Windhorst: Towns and Butler pushing for Irving trade

[Lipoli390]

Sounds like the Cavs might veto the trade based on IT's injury concerns. Apparently they're now asking for Jaylen Brown or Tatum to be included. If I'm Boston I tell them to take it or leave it. If they give up anymore they're getting fleeced. At the end of the day the Cavs need to trade Kyrie before training camp or things could turn sour and his value will plummet. Watch this space!

There is no way the Celtics give up Tatum. They might give up Brown, but I doubt it. I'm still thinking the Celtics add the Memphis pick and the deal goes forward. No way the Celtics want to take Thomas back after all this. I suspect the Cavs can get a very good deal from the Suns -- probably Bledsoe, another young talent and Miami's 2018 1st round pick. Then again, if this deal falls through, the Cavs bargaining position with the Suns and others will diminish.

I think the Cavs are being disingenuous. How can they now claim the Celtics weren't forthcoming. The Cavs knew IT has a torn labrum and that IT did not get it surgerically repaired. Heck, it took me 2 minutes on the Internet to learn that a torn labrum never heals on its own without surgery. You can't tell me it took a medical examine by Cleveland's doctors to suddenly open their eyes to the risk. Apparently, the Cavs are now saying that the Celtics weren't forthcoming about how long before IT will be ready to play. Come on! The issue isn't when he'll be ready, because the tear doesn't heal! The issue is whether rest and rehab can reduce the discomfort to the point where IT can play at a high level as a small PG in the NBA. That has to be the core concern with IT regardless of whether he feels ready to go in October, November or December. It's all about the playoffs for the Cavs this season, not how well they perform in October and November. If I were the Celtics, I'd call the Cavs on this and tell them - f-you. You want a 2nd round pick or even our own first round pick, then maybe yes, I'll give it to you. But beyond that, you get nothing more even if it means the deal collapses. I don't think the Cavs want to give up the unprotected Nets pick, so I think the Celtics will be calling the Cavs bluff by playing hard ball.

[Monster]

Sounds like the Cavs might veto the trade based on IT's injury concerns. Apparently they're now asking for Jaylen Brown or Tatum to be included. If I'm Boston I tell them to take it or leave it. If they give up anymore they're getting fleeced. At the end of the day the Cavs need to trade Kyrie before training camp or things could turn sour and his value will plummet. Watch this space!

There is no way the Celtics give up Tatum. They might give up Brown, but I doubt it. I'm still thinking the Celtics add the Memphis pick and the deal goes forward. But the Cavs are in the drivers seat as I see it. No way the Celtics can end up taking Thomas back after all this. And I suspect the Cavs can get a very good deal from the Suns -- probably Bledsoe, another young talent and Miami's 2018 1st round pick.

I'd bet money they don't give up Jalen Brown either. They REALLY like that guy from everything I have heard. I'd guess something along the lines of the Memphis 1st or something like that would be what they would give up to sweeten the offer. If not even though they want Kyrie they probably tell the Cavs go see if you can find a better deal. Both teams want this to go through but I don't think the Celtics are desperate either even if IT can't play again ever they could make another move. What if they call up Phoenix themselves and offer something decent but not mind blowing for Bledsoe? Lol

[AbeVigodaLive]

Wow. Interesting development.

For all the assets Ainge had... and all the patience he had in holding them... to give so many away for a guy demanding to leave the Cavs seems more than a bit disappointing for Celtics fans.

This new Cavs GM is earning himself quite the reputation if he can pull this off though. Cavs fans should be ecstatic all things considered if they get even more from Boston.

[mrhockey89]

I don't think the Celtics part with either Brown or Tatum either. I could see them parting with another future pick to get the trade through, but they balked at adding Tatum from the get-go, I don't think they suddenly add him from this development.

As the NBA turns!

