?

In no way should you ever not blame Thibs though. Deflecting blame from him is nonsensical. Yes the players are at fault for sucking and Thibs is at fault for being a crappy coach/PBO. Both are the issue.

Do you disagree a coach like Stevens or Pop with this team for 3 years instead of Thibs would have them under .500? They'd be in the 3-5 seed range IMO this season. It doesn't take much to swing 6-7 games either way.

[highlight=#f3efb1]
NOBODY IS DEFLECTING BLAME... BUT IT'S LITERALLY IMPOSSIBLE TO BE ON THIS FORUM LATELY BECAUSE SOME POSTERS ARE BLAMING THIBS IN EVERY SINGLE POST... FREE THROWS -- BLAME THIBS!!! LAZY DEFENSE -- BLAME THIBS!!! BAD POST-GAME MEAL -- BLAME THIBS!!![/highlight]

Maybe I'm in the minority. I like to discuss people playing basketball... not loud overweight 55 year old men in suits.

I'm going back to the NBA history card. The entire 70-year history of the NBA has been built on the idea/reality that players win games... NOT coaches. It's been a superstar league in every way. Every single year. EVER.

This has to be the only fanbase (at least on this site) who remains convinced coaches are more important than players.

I'm not defending Thibs. I'm literally calling for him to be fired in nearly every single post I write at this point to prove it. I don't like him. I think he sucks. I think his system is antiquated and he's being tuned out by the players. I don't like listening to him on my television (although I love hearing the disdain for him in Jim Peterson's voice). I think the Wolves made a terrible mistake giving him the Executive gig, too. I don't like the type of PG he seems to like. I don't like that he hasn't embraced the modern NBA as other coaches. I don't like his interviews. I don't like how he looks. I think his hair is stupid looking. And I think he doesn't buy very good suits, relatively speaking.

But blaming him in every post makes this a tough board to participate in sometimes. Ultimately, that's on me. If that's what it is... it's what it is... and no amount of attempts at reason from the likes of me is going to change it. It's on me to leave if it comes to that.

End rant.

I see your point how it can be over the top. But like I said a million times, Thibs brought in the players and Thibs coached them. It's hard to discuss change without us first solving the person in charge of the ship.

Coaching matters more then you think it does. The Wolves are not that far off from being an upper tier team. You flip 6-7 games and that puts the Wolves in the upper tier. A good PBO and Coach can (Could have) do that.

Is Wigs savable with a better coach and utilization of his skills? Would KAT be even better of the ogre wasn't in charge potentially hindering his progress? These are big issues not to be underestimated.

Greak Freak played under a terrible coach last year he was amazing, Lebron played for a terrible coaches and he is amazing. Kat has played under the same head coach as wiggins and he is amazing.

Sure a coach can make you a little better, no doubt. But a coach doesn't turn a meh player of Wiggins into an all star player. It doesn't happen. You either have it or you don't. Wiggins doesn't have it and like cool pointed out that is why we are where we are because we needed Wiggins to be a star and he isn't.

Abe where do you work. I need a beer.

And it's not limited to the modern NBA. Do you guys realize just how bad some NBA coaches have been? Yet... there has not been a player who's been "meh" to "average at best" for three different coaches while not showing any meaningful statistical improvement for several seasons... who suddenly blew up and became an all-star player with a new coach. NEVER. (I'm sorta/kinda sure about this)

But hey... maybe the Wolves are the anomaly.

After all, we're the one organization who repeatedly picks terrible coaches who are to blame for on-court performance... Adelman, Mitchell, Thibs, et al.


[Note: It's definitely Beer:30.]

You are right that Wiggins probably won't be an AllStar. The chances are very slim I think. Though many players have developed later in their careers. I was looking at Kyle Lowry yesterday as a possible guy on the block in the offseason. He hardly even played his first 4 years in the NBA backing up whoever. His first year starting he (year 5) avg'd 13 pts. 3 years later he avg'd 11.6 starting. It took him till age 30 (10 years in the NBA) before he put it all together averaging 22.4 on impressive shooting becoming the elite PG he is (he could be tailing off now, who knows).

It's not impossible for Wiggins to turn it around in the next 3-5 years. He's still fairly young! Compared to me at least. lol

[AbeVigodaLive]

Abe- Is Nunnally and Bayless unplayable because Thibs picked them up or Thibs coached him? Once again, anyway you slice it, Thibs the PBO or Coach is the problem. Your choice is to select which Thibs is at fault.

