lipoli390 wrote:You're right that 4 picks in the 20s is better than 2 picks in the 20s. But a deal with Miami would also likely include a proven young talented player named Josh Richardson and at least one other proven player (Olynyk, Whiteside or Adebayo, not Waiters). I wouldn't make draft picks the centerpiece of a Butler deal unless at least one of the picks was likely to be a lottery pick. Based on Houston's current roster and front office track record, I think it's highly unlikely any of the Houston picks would be lottery picks. When Boston traded down last summer for Tatum, they received Sacramento's 2019 pick, which at the time was highly likely to be not just a lottery pick but a high lottery pick. And that was just for moving up two spots in the draft. That's what good organizations do. They don't get all excited about 4 picks in the 20s spread over 7 years. It's fool's gold.
First, none of those Miami players are going to put the Wolves in the upper half of Western Conference teams. I'd much rather have the four Houston picks and go all in on "The Process" that once again gives hope of building a true championship contender instead of a short term pretender.
Second, the Wolves own picks will be much better without getting a couple decent, but not great players. The reality is trading Butler is going to be the start of another rebuild, mini or full is yet to be known. Would they really be better off if their own picks are also middling because a Richardson type player kept them good, but not good enough?
I do see your point in going all in "the process." My meh reaction to this deal stems from my view that all four Houston picks are likely to be in the 20s. However, the logic in trusting "the process" by taking the Houston offer is the likelihood that the Wolves' own pick will be in the lottery next June and perhaps the next year as well. So I can't say I hate the idea.
monsterpile wrote:Lip if it was offered would you do an Eric Gordon and Chriss plus 4 first round picks for Butler? Keep in mind Chriss has advanced stats that showed he was a positive on the defensive end playing on the Suns...the Suns. I'm far from a Chriss believer although I saw the theory of his "upside" but I didn't think love the chances of him reaching in the draft. I think he is a decent young asset and Gordon would not be just a dead salary like Knight or Waiters.
If it's Gordon and Chriss, I can see doing that deal, provided the last three picks are not lottery protected. Chriss is still only 21 years old so I see him as a young talent with potential who's shown that he can play at the NBA level. Whether it's Gordon or Knight wouldn't matter to me. But I'd still prefer getting Richardson and Adebayo - two young talents who have proven they can play well at the NBA level. Cam said Butler's value would go up if we waited. Well, the Houston offer might drive up Butler's market value. So now is the time to strike and I strongly suspect that Pat Riley will improve his last offer. I'll take Richardson and Adebayo plus Miami's 2019 first over 4 first round picks likely to be in the 20s.
Otherwise, I wouldn't complain about getting the 4 picks from Houston plus Chriss, provided again that the last three picks aren't lottery protected. And I see Kahn's logic in suggesting Houston will become a lottery team by the time of our last couple picks.
Thanks for the response Lip. A couple things to add.
Basically for this deal to happen I don't think any of them can be protected because they have to be fulfilled in the 7 year time frame. If that's the way it is...it makes it pretty valueable because you just don't know what could happen. It also ales me a bit skeptical it's real but hell if I thought getting Butler gave me a real chance at a title the next 2 years I'd consider it.
i get that Gordon or Knight probably isn't a dealbreaker in general but Gordonnis a plus as at worst a valuable 6th man. Knight is a guy that the last season he played was a Crawford level advanced stats bad (actually so think it was even worse and doesn't bring the nifty vet leadership awesome dude vibe) plus he can't stay healthy. So you have at worst a neutral contract player instead of a massive negative. Also Gordon can absolutely play which might help Glen and Thibs pull the trigger. :)
IF the Rockets do this deal of let's just say Knight and Chriss for Butler...that means we suddenly have some space below the lux tax to offer a player some money above a vet min deal this season. I really don't know if Patrick McCaw is worth it (that's a strange deal Over there) but maybe we offer him some money and opportunity to play and we get a potentially intruiging player for basically nothing.
Speaking of opportunity let's say we do suck and Okogie or someone else doesn't step up to be that next wing player next to Wiggins. Guess who would have a possible wide open starting spot regardless of how much money we have to offer? This team. Someone that's moderatly worthwhile would likely take a decent amount of money on a 1 year deal to be a full time starter here.
Bonus point. If we suck...fine we get a better draft pick. That could be another upside of dealing Butler now. I've seen some positives from this team (and Thibs) along with some injuries already hitting other teams that it's even possible this team might actually not suck the whole year if Butler is dealt. This team is flawed without Butler but it's also not the preseason team we saw either.
Nice job making the case, Monster. As you know, I've been among those wanting to deal Butler sooner rather than later. But I think it's important to get at least one young promising player in the deal unless we get picks that are likely to be lottery picks. The Houston picks are likely to be in the 20s based on the players they have now and the recent track record of that organization finding ways to position itself as a contender.
I'd deal Butler to Boston for Hayward if we also received the 2019 Sacramento pick, which is highly likely to be a high lottery pick. Give me Hayward, the 2019 Kings pick and the Memphis pick, which is only 1-8 protected in 2019, 1-6 protected in 2020 and unprotected in 2021. That's a deal I'd get excited about. I'd even through in Justin Patton. Would Boston do this deal? I have no idea and no one has reported that Boston has any interest in Butler. But I actually think it would be a great deal for Boston. Butler along with Tatum, Kyrie, Horford, Brown and Smart has the makings of a team that could get past Toronto and actually give the Warriors a run for their money. Boston would still have all their own 1st round picks to go with a lot of young talent in Tatum, Brown, Smart and even Kyrie, who is only 25 or 26.
But if I'm just getting 4 picks in the 20s spread over 7 years and no talented young prospects, I just can't get excited.
Is BOS making that offer?
No Boston offer has been reported. I have no idea whether Boston has made or would make that offer. But if I were Thibodeau, I'd definitely make that offer. And I'd do it now in the immediate aftermath of the report about the Houston offer. I'd also call Pat Riley and tell him that he can hang up on me again or take one last shot at a reasonable deal for Butler.
First off, having Pat Riley whine at you because he's not getting his way is a badge of honor.
Second, you can only do the trades that are in front of you. Four 1sts/3 flips/5 2nds is very fair for JimmyBricks and anyone else other than KAT and Okogie.
I agree Riley whining at you is a badge of honor. The thrust of my post wasn't to gravel at Riley's feet. Instead, I'd envision Thibodeau going back to him from a position of strength and giving him one last chance to put up or shut up in his pursuit of Butler in the midst of a publicly reported offer from the Rockets.
lipoli390 wrote:
JasonIsDaMan wrote:
lipoli390 wrote:
JasonIsDaMan wrote:
lipoli390 wrote:
monsterpile wrote:2 more points.
IF the Rockets do this deal of let's just say Knight and Chriss for Butler...that means we suddenly have some space below the lux tax to offer a player some money above a vet min deal this season. I really don't know if Patrick McCaw is worth it (that's a strange deal Over there) but maybe we offer him some money and opportunity to play and we get a potentially intruiging player for basically nothing.