[TheFuture]

Cavs do have the leverage now, can't believe since didn't see it coming. He panicked after the flashback of losing out on boogie, PG, and butler. I agree that he won't part with a young talent, but he should add a late first. Otherwise, if I'm the cavs I pull the deal and trade with the suns for that bledsoe package (great for us right?!?) and cause a meltdown with the Celtics who are their top competition. If they do get that late first then the Cavs can package that with shumpert to dump him, sign a max player this off season, and then resign IT as well. Either way, win-win for Cavs.

[Lipoli390]

Cavs do have the leverage now, can't believe since didn't see it coming. He panicked after the flashback of losing out on boogie, PG, and butler. I agree that he won't part with a young talent, but he should add a late first. Otherwise, if I'm the cavs I pull the deal and trade with the suns for that bledsoe package (great for us right?!?) and cause a meltdown with the Celtics who are their top competition. If they do get that late first then the Cavs can package that with shumpert to dump him, sign a max player this off season, and then resign IT as well. Either way, win-win for Cavs.

Cavs do have the leverage now, can't believe since didn't see it coming. He panicked after the flashback of losing out on boogie, PG, and butler. I agree that he won't part with a young talent, but he should add a late first. Otherwise, if I'm the cavs I pull the deal and trade with the suns for that bledsoe package (great for us right?!?) and cause a meltdown with the Celtics who are their top competition. If they do get that late first then the Cavs can package that with shumpert to dump him, sign a max player this off season, and then resign IT as well. Either way, win-win for Cavs.

If I were the Cavs, I'd pull the plug and do the Phoenix deal as you suggested. But I think the Cavs are intent on getting that Nets pick. In my view, the deal was never about IT for the Cavs, but was instead all about preparing for the post-LeBron era beginning next summer. Hence the focus on the unprotected Nets pick and cap-friendly Crowder contract. Crowder can also help this next season, but i don't think this next season was the focus of the deal for the Cavs. Even if IT helped this next season, it's doubtful the Cavs would have paid to keep him around long-term after that. I just can't imagine the Cavs viewing a small PG with a torn labrum as the key to the deal. I initially thought the Cavs have the leverage, but on second thought I don' think they do because I think they really want that Nets pick. If Boston holds firm, they won't have to give up more than their own 1st round pick in 2018 or 2019 to keep the deal in place.

[TheFuture]

Cavs do have the leverage now, can't believe since didn't see it coming. He panicked after the flashback of losing out on boogie, PG, and butler. I agree that he won't part with a young talent, but he should add a late first. Otherwise, if I'm the cavs I pull the deal and trade with the suns for that bledsoe package (great for us right?!?) and cause a meltdown with the Celtics who are their top competition. If they do get that late first then the Cavs can package that with shumpert to dump him, sign a max player this off season, and then resign IT as well. Either way, win-win for Cavs.

Cavs do have the leverage now, can't believe since didn't see it coming. He panicked after the flashback of losing out on boogie, PG, and butler. I agree that he won't part with a young talent, but he should add a late first. Otherwise, if I'm the cavs I pull the deal and trade with the suns for that bledsoe package (great for us right?!?) and cause a meltdown with the Celtics who are their top competition. If they do get that late first then the Cavs can package that with shumpert to dump him, sign a max player this off season, and then resign IT as well. Either way, win-win for Cavs.

If I were the Cavs, I'd pull the plug and do the Phoenix deal as you suggested. But I think the Cavs are intent on getting that Nets pick. In my view, the deal was never about IT for the Cavs, but was instead all about preparing for the post-LeBron era beginning next summer. Hence the focus on the unprotected Nets pick and cap-friendly Crowder contract. Crowder can also help this next season, but i don't think this next season was the focus of the deal for the Cavs. Even if IT helped this next season, it's doubtful the Cavs would have paid to keep him around long-term after that. I just can't imagine the Cavs viewing a small PG with a torn labrum as the key to the deal. I initially thought the Cavs have the leverage, but on second thought I don' think they do because I think they really want that Nets pick. If Boston holds firm, they won't have to give up more than their own 1st round pick in 2018 or 2019 to keep the deal in place.