Yes. [highlight=#ddd123]THIBS DESERVES TO BE FIRED!!!![/highlight] Literally, every person on this site agrees with this (I think).

So since we all agree on this... can we agree that it's possible to offer praise and criticism for the players from time to time without blaming Thibs?

In no way should you ever not blame Thibs though. Deflecting blame from him is nonsensical. Yes the players are at fault for sucking and Thibs is at fault for being a crappy coach/PBO. Both are the issue.

Do you disagree a coach like Stevens or Pop with this team for 3 years instead of Thibs would have them under .500? They'd be in the 3-5 seed range IMO this season. It doesn't take much to swing 6-7 games either way.

[highlight=#f3efb1]
NOBODY IS DEFLECTING BLAME... BUT IT'S LITERALLY IMPOSSIBLE TO BE ON THIS FORUM LATELY BECAUSE SOME POSTERS ARE BLAMING THIBS IN EVERY SINGLE POST... FREE THROWS -- BLAME THIBS!!! LAZY DEFENSE -- BLAME THIBS!!! BAD POST-GAME MEAL -- BLAME THIBS!!![/highlight]

And it's not limited to the modern NBA. Do you guys realize just how bad some NBA coaches have been? Yet... there has not been a player who's been "meh" to "average at best" for three different coaches while not showing any meaningful statistical improvement for several seasons... who suddenly blew up and became an all-star player with a new coach. NEVER. (I'm sorta/kinda sure about this)

But hey... maybe the Wolves are the anomaly.

After all, we're the one organization who repeatedly picks terrible coaches who are to blame for on-court performance... Adelman, Mitchell, Thibs, et al.


[Note: It's definitely Beer:30.]

You are right that Wiggins probably won't be an AllStar. The chances are very slim I think. Though many players have developed later in their careers. I was looking at Kyle Lowry yesterday as a possible guy on the block in the offseason. He hardly even played his first 4 years in the NBA backing up whoever. His first year starting he (year 5) avg'd 13 pts. 3 years later he avg'd 11.6 starting. It took him till age 30 (10 years in the NBA) before he put it all together averaging 22.4 on impressive shooting becoming the elite PG he is (he could be tailing off now, who knows).

It's not impossible for Wiggins to turn it around in the next 3-5 years. He's still fairly young! Compared to me at least. lol

Lowry is a good anomaly. It wasn't until he became an every game starter in Year 5 that he really started to develop. A lot of that was with developing a three point shot in Houston. He was a fine backup... and then improved once given starter minutes.

Chauncey Billups is another one. Neither guy had early career success, both were traded early in their careers... and neither guy was treated as a star or given huge contracts until they proved it on the court.

[Coolbreeze44]

I love this conversation. Steve Nash didn't average double figures until his 5th year in the league at the age of 26. He didn't do too badly after that. Paul Westphal didn't average double figures until he was 25. As a 24 year old playing 38 minutes per game, Jimmy Butler averaged 13 points. Alex English didn't become a starter in the NBA until he was 28 years old. Doug Christie struggled greatly until he was 26. John Starks became a regular starter at the age of 28. Detlef Schrempf didn't blossom until he was 27. Sam Cassell didn't score in double figures until he was 26. It wasn't until his 5th team at the age of 26 that Chauncey Billups became a star. Gary Payton never averaged 20 points until he was 26.

[Hicks123 [enjin:6700838]]

I love this conversation. Steve Nash didn't average double figures until his 5th year in the league at the age of 26. He didn't do too badly after that. Paul Westphal didn't average double figures until he was 25. As a 24 year old playing 38 minutes per game, Jimmy Butler averaged 13 points. Alex English didn't become a starter in the NBA until he was 28 years old. Doug Christie struggled greatly until he was 26. John Starks became a regular starter at the age of 28. Detlef Schrempf didn't blossom until he was 27. Sam Cassell didn't score in double figures until he was 26. It wasn't until his 5th team at the age of 26 that Chauncey Billups became a star. Gary Payton never averaged 20 points until he was 26.