Speaking of opportunity let's say we do suck and Okogie or someone else doesn't step up to be that next wing player next to Wiggins. Guess who would have a possible wide open starting spot regardless of how much money we have to offer? This team. Someone that's moderatly worthwhile would likely take a decent amount of money on a 1 year deal to be a full time starter here.
Bonus point. If we suck...fine we get a better draft pick. That could be another upside of dealing Butler now. I've seen some positives from this team (and Thibs) along with some injuries already hitting other teams that it's even possible this team might actually not suck the whole year if Butler is dealt. This team is flawed without Butler but it's also not the preseason team we saw either.
Nice job making the case, Monster. As you know, I've been among those wanting to deal Butler sooner rather than later. But I think it's important to get at least one young promising player in the deal unless we get picks that are likely to be lottery picks. The Houston picks are likely to be in the 20s based on the players they have now and the recent track record of that organization finding ways to position itself as a contender.
I'd deal Butler to Boston for Hayward if we also received the 2019 Sacramento pick, which is highly likely to be a high lottery pick. Give me Hayward, the 2019 Kings pick and the Memphis pick, which is only 1-8 protected in 2019, 1-6 protected in 2020 and unprotected in 2021. That's a deal I'd get excited about. I'd even through in Justin Patton. Would Boston do this deal? I have no idea and no one has reported that Boston has any interest in Butler. But I actually think it would be a great deal for Boston. Butler along with Tatum, Kyrie, Horford, Brown and Smart has the makings of a team that could get past Toronto and actually give the Warriors a run for their money. Boston would still have all their own 1st round picks to go with a lot of young talent in Tatum, Brown, Smart and even Kyrie, who is only 25 or 26.
But if I'm just getting 4 picks in the 20s spread over 7 years and no talented young prospects, I just can't get excited.
Is BOS making that offer?
No Boston offer has been reported. I have no idea whether Boston has made or would make that offer. But if I were Thibodeau, I'd definitely make that offer. And I'd do it now in the immediate aftermath of the report about the Houston offer. I'd also call Pat Riley and tell him that he can hang up on me again or take one last shot at a reasonable deal for Butler.
First off, having Pat Riley whine at you because he's not getting his way is a badge of honor.
Second, you can only do the trades that are in front of you. Four 1sts/3 flips/5 2nds is very fair for JimmyBricks and anyone else other than KAT and Okogie.
I agree Riley whining at you is a badge of honor. The thrust of my post wasn't to gravel at Riley's feet. Instead, I'd envision Thibodeau going back to him from a position of strength and giving him one last chance to put up or shut up in his pursuit of Butler in the midst of a publicly reported offer from the Rockets.
Here's the thing: So now MIA does two picks, which will also be in the 20's? I don't see how that's better than 4. And like I said, maybe HOU also agrees to swap on the other 3 years. And their 2nd's. So if they go in the tank like Brooklyn that's a great haul. And if they don't, it's a GOOD haul. I just don't see MIA doing the same deal. But yeah, if they do, I like the current players they would move better than HOU's.
You're right that 4 picks in the 20s is better than 2 picks in the 20s. But a deal with Miami would also likely include a proven young talented player named Josh Richardson and at least one other proven player (Olynyk, Whiteside or Adebayo, not Waiters). I wouldn't make draft picks the centerpiece of a Butler deal unless at least one of the picks was likely to be a lottery pick. Based on Houston's current roster and front office track record, I think it's highly unlikely any of the Houston picks would be lottery picks. When Boston traded down last summer for Tatum, they received Sacramento's 2019 pick, which at the time was highly likely to be not just a lottery pick but a high lottery pick. And that was just for moving up two spots in the draft. That's what good organizations do. They don't get all excited about 4 picks in the 20s spread over 7 years. It's fool's gold.
They also were trading the #1 overall pick. The receiving team gets to take their favorite player in the draft and essentially locks them in for 10 years. It was also with a Sixer's team who thought that Fultz was the perfect piece to pair with Simmons and Embiid, and the trade was conducted by the boneheaded Colangelo.
Apples to oranges.
TheFuture wrote:
lipoli390 wrote:
JasonIsDaMan wrote:
lipoli390 wrote:
JasonIsDaMan wrote:
lipoli390 wrote:
JasonIsDaMan wrote:
lipoli390 wrote:
monsterpile wrote:2 more points.
IF the Rockets do this deal of let's just say Knight and Chriss for Butler...that means we suddenly have some space below the lux tax to offer a player some money above a vet min deal this season. I really don't know if Patrick McCaw is worth it (that's a strange deal Over there) but maybe we offer him some money and opportunity to play and we get a potentially intruiging player for basically nothing.
Speaking of opportunity let's say we do suck and Okogie or someone else doesn't step up to be that next wing player next to Wiggins. Guess who would have a possible wide open starting spot regardless of how much money we have to offer? This team. Someone that's moderatly worthwhile would likely take a decent amount of money on a 1 year deal to be a full time starter here.
Bonus point. If we suck...fine we get a better draft pick. That could be another upside of dealing Butler now. I've seen some positives from this team (and Thibs) along with some injuries already hitting other teams that it's even possible this team might actually not suck the whole year if Butler is dealt. This team is flawed without Butler but it's also not the preseason team we saw either.
Nice job making the case, Monster. As you know, I've been among those wanting to deal Butler sooner rather than later. But I think it's important to get at least one young promising player in the deal unless we get picks that are likely to be lottery picks. The Houston picks are likely to be in the 20s based on the players they have now and the recent track record of that organization finding ways to position itself as a contender.
I'd deal Butler to Boston for Hayward if we also received the 2019 Sacramento pick, which is highly likely to be a high lottery pick. Give me Hayward, the 2019 Kings pick and the Memphis pick, which is only 1-8 protected in 2019, 1-6 protected in 2020 and unprotected in 2021. That's a deal I'd get excited about. I'd even through in Justin Patton. Would Boston do this deal? I have no idea and no one has reported that Boston has any interest in Butler. But I actually think it would be a great deal for Boston. Butler along with Tatum, Kyrie, Horford, Brown and Smart has the makings of a team that could get past Toronto and actually give the Warriors a run for their money. Boston would still have all their own 1st round picks to go with a lot of young talent in Tatum, Brown, Smart and even Kyrie, who is only 25 or 26.
But if I'm just getting 4 picks in the 20s spread over 7 years and no talented young prospects, I just can't get excited.
Is BOS making that offer?
No Boston offer has been reported. I have no idea whether Boston has made or would make that offer. But if I were Thibodeau, I'd definitely make that offer. And I'd do it now in the immediate aftermath of the report about the Houston offer. I'd also call Pat Riley and tell him that he can hang up on me again or take one last shot at a reasonable deal for Butler.
First off, having Pat Riley whine at you because he's not getting his way is a badge of honor.
Second, you can only do the trades that are in front of you. Four 1sts/3 flips/5 2nds is very fair for JimmyBricks and anyone else other than KAT and Okogie.
I agree Riley whining at you is a badge of honor. The thrust of my post wasn't to gravel at Riley's feet. Instead, I'd envision Thibodeau going back to him from a position of strength and giving him one last chance to put up or shut up in his pursuit of Butler in the midst of a publicly reported offer from the Rockets.
lipoli390 wrote:
JasonIsDaMan wrote:
lipoli390 wrote:
JasonIsDaMan wrote:
lipoli390 wrote:
monsterpile wrote:2 more points.