I'd say we agree on most of the situation, other than the leverage aspect. The Celtics have no true pg outside of IT. They have 2 max guys, 6+ 1st round picks (at least 4 of which play the 2 or 3), it and crowder coming back in this scenario, plus a bevy of more first rounders. They need this trade to go through far more than the cavs do. Kyrie will remain a coveted piece even if he is disgruntled. IT will be of minimal value, crowder is decent on a good contract, and That nets pick is a crapshoot (to the Celtics), and they aren't packaging Hayward, Tatum, or brown with it for some top player (which none are really left) when they have that core locked in for 4+ years. Celtics either give up that extra first to solidify this deal or they really shoot themselves in the foot. If they choose to do so the Cabs can definitely still get a nice package for a top 5 pg in the league, especially considering his playoff experience while only being 25.

[Monster]

Cavs do have the leverage now, can't believe since didn't see it coming. He panicked after the flashback of losing out on boogie, PG, and butler. I agree that he won't part with a young talent, but he should add a late first. Otherwise, if I'm the cavs I pull the deal and trade with the suns for that bledsoe package (great for us right?!?) and cause a meltdown with the Celtics who are their top competition. If they do get that late first then the Cavs can package that with shumpert to dump him, sign a max player this off season, and then resign IT as well. Either way, win-win for Cavs.

Cavs do have the leverage now, can't believe since didn't see it coming. He panicked after the flashback of losing out on boogie, PG, and butler. I agree that he won't part with a young talent, but he should add a late first. Otherwise, if I'm the cavs I pull the deal and trade with the suns for that bledsoe package (great for us right?!?) and cause a meltdown with the Celtics who are their top competition. If they do get that late first then the Cavs can package that with shumpert to dump him, sign a max player this off season, and then resign IT as well. Either way, win-win for Cavs.

If I were the Cavs, I'd pull the plug and do the Phoenix deal as you suggested. But I think the Cavs are intent on getting that Nets pick. In my view, the deal was never about IT for the Cavs, but was instead all about preparing for the post-LeBron era beginning next summer. Hence the focus on the unprotected Nets pick and cap-friendly Crowder contract. Crowder can also help this next season, but i don't think this next season was the focus of the deal for the Cavs. Even if IT helped this next season, it's doubtful the Cavs would have paid to keep him around long-term after that. I just can't imagine the Cavs viewing a small PG with a torn labrum as the key to the deal. I initially thought the Cavs have the leverage, but on second thought I don' think they do because I think they really want that Nets pick. If Boston holds firm, they won't have to give up more than their own 1st round pick in 2018 or 2019 to keep the deal in place.

I'd say we agree on most of the situation, other than the leverage aspect. The Celtics have no true pg outside of IT. They have 2 max guys, 6+ 1st round picks (at least 4 of which play the 2 or 3), it and crowder coming back in this scenario, plus a bevy of more first rounders. They need this trade to go through far more than the cavs do. Kyrie will remain a coveted piece even if he is disgruntled. IT will be of minimal value, crowder is decent on a good contract, and That nets pick is a crapshoot (to the Celtics), and they aren't packaging Hayward, Tatum, or brown with it for some top player (which none are really left) when they have that core locked in for 4+ years. Celtics either give up that extra first to solidify this deal or they really shoot themselves in the foot. If they choose to do so the Cabs can definitely still get a nice package for a top 5 pg in the league, especially considering his playoff experience while only being 25.

What is the package you are assuming the suns are giving up? What's i see is its Bledsoe Bender and Miami's 1st. Unless you are still high on Bender (I'm not sure I basically haven't seen him play) then this deal may sound a lot less exciting than getting that Nets pick and Crowder if it's building for the future. Not that it matters too much but with the Boston deal they save a pretty nice chunk of money in Lux tax because they take back less money. The Suns deal is pretty even in salary.

Shumpert I think has value around the league. I think even at his salary (player option 2018 11 million) there would be teams willing to take him on. Houston was going to give up a random 1st to get him before they made some other moves including signing some other players that were cheaper. It's POSSIBLE he opts out if he wants to go somewhere else long term but it seems doubtful he would get that type of money.

