KAT should feel challenged. His ego should be a bit bruised. You don't achieve what Towns has achieved to date at such a young age without being hypercompetitive -- especially at his position. I've seen that competitiveness in KAT watching the physical combat he engages in down low on every single offensive position and then fighting again on the boards as he accumulated over 12 boards a game at age 20 in his second NBA season. He has a lot of fight in him and now he's been challenged to show that same fight on the defensive end. Thibs was obviously challenging him in that regard, but the Butler acquisition amplifies that challenge enormously. I think he'll rise to the challenge.
My judgement is that it's simply an issue of maturity. Lip, I agree that KAT absolutely has the hyper-competitive behaviour. I also think he's a genuinely good guy who wants to do whatever it takes to help the team win. But I think he potentially confuses what it does actually take to achieve success. KAT seems to think that winning relies on him scoring more points and getting more rebounds - they're the most visible things a player can add to a team. Whereas success probably stems more from defensive efforts that assist team defence, and from facilitating others so the whole team can function together.
So I'm not sure that being challenged is what Butler provides. I don't think KAT needs to be challenged. I think he's incredibly self-motivated and challenges himself. But what I hope Butler can provide is a more effective way for KAT to channel his competitiveness. An ability to lead by example and show KAT what is needed to move the needle in the wins column.
As much as I held out hope for our core of KAT, Wigg and Lavine to organically improve, there was always a risk that they wouldn't just naturally progress. A risk that all the losing would lead to bad habits rather than just being part of the process. The argument for veteran leadership was about being able to teach by example. That is a real synergy that I'm hopeful is created by adding Butler.
Well said, Shumway. But I do think the Butler acquisition will get KAT's competitive juices flowing even more. We all know that MJ would look for things to give him even more motivation. It's all about channeling that drive in ways that make you better.
KAT should feel challenged. His ego should be a bit bruised. You don't achieve what Towns has achieved to date at such a young age without being hypercompetitive -- especially at his position. I've seen that competitiveness in KAT watching the physical combat he engages in down low on every single offensive position and then fighting again on the boards as he accumulated over 12 boards a game at age 20 in his second NBA season. He has a lot of fight in him and now he's been challenged to show that same fight on the defensive end. Thibs was obviously challenging him in that regard, but the Butler acquisition amplifies that challenge enormously. I think he'll rise to the challenge.
My judgement is that it's simply an issue of maturity. Lip, I agree that KAT absolutely has the hyper-competitive behaviour. I also think he's a genuinely good guy who wants to do whatever it takes to help the team win. But I think he potentially confuses what it does actually take to achieve success. KAT seems to think that winning relies on him scoring more points and getting more rebounds - they're the most visible things a player can add to a team. Whereas success probably stems more from defensive efforts that assist team defence, and from facilitating others so the whole team can function together.
So I'm not sure that being challenged is what Butler provides. I don't think KAT needs to be challenged. I think he's incredibly self-motivated and challenges himself. But what I hope Butler can provide is a more effective way for KAT to channel his competitiveness. An ability to lead by example and show KAT what is needed to move the needle in the wins column.
As much as I held out hope for our core of KAT, Wigg and Lavine to organically improve, there was always a risk that they wouldn't just naturally progress. A risk that all the losing would lead to bad habits rather than just being part of the process. The argument for veteran leadership was about being able to teach by example. That is a real synergy that I'm hopeful is created by adding Butler.
I am more worried about Wiggins then Towns. I hope Butler rubs off on Wiggins. Towns worked well with KG so that is not an issue in my mind. It didn't seem that KG had the same impact on Wiggins. Wiggins didn't like that hyper-competitiveness. Maybe I didn't see things the way they were in reality.
bleedspeed177 wrote:I am more worried about Wiggins then Towns. I hope Butler rubs off on Wiggins. Towns worked well with KG so that is not an issue in my mind. It didn't seem that KG had the same impact on Wiggins. Wiggins didn't like that hyper-competitiveness. Maybe I didn't see things the way they were in reality.
Clearly they're very different individuals and pulling on different strings will be required to help them reach their potential.
Whereas Towns requires his intensity to be channelled more effectively, I would say that Wiggins needs to be challenged in a really constructive rather than confrontational way in order to optimise his performance (insert appropriate disclaimer that I'm just making a very anecdotal judgement on this and I'm not an expert).