IF the Rockets do this deal of let's just say Knight and Chriss for Butler...that means we suddenly have some space below the lux tax to offer a player some money above a vet min deal this season. I really don't know if Patrick McCaw is worth it (that's a strange deal Over there) but maybe we offer him some money and opportunity to play and we get a potentially intruiging player for basically nothing.
Speaking of opportunity let's say we do suck and Okogie or someone else doesn't step up to be that next wing player next to Wiggins. Guess who would have a possible wide open starting spot regardless of how much money we have to offer? This team. Someone that's moderatly worthwhile would likely take a decent amount of money on a 1 year deal to be a full time starter here.
Bonus point. If we suck...fine we get a better draft pick. That could be another upside of dealing Butler now. I've seen some positives from this team (and Thibs) along with some injuries already hitting other teams that it's even possible this team might actually not suck the whole year if Butler is dealt. This team is flawed without Butler but it's also not the preseason team we saw either.
Nice job making the case, Monster. As you know, I've been among those wanting to deal Butler sooner rather than later. But I think it's important to get at least one young promising player in the deal unless we get picks that are likely to be lottery picks. The Houston picks are likely to be in the 20s based on the players they have now and the recent track record of that organization finding ways to position itself as a contender.
I'd deal Butler to Boston for Hayward if we also received the 2019 Sacramento pick, which is highly likely to be a high lottery pick. Give me Hayward, the 2019 Kings pick and the Memphis pick, which is only 1-8 protected in 2019, 1-6 protected in 2020 and unprotected in 2021. That's a deal I'd get excited about. I'd even through in Justin Patton. Would Boston do this deal? I have no idea and no one has reported that Boston has any interest in Butler. But I actually think it would be a great deal for Boston. Butler along with Tatum, Kyrie, Horford, Brown and Smart has the makings of a team that could get past Toronto and actually give the Warriors a run for their money. Boston would still have all their own 1st round picks to go with a lot of young talent in Tatum, Brown, Smart and even Kyrie, who is only 25 or 26.
But if I'm just getting 4 picks in the 20s spread over 7 years and no talented young prospects, I just can't get excited.
Is BOS making that offer?
No Boston offer has been reported. I have no idea whether Boston has made or would make that offer. But if I were Thibodeau, I'd definitely make that offer. And I'd do it now in the immediate aftermath of the report about the Houston offer. I'd also call Pat Riley and tell him that he can hang up on me again or take one last shot at a reasonable deal for Butler.
First off, having Pat Riley whine at you because he's not getting his way is a badge of honor.
Second, you can only do the trades that are in front of you. Four 1sts/3 flips/5 2nds is very fair for JimmyBricks and anyone else other than KAT and Okogie.
I agree Riley whining at you is a badge of honor. The thrust of my post wasn't to gravel at Riley's feet. Instead, I'd envision Thibodeau going back to him from a position of strength and giving him one last chance to put up or shut up in his pursuit of Butler in the midst of a publicly reported offer from the Rockets.
Here's the thing: So now MIA does two picks, which will also be in the 20's? I don't see how that's better than 4. And like I said, maybe HOU also agrees to swap on the other 3 years. And their 2nd's. So if they go in the tank like Brooklyn that's a great haul. And if they don't, it's a GOOD haul. I just don't see MIA doing the same deal. But yeah, if they do, I like the current players they would move better than HOU's.
You're right that 4 picks in the 20s is better than 2 picks in the 20s. But a deal with Miami would also likely include a proven young talented player named Josh Richardson and at least one other proven player (Olynyk, Whiteside or Adebayo, not Waiters). I wouldn't make draft picks the centerpiece of a Butler deal unless at least one of the picks was likely to be a lottery pick. Based on Houston's current roster and front office track record, I think it's highly unlikely any of the Houston picks would be lottery picks. When Boston traded down last summer for Tatum, they received Sacramento's 2019 pick, which at the time was highly likely to be not just a lottery pick but a high lottery pick. And that was just for moving up two spots in the draft. That's what good organizations do. They don't get all excited about 4 picks in the 20s spread over 7 years. It's fool's gold.
They also were trading the #1 overall pick. The receiving team gets to take their favorite player in the draft and essentially locks them in for 10 years. It was also with a Sixer's team who thought that Fultz was the perfect piece to pair with Simmons and Embiid, and the trade was conducted by the boneheaded Colangelo.
Apples to oranges.
My point wasn't to compare the two deals. My point was that you shouldn't make draft picks the centerpiece of a deal in which your giving up a really valueable asset unless at least one of the picks your get is likely to be a lottery pick. The Sixers traded up only two spots, yet gave up a surefire lottery pick. Yes, they really wanted Fultz, but they had a lot of very talented options at #3. The question is whether there are any teams with a likely future lottery pick who really want Butler the way the Sixers apparently wanted Fultz. There may be no such teams. Or maybe one of the last two Houston picks is likely to be a lottery pick. But otherwise, picks in the 20s are nothing to get excited about in my view.
IF the Rockets do this deal of let's just say Knight and Chriss for Butler...that means we suddenly have some space below the lux tax to offer a player some money above a vet min deal this season. I really don't know if Patrick McCaw is worth it (that's a strange deal Over there) but maybe we offer him some money and opportunity to play and we get a potentially intruiging player for basically nothing.
Speaking of opportunity let's say we do suck and Okogie or someone else doesn't step up to be that next wing player next to Wiggins. Guess who would have a possible wide open starting spot regardless of how much money we have to offer? This team. Someone that's moderatly worthwhile would likely take a decent amount of money on a 1 year deal to be a full time starter here.
Bonus point. If we suck...fine we get a better draft pick. That could be another upside of dealing Butler now. I've seen some positives from this team (and Thibs) along with some injuries already hitting other teams that it's even possible this team might actually not suck the whole year if Butler is dealt. This team is flawed without Butler but it's also not the preseason team we saw either.
Nice job making the case, Monster. As you know, I've been among those wanting to deal Butler sooner rather than later. But I think it's important to get at least one young promising player in the deal unless we get picks that are likely to be lottery picks. The Houston picks are likely to be in the 20s based on the players they have now and the recent track record of that organization finding ways to position itself as a contender.
I'd deal Butler to Boston for Hayward if we also received the 2019 Sacramento pick, which is highly likely to be a high lottery pick. Give me Hayward, the 2019 Kings pick and the Memphis pick, which is only 1-8 protected in 2019, 1-6 protected in 2020 and unprotected in 2021. That's a deal I'd get excited about. I'd even through in Justin Patton. Would Boston do this deal? I have no idea and no one has reported that Boston has any interest in Butler. But I actually think it would be a great deal for Boston. Butler along with Tatum, Kyrie, Horford, Brown and Smart has the makings of a team that could get past Toronto and actually give the Warriors a run for their money. Boston would still have all their own 1st round picks to go with a lot of young talent in Tatum, Brown, Smart and even Kyrie, who is only 25 or 26.