I think the thing that is VERY different in this conversation is that many of these guys developed exponentially once they got a grip in NBA, and most importantly, were given high level minutes (after beginning careers as backups). The issue with Wiggins is that he has averaged starter minutes the instant he stepped into the NBA. Despite the minutes, the coaching, the practice, the games, he isn't getting better.

Interested.....are there any examples of players that played as much as Wiggins in first 5 seasons, and then all the sudden jumped in statistics in later 20's or something? Would be interested in examples.

[AbeVigodaLive]

I love this conversation. Steve Nash didn't average double figures until his 5th year in the league at the age of 26. He didn't do too badly after that. Paul Westphal didn't average double figures until he was 25. As a 24 year old playing 38 minutes per game, Jimmy Butler averaged 13 points. Alex English didn't become a starter in the NBA until he was 28 years old. Doug Christie struggled greatly until he was 26. John Starks became a regular starter at the age of 28. Detlef Schrempf didn't blossom until he was 27. Sam Cassell didn't score in double figures until he was 26. It wasn't until his 5th team at the age of 26 that Chauncey Billups became a star. Gary Payton never averaged 20 points until he was 26.

- Westphal was basically the same player. He simply got more minutes in Phoenix and it continued a gradual progression of improvement that he showed each of his first 6 seasons in the league. His PER went up fro 14.2 to 16.1 to 17.3 to 19.9 to 21.4 to 23.8... that's all pretty much normal and the way it usually works. Consider...

- English had a very similar trajectory... 14.8 to 17.4 to 17.6 to 18.0 to 19.7 to 22.2 to 24.1.

- Schrempf followed a similar trajectory... 10.9 to 13.7 to 14.2 to 15.3 to 17. 6 to 18.6 to 19.5.

- Sam Cassell followed a similar trajectory... 13.1 to 15.9 to 16.8 to 18.4 to 21.0 to 23.1.

- Gary Payton followed a similar trajectory... 13.2 dropped to 13.1 to 17.0 to 17.8 to 21.3. (what's crazy about Payton is how unfavorable DBPM treats what we considered one of the premier perimeter defenders of his era... it's basically average.)

- Even Doug Christie mostly follows a similar arc... 12.4 to 13.5 to... (-3.7 over 12 games after lading with the Knicks) to 15.1 to 16.2 to 16.9.

- John Starks even showed modest improvement... 10.3 to 14.3 to 16.4... and then he leveled off, hovering around the league average for his career and ending up at 14.0 PER. He generally remained a + player with a + VORP for about a decade. As a former CBA who was never even drafted... not bad.

- Jimmy Butler had one blip season (offensively) in his 3rd season and first as a starter when his shooting dipped and PER dipped. But, that's also the season that put him on the map defensively... it was his best season defensively... so his VORP actually improved... 0.1 to 2.1 to 2.9 to 4.2 in his first All Star season.

- As noted, Billups is sort of an anomaly, but not entirely. He did show improvement. 13.6 PER to 15.1 dropped to 10.5 (only 13 games) to 14.1 to 17.6 to 20.4 while bouncing among 5 different teams in his first 6 seasons.

- Steve Nash is bit of an outlier. 10.8 PER to 15.6 dropped to 10.9 (new team) to 13.5 to 19.6 to 20.7 to 22.6. Even while shooting an unimaginable 36% from the field in Year 3 during the lockout season, he had a positive VORP.

_____________

Now if we compare those guys to Wiggins PER: 13.9 to 16.5 to 16.5 to 13.0 to 12.2. Wiggins has also had a negative VORP for 5 seasons now, meaning statistically, he was worse than a random replacement player. What about the other guys... did they have any negative VORP seasons?

Steve Nash as a rookie.
Schrempf as a rookie.
English as a rookie.
Christie over a 12 game season.
Billups over a 13 game season.

Wiggins has already matched all of those players in his first 5 seasons.

_______________

So while I agree that some guys improve later in their careers. And that a new coach... or more likely... new organization... can change things. There simply isn't a lot of precedent I can think of for someone who's had Wiggins' career suddenly turning it around to any significant degree.

To add to that... I don't know how much stock any of you put into it... but I think it's very important -- Wiggins has already been paid. All of those other guys were trying to find themselves in the NBA so they could make the big bucks. Most of them were traded. Many of them multiple times. Eventually, each became successful to varying degrees... how much of that was motivation for a big payday (or even an NBA job).