I don't know how the addition of Butler will impact Wiggins mentally. But I see real synergies in terms of their fit together. It allows Wiggins to move to the 2 and not have to guard the oppositions best wing player. I've commented before about the potential redundancy of Wiggins and Lavine both being primarily scorers and not much else (yet). Although the lack of 3 point shooting between Wiggins and Butler is not ideal, I see them being more complimentary as players given Butler's Q-Score (my new term for the Do Shit stats).
bleedspeed177 wrote:I am more worried about Wiggins then Towns. I hope Butler rubs off on Wiggins. Towns worked well with KG so that is not an issue in my mind. It didn't seem that KG had the same impact on Wiggins. Wiggins didn't like that hyper-competitiveness. Maybe I didn't see things the way they were in reality.
Clearly they're very different individuals and pulling on different strings will be required to help them reach their potential.
Whereas Towns requires his intensity to be channelled more effectively, I would say that Wiggins needs to be challenged in a really constructive rather than confrontational way in order to optimise his performance (insert appropriate disclaimer that I'm just making a very anecdotal judgement on this and I'm not an expert).
I don't know how the addition of Butler will impact Wiggins mentally. But I see real synergies in terms of their fit together. It allows Wiggins to move to the 2 and not have to guard the oppositions best wing player. I've commented before about the potential redundancy of Wiggins and Lavine both being primarily scorers and not much else (yet). Although the lack of 3 point shooting between Wiggins and Butler is not ideal, I see them being more complimentary as players given Butler's Q-Score (my new term for the Do Shit stats).
Well there is some actual evidence to support your thoughts about Wiggins. Sam Mitchell said something about the usual coaching tricks don't work on Wiggins because he is too smart. He said something like you have to engage and really think and talk the game with him.
Great stuff Shumway. I like what Butler is saying and think this is a great move. I wonder if we will look back at any point and wonder if we should have traded Wiggins instead of LaVine.
bleedspeed177 wrote:Great stuff Shumway. I like what Butler is saying and think this is a great move. I wonder if we will look back at any point and wonder if we should have traded Wiggins instead of LaVine.
Yeah, I love Shumway's posts...we need more activity from Down Under!
Bleed, I think you have teed up a topic that will be a talker for some time...Wig vs. Zach, because one of them had to go in this deal. I have never been a big believer in Zach becoming a reliable 2-way star, so right not there is no question that we kept the right guy in Wig. But I think we can count on lots of discussion about this topic down the road.
bleedspeed177 wrote:Great stuff Shumway. I like what Butler is saying and think this is a great move. I wonder if we will look back at any point and wonder if we should have traded Wiggins instead of LaVine.
Yeah, I love Shumway's posts...we need more activity from Down Under!
Bleed, I think you have teed up a topic that will be a talker for some time...Wig vs. Zach, because one of them had to go in this deal. I have never been a big believer in Zach becoming a reliable 2-way star, so right not there is no question that we kept the right guy in Wig. But I think we can count on lots of discussion about this topic down the road.
As high as I have been on Lavine I've always had more confidence in Wiggins ability to be a 2 way player. I should probably mention I've been high on Wiggins since his rookie year too. It's ok to like both guys! Lol
bleedspeed177 wrote:Great stuff Shumway. I like what Butler is saying and think this is a great move. I wonder if we will look back at any point and wonder if we should have traded Wiggins instead of LaVine.
Yeah, I love Shumway's posts...we need more activity from Down Under!
Bleed, I think you have teed up a topic that will be a talker for some time...Wig vs. Zach, because one of them had to go in this deal. I have never been a big believer in Zach becoming a reliable 2-way star, so right not there is no question that we kept the right guy in Wig. But I think we can count on lots of discussion about this topic down the road.
As high as I have been on Lavine I've always had more confidence in Wiggins ability to be a 2 way player. I should probably mention I've been high on Wiggins since his rookie year too. It's ok to like both guys! Lol
Wiggins is position versatile as well which is crucial in this age of almost position-less basketball. In 2-3 years he might be ok 1-4 once he tightens up his handle more and adds some strength, but at a minimum he can play 2 spots which is one more than Zach.
I think what gets lost so often in Wiggins and Towns critiques is they are both still extremely young. They both are way advanced scorers, but they need to develop other aspects of their games. I think both of them will round out their games quite well in the next 2-3 years. I also think the approach of trying to win now while developing these guys is smart. Need to bring in the winning culture now.