But if I'm just getting 4 picks in the 20s spread over 7 years and no talented young prospects, I just can't get excited.
Is BOS making that offer?
No Boston offer has been reported. I have no idea whether Boston has made or would make that offer. But if I were Thibodeau, I'd definitely make that offer. And I'd do it now in the immediate aftermath of the report about the Houston offer. I'd also call Pat Riley and tell him that he can hang up on me again or take one last shot at a reasonable deal for Butler.
First off, having Pat Riley whine at you because he's not getting his way is a badge of honor.
Second, you can only do the trades that are in front of you. Four 1sts/3 flips/5 2nds is very fair for JimmyBricks and anyone else other than KAT and Okogie.
I agree Riley whining at you is a badge of honor. The thrust of my post wasn't to gravel at Riley's feet. Instead, I'd envision Thibodeau going back to him from a position of strength and giving him one last chance to put up or shut up in his pursuit of Butler in the midst of a publicly reported offer from the Rockets.
lipoli390 wrote:
JasonIsDaMan wrote:
lipoli390 wrote:
JasonIsDaMan wrote:
lipoli390 wrote:
monsterpile wrote:2 more points.
IF the Rockets do this deal of let's just say Knight and Chriss for Butler...that means we suddenly have some space below the lux tax to offer a player some money above a vet min deal this season. I really don't know if Patrick McCaw is worth it (that's a strange deal Over there) but maybe we offer him some money and opportunity to play and we get a potentially intruiging player for basically nothing.
Speaking of opportunity let's say we do suck and Okogie or someone else doesn't step up to be that next wing player next to Wiggins. Guess who would have a possible wide open starting spot regardless of how much money we have to offer? This team. Someone that's moderatly worthwhile would likely take a decent amount of money on a 1 year deal to be a full time starter here.
Bonus point. If we suck...fine we get a better draft pick. That could be another upside of dealing Butler now. I've seen some positives from this team (and Thibs) along with some injuries already hitting other teams that it's even possible this team might actually not suck the whole year if Butler is dealt. This team is flawed without Butler but it's also not the preseason team we saw either.
Nice job making the case, Monster. As you know, I've been among those wanting to deal Butler sooner rather than later. But I think it's important to get at least one young promising player in the deal unless we get picks that are likely to be lottery picks. The Houston picks are likely to be in the 20s based on the players they have now and the recent track record of that organization finding ways to position itself as a contender.
I'd deal Butler to Boston for Hayward if we also received the 2019 Sacramento pick, which is highly likely to be a high lottery pick. Give me Hayward, the 2019 Kings pick and the Memphis pick, which is only 1-8 protected in 2019, 1-6 protected in 2020 and unprotected in 2021. That's a deal I'd get excited about. I'd even through in Justin Patton. Would Boston do this deal? I have no idea and no one has reported that Boston has any interest in Butler. But I actually think it would be a great deal for Boston. Butler along with Tatum, Kyrie, Horford, Brown and Smart has the makings of a team that could get past Toronto and actually give the Warriors a run for their money. Boston would still have all their own 1st round picks to go with a lot of young talent in Tatum, Brown, Smart and even Kyrie, who is only 25 or 26.
But if I'm just getting 4 picks in the 20s spread over 7 years and no talented young prospects, I just can't get excited.
Is BOS making that offer?
No Boston offer has been reported. I have no idea whether Boston has made or would make that offer. But if I were Thibodeau, I'd definitely make that offer. And I'd do it now in the immediate aftermath of the report about the Houston offer. I'd also call Pat Riley and tell him that he can hang up on me again or take one last shot at a reasonable deal for Butler.
First off, having Pat Riley whine at you because he's not getting his way is a badge of honor.
Second, you can only do the trades that are in front of you. Four 1sts/3 flips/5 2nds is very fair for JimmyBricks and anyone else other than KAT and Okogie.
I agree Riley whining at you is a badge of honor. The thrust of my post wasn't to gravel at Riley's feet. Instead, I'd envision Thibodeau going back to him from a position of strength and giving him one last chance to put up or shut up in his pursuit of Butler in the midst of a publicly reported offer from the Rockets.
Here's the thing: So now MIA does two picks, which will also be in the 20's? I don't see how that's better than 4. And like I said, maybe HOU also agrees to swap on the other 3 years. And their 2nd's. So if they go in the tank like Brooklyn that's a great haul. And if they don't, it's a GOOD haul. I just don't see MIA doing the same deal. But yeah, if they do, I like the current players they would move better than HOU's.
You're right that 4 picks in the 20s is better than 2 picks in the 20s. But a deal with Miami would also likely include a proven young talented player named Josh Richardson and at least one other proven player (Olynyk, Whiteside or Adebayo, not Waiters). I wouldn't make draft picks the centerpiece of a Butler deal unless at least one of the picks was likely to be a lottery pick. Based on Houston's current roster and front office track record, I think it's highly unlikely any of the Houston picks would be lottery picks. When Boston traded down last summer for Tatum, they received Sacramento's 2019 pick, which at the time was highly likely to be not just a lottery pick but a high lottery pick. And that was just for moving up two spots in the draft. That's what good organizations do. They don't get all excited about 4 picks in the 20s spread over 7 years. It's fool's gold.
They also were trading the #1 overall pick. The receiving team gets to take their favorite player in the draft and essentially locks them in for 10 years. It was also with a Sixer's team who thought that Fultz was the perfect piece to pair with Simmons and Embiid, and the trade was conducted by the boneheaded Colangelo.
Apples to oranges.
TheFuture wrote:
lipoli390 wrote:
JasonIsDaMan wrote:
lipoli390 wrote:
JasonIsDaMan wrote:
lipoli390 wrote:
JasonIsDaMan wrote:
lipoli390 wrote:
monsterpile wrote:2 more points.
IF the Rockets do this deal of let's just say Knight and Chriss for Butler...that means we suddenly have some space below the lux tax to offer a player some money above a vet min deal this season. I really don't know if Patrick McCaw is worth it (that's a strange deal Over there) but maybe we offer him some money and opportunity to play and we get a potentially intruiging player for basically nothing.
Speaking of opportunity let's say we do suck and Okogie or someone else doesn't step up to be that next wing player next to Wiggins. Guess who would have a possible wide open starting spot regardless of how much money we have to offer? This team. Someone that's moderatly worthwhile would likely take a decent amount of money on a 1 year deal to be a full time starter here.
Bonus point. If we suck...fine we get a better draft pick. That could be another upside of dealing Butler now. I've seen some positives from this team (and Thibs) along with some injuries already hitting other teams that it's even possible this team might actually not suck the whole year if Butler is dealt. This team is flawed without Butler but it's also not the preseason team we saw either.
Nice job making the case, Monster. As you know, I've been among those wanting to deal Butler sooner rather than later. But I think it's important to get at least one young promising player in the deal unless we get picks that are likely to be lottery picks. The Houston picks are likely to be in the 20s based on the players they have now and the recent track record of that organization finding ways to position itself as a contender.
I'd deal Butler to Boston for Hayward if we also received the 2019 Sacramento pick, which is highly likely to be a high lottery pick. Give me Hayward, the 2019 Kings pick and the Memphis pick, which is only 1-8 protected in 2019, 1-6 protected in 2020 and unprotected in 2021. That's a deal I'd get excited about. I'd even through in Justin Patton. Would Boston do this deal? I have no idea and no one has reported that Boston has any interest in Butler. But I actually think it would be a great deal for Boston. Butler along with Tatum, Kyrie, Horford, Brown and Smart has the makings of a team that could get past Toronto and actually give the Warriors a run for their money. Boston would still have all their own 1st round picks to go with a lot of young talent in Tatum, Brown, Smart and even Kyrie, who is only 25 or 26.
But if I'm just getting 4 picks in the 20s spread over 7 years and no talented young prospects, I just can't get excited.
Is BOS making that offer?
No Boston offer has been reported. I have no idea whether Boston has made or would make that offer. But if I were Thibodeau, I'd definitely make that offer. And I'd do it now in the immediate aftermath of the report about the Houston offer. I'd also call Pat Riley and tell him that he can hang up on me again or take one last shot at a reasonable deal for Butler.
First off, having Pat Riley whine at you because he's not getting his way is a badge of honor.
Second, you can only do the trades that are in front of you. Four 1sts/3 flips/5 2nds is very fair for JimmyBricks and anyone else other than KAT and Okogie.
I agree Riley whining at you is a badge of honor. The thrust of my post wasn't to gravel at Riley's feet. Instead, I'd envision Thibodeau going back to him from a position of strength and giving him one last chance to put up or shut up in his pursuit of Butler in the midst of a publicly reported offer from the Rockets.
lipoli390 wrote:
JasonIsDaMan wrote:
lipoli390 wrote:
JasonIsDaMan wrote:
lipoli390 wrote:
monsterpile wrote:2 more points.
IF the Rockets do this deal of let's just say Knight and Chriss for Butler...that means we suddenly have some space below the lux tax to offer a player some money above a vet min deal this season. I really don't know if Patrick McCaw is worth it (that's a strange deal Over there) but maybe we offer him some money and opportunity to play and we get a potentially intruiging player for basically nothing.
Speaking of opportunity let's say we do suck and Okogie or someone else doesn't step up to be that next wing player next to Wiggins. Guess who would have a possible wide open starting spot regardless of how much money we have to offer? This team. Someone that's moderatly worthwhile would likely take a decent amount of money on a 1 year deal to be a full time starter here.
Bonus point. If we suck...fine we get a better draft pick. That could be another upside of dealing Butler now. I've seen some positives from this team (and Thibs) along with some injuries already hitting other teams that it's even possible this team might actually not suck the whole year if Butler is dealt. This team is flawed without Butler but it's also not the preseason team we saw either.
Nice job making the case, Monster. As you know, I've been among those wanting to deal Butler sooner rather than later. But I think it's important to get at least one young promising player in the deal unless we get picks that are likely to be lottery picks. The Houston picks are likely to be in the 20s based on the players they have now and the recent track record of that organization finding ways to position itself as a contender.
I'd deal Butler to Boston for Hayward if we also received the 2019 Sacramento pick, which is highly likely to be a high lottery pick. Give me Hayward, the 2019 Kings pick and the Memphis pick, which is only 1-8 protected in 2019, 1-6 protected in 2020 and unprotected in 2021. That's a deal I'd get excited about. I'd even through in Justin Patton. Would Boston do this deal? I have no idea and no one has reported that Boston has any interest in Butler. But I actually think it would be a great deal for Boston. Butler along with Tatum, Kyrie, Horford, Brown and Smart has the makings of a team that could get past Toronto and actually give the Warriors a run for their money. Boston would still have all their own 1st round picks to go with a lot of young talent in Tatum, Brown, Smart and even Kyrie, who is only 25 or 26.
But if I'm just getting 4 picks in the 20s spread over 7 years and no talented young prospects, I just can't get excited.
Is BOS making that offer?
No Boston offer has been reported. I have no idea whether Boston has made or would make that offer. But if I were Thibodeau, I'd definitely make that offer. And I'd do it now in the immediate aftermath of the report about the Houston offer. I'd also call Pat Riley and tell him that he can hang up on me again or take one last shot at a reasonable deal for Butler.
First off, having Pat Riley whine at you because he's not getting his way is a badge of honor.
Second, you can only do the trades that are in front of you. Four 1sts/3 flips/5 2nds is very fair for JimmyBricks and anyone else other than KAT and Okogie.
I agree Riley whining at you is a badge of honor. The thrust of my post wasn't to gravel at Riley's feet. Instead, I'd envision Thibodeau going back to him from a position of strength and giving him one last chance to put up or shut up in his pursuit of Butler in the midst of a publicly reported offer from the Rockets.
Here's the thing: So now MIA does two picks, which will also be in the 20's? I don't see how that's better than 4. And like I said, maybe HOU also agrees to swap on the other 3 years. And their 2nd's. So if they go in the tank like Brooklyn that's a great haul. And if they don't, it's a GOOD haul. I just don't see MIA doing the same deal. But yeah, if they do, I like the current players they would move better than HOU's.
You're right that 4 picks in the 20s is better than 2 picks in the 20s. But a deal with Miami would also likely include a proven young talented player named Josh Richardson and at least one other proven player (Olynyk, Whiteside or Adebayo, not Waiters). I wouldn't make draft picks the centerpiece of a Butler deal unless at least one of the picks was likely to be a lottery pick. Based on Houston's current roster and front office track record, I think it's highly unlikely any of the Houston picks would be lottery picks. When Boston traded down last summer for Tatum, they received Sacramento's 2019 pick, which at the time was highly likely to be not just a lottery pick but a high lottery pick. And that was just for moving up two spots in the draft. That's what good organizations do. They don't get all excited about 4 picks in the 20s spread over 7 years. It's fool's gold.
They also were trading the #1 overall pick. The receiving team gets to take their favorite player in the draft and essentially locks them in for 10 years. It was also with a Sixer's team who thought that Fultz was the perfect piece to pair with Simmons and Embiid, and the trade was conducted by the boneheaded Colangelo.
Apples to oranges.
My point wasn't to compare the two deals. My point was that you shouldn't make draft picks the centerpiece of a deal in which your giving up a really valueable asset unless at least one of the picks you get is likely to be a lottery pick. The Sixers traded up only two spots, yet gave up a surefire lottery pick. Yes, they really wanted Fultz, but they had a lot of very talented options at #3. The question is whether there are any teams with a likely future lottery pick who really want Butler the way the Sixers apparently wanted Fultz. There may be no such teams. Or maybe one of the last two Houston picks is likely to be a lottery pick. But otherwise, picks in the 20s are nothing to get excited about in my view.
monsterpile wrote:Lip if it was offered would you do an Eric Gordon and Chriss plus 4 first round picks for Butler? Keep in mind Chriss has advanced stats that showed he was a positive on the defensive end playing on the Suns...the Suns. I'm far from a Chriss believer although I saw the theory of his "upside" but I didn't think love the chances of him reaching in the draft. I think he is a decent young asset and Gordon would not be just a dead salary like Knight or Waiters.
If it's Gordon and Chriss, I can see doing that deal, provided the last three picks are not lottery protected. Chriss is still only 21 years old so I see him as a young talent with potential who's shown that he can play at the NBA level. Whether it's Gordon or Knight wouldn't matter to me. But I'd still prefer getting Richardson and Adebayo - two young talents who have proven they can play well at the NBA level. Cam said Butler's value would go up if we waited. Well, the Houston offer might drive up Butler's market value. So now is the time to strike and I strongly suspect that Pat Riley will improve his last offer. I'll take Richardson and Adebayo plus Miami's 2019 first over 4 first round picks likely to be in the 20s.
Otherwise, I wouldn't complain about getting the 4 picks from Houston plus Chriss, provided again that the last three picks aren't lottery protected. And I see Kahn's logic in suggesting Houston will become a lottery team by the time of our last couple picks.
Thanks for the response Lip. A couple things to add.
Basically for this deal to happen I don't think any of them can be protected because they have to be fulfilled in the 7 year time frame. If that's the way it is...it makes it pretty valueable because you just don't know what could happen. It also ales me a bit skeptical it's real but hell if I thought getting Butler gave me a real chance at a title the next 2 years I'd consider it.
i get that Gordon or Knight probably isn't a dealbreaker in general but Gordonnis a plus as at worst a valuable 6th man. Knight is a guy that the last season he played was a Crawford level advanced stats bad (actually so think it was even worse and doesn't bring the nifty vet leadership awesome dude vibe) plus he can't stay healthy. So you have at worst a neutral contract player instead of a massive negative. Also Gordon can absolutely play which might help Glen and Thibs pull the trigger. :)
In addition to no protections on the picks outside of swaps and changing to second rounders which just isn't gonna happen they would have to use their other picks in the other years to draft guys thus hindering their ability to re-tool the team effectively. If you miss on any of those picks you have to wait 2 years to take another shot. With no cap space for the first 5 years of the window due to Jimmie's deal it's gonna be really hard to rebuild that team if anything goes wrong.
IF the Rockets do this deal of let's just say Knight and Chriss for Butler...that means we suddenly have some space below the lux tax to offer a player some money above a vet min deal this season. I really don't know if Patrick McCaw is worth it (that's a strange deal Over there) but maybe we offer him some money and opportunity to play and we get a potentially intruiging player for basically nothing.
Speaking of opportunity let's say we do suck and Okogie or someone else doesn't step up to be that next wing player next to Wiggins. Guess who would have a possible wide open starting spot regardless of how much money we have to offer? This team. Someone that's moderatly worthwhile would likely take a decent amount of money on a 1 year deal to be a full time starter here.
Bonus point. If we suck...fine we get a better draft pick. That could be another upside of dealing Butler now. I've seen some positives from this team (and Thibs) along with some injuries already hitting other teams that it's even possible this team might actually not suck the whole year if Butler is dealt. This team is flawed without Butler but it's also not the preseason team we saw either.
Nice job making the case, Monster. As you know, I've been among those wanting to deal Butler sooner rather than later. But I think it's important to get at least one young promising player in the deal unless we get picks that are likely to be lottery picks. The Houston picks are likely to be in the 20s based on the players they have now and the recent track record of that organization finding ways to position itself as a contender.
I'd deal Butler to Boston for Hayward if we also received the 2019 Sacramento pick, which is highly likely to be a high lottery pick. Give me Hayward, the 2019 Kings pick and the Memphis pick, which is only 1-8 protected in 2019, 1-6 protected in 2020 and unprotected in 2021. That's a deal I'd get excited about. I'd even through in Justin Patton. Would Boston do this deal? I have no idea and no one has reported that Boston has any interest in Butler. But I actually think it would be a great deal for Boston. Butler along with Tatum, Kyrie, Horford, Brown and Smart has the makings of a team that could get past Toronto and actually give the Warriors a run for their money. Boston would still have all their own 1st round picks to go with a lot of young talent in Tatum, Brown, Smart and even Kyrie, who is only 25 or 26.
But if I'm just getting 4 picks in the 20s spread over 7 years and no talented young prospects, I just can't get excited.
Is BOS making that offer?
No Boston offer has been reported. I have no idea whether Boston has made or would make that offer. But if I were Thibodeau, I'd definitely make that offer. And I'd do it now in the immediate aftermath of the report about the Houston offer. I'd also call Pat Riley and tell him that he can hang up on me again or take one last shot at a reasonable deal for Butler.
First off, having Pat Riley whine at you because he's not getting his way is a badge of honor.
Second, you can only do the trades that are in front of you. Four 1sts/3 flips/5 2nds is very fair for JimmyBricks and anyone else other than KAT and Okogie.
I agree Riley whining at you is a badge of honor. The thrust of my post wasn't to gravel at Riley's feet. Instead, I'd envision Thibodeau going back to him from a position of strength and giving him one last chance to put up or shut up in his pursuit of Butler in the midst of a publicly reported offer from the Rockets.
lipoli390 wrote:
JasonIsDaMan wrote:
lipoli390 wrote:
JasonIsDaMan wrote:
lipoli390 wrote:
monsterpile wrote:2 more points.
IF the Rockets do this deal of let's just say Knight and Chriss for Butler...that means we suddenly have some space below the lux tax to offer a player some money above a vet min deal this season. I really don't know if Patrick McCaw is worth it (that's a strange deal Over there) but maybe we offer him some money and opportunity to play and we get a potentially intruiging player for basically nothing.
Speaking of opportunity let's say we do suck and Okogie or someone else doesn't step up to be that next wing player next to Wiggins. Guess who would have a possible wide open starting spot regardless of how much money we have to offer? This team. Someone that's moderatly worthwhile would likely take a decent amount of money on a 1 year deal to be a full time starter here.
Bonus point. If we suck...fine we get a better draft pick. That could be another upside of dealing Butler now. I've seen some positives from this team (and Thibs) along with some injuries already hitting other teams that it's even possible this team might actually not suck the whole year if Butler is dealt. This team is flawed without Butler but it's also not the preseason team we saw either.
Nice job making the case, Monster. As you know, I've been among those wanting to deal Butler sooner rather than later. But I think it's important to get at least one young promising player in the deal unless we get picks that are likely to be lottery picks. The Houston picks are likely to be in the 20s based on the players they have now and the recent track record of that organization finding ways to position itself as a contender.
I'd deal Butler to Boston for Hayward if we also received the 2019 Sacramento pick, which is highly likely to be a high lottery pick. Give me Hayward, the 2019 Kings pick and the Memphis pick, which is only 1-8 protected in 2019, 1-6 protected in 2020 and unprotected in 2021. That's a deal I'd get excited about. I'd even through in Justin Patton. Would Boston do this deal? I have no idea and no one has reported that Boston has any interest in Butler. But I actually think it would be a great deal for Boston. Butler along with Tatum, Kyrie, Horford, Brown and Smart has the makings of a team that could get past Toronto and actually give the Warriors a run for their money. Boston would still have all their own 1st round picks to go with a lot of young talent in Tatum, Brown, Smart and even Kyrie, who is only 25 or 26.
But if I'm just getting 4 picks in the 20s spread over 7 years and no talented young prospects, I just can't get excited.
Is BOS making that offer?
No Boston offer has been reported. I have no idea whether Boston has made or would make that offer. But if I were Thibodeau, I'd definitely make that offer. And I'd do it now in the immediate aftermath of the report about the Houston offer. I'd also call Pat Riley and tell him that he can hang up on me again or take one last shot at a reasonable deal for Butler.
First off, having Pat Riley whine at you because he's not getting his way is a badge of honor.
Second, you can only do the trades that are in front of you. Four 1sts/3 flips/5 2nds is very fair for JimmyBricks and anyone else other than KAT and Okogie.
I agree Riley whining at you is a badge of honor. The thrust of my post wasn't to gravel at Riley's feet. Instead, I'd envision Thibodeau going back to him from a position of strength and giving him one last chance to put up or shut up in his pursuit of Butler in the midst of a publicly reported offer from the Rockets.
Here's the thing: So now MIA does two picks, which will also be in the 20's? I don't see how that's better than 4. And like I said, maybe HOU also agrees to swap on the other 3 years. And their 2nd's. So if they go in the tank like Brooklyn that's a great haul. And if they don't, it's a GOOD haul. I just don't see MIA doing the same deal. But yeah, if they do, I like the current players they would move better than HOU's.
You're right that 4 picks in the 20s is better than 2 picks in the 20s. But a deal with Miami would also likely include a proven young talented player named Josh Richardson and at least one other proven player (Olynyk, Whiteside or Adebayo, not Waiters). I wouldn't make draft picks the centerpiece of a Butler deal unless at least one of the picks was likely to be a lottery pick. Based on Houston's current roster and front office track record, I think it's highly unlikely any of the Houston picks would be lottery picks. When Boston traded down last summer for Tatum, they received Sacramento's 2019 pick, which at the time was highly likely to be not just a lottery pick but a high lottery pick. And that was just for moving up two spots in the draft. That's what good organizations do. They don't get all excited about 4 picks in the 20s spread over 7 years. It's fool's gold.
They also were trading the #1 overall pick. The receiving team gets to take their favorite player in the draft and essentially locks them in for 10 years. It was also with a Sixer's team who thought that Fultz was the perfect piece to pair with Simmons and Embiid, and the trade was conducted by the boneheaded Colangelo.
Apples to oranges.
TheFuture wrote:
lipoli390 wrote:
JasonIsDaMan wrote:
lipoli390 wrote:
JasonIsDaMan wrote:
lipoli390 wrote:
JasonIsDaMan wrote:
lipoli390 wrote:
monsterpile wrote:2 more points.
IF the Rockets do this deal of let's just say Knight and Chriss for Butler...that means we suddenly have some space below the lux tax to offer a player some money above a vet min deal this season. I really don't know if Patrick McCaw is worth it (that's a strange deal Over there) but maybe we offer him some money and opportunity to play and we get a potentially intruiging player for basically nothing.
Speaking of opportunity let's say we do suck and Okogie or someone else doesn't step up to be that next wing player next to Wiggins. Guess who would have a possible wide open starting spot regardless of how much money we have to offer? This team. Someone that's moderatly worthwhile would likely take a decent amount of money on a 1 year deal to be a full time starter here.
Bonus point. If we suck...fine we get a better draft pick. That could be another upside of dealing Butler now. I've seen some positives from this team (and Thibs) along with some injuries already hitting other teams that it's even possible this team might actually not suck the whole year if Butler is dealt. This team is flawed without Butler but it's also not the preseason team we saw either.
Nice job making the case, Monster. As you know, I've been among those wanting to deal Butler sooner rather than later. But I think it's important to get at least one young promising player in the deal unless we get picks that are likely to be lottery picks. The Houston picks are likely to be in the 20s based on the players they have now and the recent track record of that organization finding ways to position itself as a contender.
I'd deal Butler to Boston for Hayward if we also received the 2019 Sacramento pick, which is highly likely to be a high lottery pick. Give me Hayward, the 2019 Kings pick and the Memphis pick, which is only 1-8 protected in 2019, 1-6 protected in 2020 and unprotected in 2021. That's a deal I'd get excited about. I'd even through in Justin Patton. Would Boston do this deal? I have no idea and no one has reported that Boston has any interest in Butler. But I actually think it would be a great deal for Boston. Butler along with Tatum, Kyrie, Horford, Brown and Smart has the makings of a team that could get past Toronto and actually give the Warriors a run for their money. Boston would still have all their own 1st round picks to go with a lot of young talent in Tatum, Brown, Smart and even Kyrie, who is only 25 or 26.
But if I'm just getting 4 picks in the 20s spread over 7 years and no talented young prospects, I just can't get excited.
Is BOS making that offer?
No Boston offer has been reported. I have no idea whether Boston has made or would make that offer. But if I were Thibodeau, I'd definitely make that offer. And I'd do it now in the immediate aftermath of the report about the Houston offer. I'd also call Pat Riley and tell him that he can hang up on me again or take one last shot at a reasonable deal for Butler.
First off, having Pat Riley whine at you because he's not getting his way is a badge of honor.
Second, you can only do the trades that are in front of you. Four 1sts/3 flips/5 2nds is very fair for JimmyBricks and anyone else other than KAT and Okogie.
I agree Riley whining at you is a badge of honor. The thrust of my post wasn't to gravel at Riley's feet. Instead, I'd envision Thibodeau going back to him from a position of strength and giving him one last chance to put up or shut up in his pursuit of Butler in the midst of a publicly reported offer from the Rockets.
lipoli390 wrote:
JasonIsDaMan wrote:
lipoli390 wrote:
JasonIsDaMan wrote:
lipoli390 wrote:
monsterpile wrote:2 more points.
IF the Rockets do this deal of let's just say Knight and Chriss for Butler...that means we suddenly have some space below the lux tax to offer a player some money above a vet min deal this season. I really don't know if Patrick McCaw is worth it (that's a strange deal Over there) but maybe we offer him some money and opportunity to play and we get a potentially intruiging player for basically nothing.
Speaking of opportunity let's say we do suck and Okogie or someone else doesn't step up to be that next wing player next to Wiggins. Guess who would have a possible wide open starting spot regardless of how much money we have to offer? This team. Someone that's moderatly worthwhile would likely take a decent amount of money on a 1 year deal to be a full time starter here.
Bonus point. If we suck...fine we get a better draft pick. That could be another upside of dealing Butler now. I've seen some positives from this team (and Thibs) along with some injuries already hitting other teams that it's even possible this team might actually not suck the whole year if Butler is dealt. This team is flawed without Butler but it's also not the preseason team we saw either.
Nice job making the case, Monster. As you know, I've been among those wanting to deal Butler sooner rather than later. But I think it's important to get at least one young promising player in the deal unless we get picks that are likely to be lottery picks. The Houston picks are likely to be in the 20s based on the players they have now and the recent track record of that organization finding ways to position itself as a contender.
I'd deal Butler to Boston for Hayward if we also received the 2019 Sacramento pick, which is highly likely to be a high lottery pick. Give me Hayward, the 2019 Kings pick and the Memphis pick, which is only 1-8 protected in 2019, 1-6 protected in 2020 and unprotected in 2021. That's a deal I'd get excited about. I'd even through in Justin Patton. Would Boston do this deal? I have no idea and no one has reported that Boston has any interest in Butler. But I actually think it would be a great deal for Boston. Butler along with Tatum, Kyrie, Horford, Brown and Smart has the makings of a team that could get past Toronto and actually give the Warriors a run for their money. Boston would still have all their own 1st round picks to go with a lot of young talent in Tatum, Brown, Smart and even Kyrie, who is only 25 or 26.
But if I'm just getting 4 picks in the 20s spread over 7 years and no talented young prospects, I just can't get excited.
Is BOS making that offer?
No Boston offer has been reported. I have no idea whether Boston has made or would make that offer. But if I were Thibodeau, I'd definitely make that offer. And I'd do it now in the immediate aftermath of the report about the Houston offer. I'd also call Pat Riley and tell him that he can hang up on me again or take one last shot at a reasonable deal for Butler.
First off, having Pat Riley whine at you because he's not getting his way is a badge of honor.
Second, you can only do the trades that are in front of you. Four 1sts/3 flips/5 2nds is very fair for JimmyBricks and anyone else other than KAT and Okogie.
I agree Riley whining at you is a badge of honor. The thrust of my post wasn't to gravel at Riley's feet. Instead, I'd envision Thibodeau going back to him from a position of strength and giving him one last chance to put up or shut up in his pursuit of Butler in the midst of a publicly reported offer from the Rockets.
Here's the thing: So now MIA does two picks, which will also be in the 20's? I don't see how that's better than 4. And like I said, maybe HOU also agrees to swap on the other 3 years. And their 2nd's. So if they go in the tank like Brooklyn that's a great haul. And if they don't, it's a GOOD haul. I just don't see MIA doing the same deal. But yeah, if they do, I like the current players they would move better than HOU's.
You're right that 4 picks in the 20s is better than 2 picks in the 20s. But a deal with Miami would also likely include a proven young talented player named Josh Richardson and at least one other proven player (Olynyk, Whiteside or Adebayo, not Waiters). I wouldn't make draft picks the centerpiece of a Butler deal unless at least one of the picks was likely to be a lottery pick. Based on Houston's current roster and front office track record, I think it's highly unlikely any of the Houston picks would be lottery picks. When Boston traded down last summer for Tatum, they received Sacramento's 2019 pick, which at the time was highly likely to be not just a lottery pick but a high lottery pick. And that was just for moving up two spots in the draft. That's what good organizations do. They don't get all excited about 4 picks in the 20s spread over 7 years. It's fool's gold.
They also were trading the #1 overall pick. The receiving team gets to take their favorite player in the draft and essentially locks them in for 10 years. It was also with a Sixer's team who thought that Fultz was the perfect piece to pair with Simmons and Embiid, and the trade was conducted by the boneheaded Colangelo.
Apples to oranges.
My point wasn't to compare the two deals. My point was that you shouldn't make draft picks the centerpiece of a deal in which your giving up a really valueable asset unless at least one of the picks your get is likely to be a lottery pick. The Sixers traded up only two spots, yet gave up a surefire lottery pick. Yes, they really wanted Fultz, but they had a lot of very talented options at #3. The question is whether there are any teams with a likely future lottery pick who really want Butler the way the Sixers apparently wanted Fultz. There may be no such teams. Or maybe one of the last two Houston picks is likely to be a lottery pick. But otherwise, picks in the 20s are nothing to get excited about in my view.
When Paul retires, JimmyBricks and JimmyKardashian are fighting over touches, and Kappela gives up, those picks won't be in the 20's.
And Colangelo is the other "C word" you use to end the argument (c:
I'm doing a separate reply here because I'm gonna get some sort of injury scrolling through some of these response threads on my phone. Might have to miss part of the season with a wrist surgery...
I gotta give a Lip a hard time here but it's just in good fun. He says we shouldn't have sold the pick we could have used to select Gobert but...then picks in the 20's don't have value...come on man. ;)
I'd be curious how many people actually think these 4 first rounders are really offered or would be offered. I'm about 50/50 on whether it's true.
monsterpile wrote:Lip if it was offered would you do an Eric Gordon and Chriss plus 4 first round picks for Butler? Keep in mind Chriss has advanced stats that showed he was a positive on the defensive end playing on the Suns...the Suns. I'm far from a Chriss believer although I saw the theory of his "upside" but I didn't think love the chances of him reaching in the draft. I think he is a decent young asset and Gordon would not be just a dead salary like Knight or Waiters.
If it's Gordon and Chriss, I can see doing that deal, provided the last three picks are not lottery protected. Chriss is still only 21 years old so I see him as a young talent with potential who's shown that he can play at the NBA level. Whether it's Gordon or Knight wouldn't matter to me. But I'd still prefer getting Richardson and Adebayo - two young talents who have proven they can play well at the NBA level. Cam said Butler's value would go up if we waited. Well, the Houston offer might drive up Butler's market value. So now is the time to strike and I strongly suspect that Pat Riley will improve his last offer. I'll take Richardson and Adebayo plus Miami's 2019 first over 4 first round picks likely to be in the 20s.
Otherwise, I wouldn't complain about getting the 4 picks from Houston plus Chriss, provided again that the last three picks aren't lottery protected. And I see Kahn's logic in suggesting Houston will become a lottery team by the time of our last couple picks.
Thanks for the response Lip. A couple things to add.
Basically for this deal to happen I don't think any of them can be protected because they have to be fulfilled in the 7 year time frame. If that's the way it is...it makes it pretty valueable because you just don't know what could happen. It also ales me a bit skeptical it's real but hell if I thought getting Butler gave me a real chance at a title the next 2 years I'd consider it.
i get that Gordon or Knight probably isn't a dealbreaker in general but Gordonnis a plus as at worst a valuable 6th man. Knight is a guy that the last season he played was a Crawford level advanced stats bad (actually so think it was even worse and doesn't bring the nifty vet leadership awesome dude vibe) plus he can't stay healthy. So you have at worst a neutral contract player instead of a massive negative. Also Gordon can absolutely play which might help Glen and Thibs pull the trigger. :)
Lol. Yep, Gordon might be the key to getting Thibodeau's buy-in. In my view, Knight's only value is his expiring contract. I'd be inclined to release him after the trade. I'd rather not have Gordon's contract for two years. By the way, take a look at Gordon's stats so far this season. They're terrible. Makes me wonder if he's having physical issues. He's always an injury waiting to happen. To the extent he stays healthy, his presence would hurt our draft position next summer. So the more I think about it, the more I'd prefer Knight over Gordon as part of this deal.
I would hope none of the deals would be lottery protected. If they were, we could lose some of them because the picks would have to be extinguished if Houston ended up in the lottery any of those years. Imagine this scenario. The first two of the four picked are lottery protected. Harden gets injured and misses the rest of this season and Houston finishes in the lottery. Now the Wolves are down to 3 picks.