Boston's fallback is starting Smart. It could give them a nasty defensive team that could switch everything and it would mean a more free flowing offense where everyone gets touches. Plus Boston has the assets to go get basically any PG that becomes available and you never know who will be available (see 2017 NBA offseason).

Imho both teams want this deal to happen and so both have some leverage to make it go through but I really don't know that either has an advantage over another.

[Lipoli390]

Cavs do have the leverage now, can't believe since didn't see it coming. He panicked after the flashback of losing out on boogie, PG, and butler. I agree that he won't part with a young talent, but he should add a late first. Otherwise, if I'm the cavs I pull the deal and trade with the suns for that bledsoe package (great for us right?!?) and cause a meltdown with the Celtics who are their top competition. If they do get that late first then the Cavs can package that with shumpert to dump him, sign a max player this off season, and then resign IT as well. Either way, win-win for Cavs.

Cavs do have the leverage now, can't believe since didn't see it coming. He panicked after the flashback of losing out on boogie, PG, and butler. I agree that he won't part with a young talent, but he should add a late first. Otherwise, if I'm the cavs I pull the deal and trade with the suns for that bledsoe package (great for us right?!?) and cause a meltdown with the Celtics who are their top competition. If they do get that late first then the Cavs can package that with shumpert to dump him, sign a max player this off season, and then resign IT as well. Either way, win-win for Cavs.

If I were the Cavs, I'd pull the plug and do the Phoenix deal as you suggested. But I think the Cavs are intent on getting that Nets pick. In my view, the deal was never about IT for the Cavs, but was instead all about preparing for the post-LeBron era beginning next summer. Hence the focus on the unprotected Nets pick and cap-friendly Crowder contract. Crowder can also help this next season, but i don't think this next season was the focus of the deal for the Cavs. Even if IT helped this next season, it's doubtful the Cavs would have paid to keep him around long-term after that. I just can't imagine the Cavs viewing a small PG with a torn labrum as the key to the deal. I initially thought the Cavs have the leverage, but on second thought I don' think they do because I think they really want that Nets pick. If Boston holds firm, they won't have to give up more than their own 1st round pick in 2018 or 2019 to keep the deal in place.

I'd say we agree on most of the situation, other than the leverage aspect. The Celtics have no true pg outside of IT. They have 2 max guys, 6+ 1st round picks (at least 4 of which play the 2 or 3), it and crowder coming back in this scenario, plus a bevy of more first rounders. They need this trade to go through far more than the cavs do. Kyrie will remain a coveted piece even if he is disgruntled. IT will be of minimal value, crowder is decent on a good contract, and That nets pick is a crapshoot (to the Celtics), and they aren't packaging Hayward, Tatum, or brown with it for some top player (which none are really left) when they have that core locked in for 4+ years. Celtics either give up that extra first to solidify this deal or they really shoot themselves in the foot. If they choose to do so the Cabs can definitely still get a nice package for a top 5 pg in the league, especially considering his playoff experience while only being 25.

Future - I think we agree almost entirely on the situation. You're right that Irving is essential to the Celtics ability to be a contender this upcoming season. So they will want to preserve this deal. But we agree they're not going to give up Brown or Tatum. So the question is which additional future 1st round pick will the Celtics be willing to give up. I've been predicting that the Celtics will eventually give up the 2019 Memphis pick. If I were them I'd only offer my own 1st round pick while maybe also throwing in a 2nd rounder. Which additional pick or picks do you think the Celtics will eventually offer to preserve the deal?

The small disagreement we might have is on how invested the Cavs are in the deal with the Celtics. My view is that the Cavs are drooling over the prospect of that Nets pick. The Suns Miami pick is protected while the Nets pick is not and most observers think the Heat will have a better record than the Nets. That's why I think the Cavs will ultimately sign-off on the deal with the addition of the Memphis pick or possibly even with just the addition of the Celtics own pick.

[Monster]

Another thing to consider for that Nets pick is that 2018 is (stop me if you have heard this line before) supposed to be a really good draft. :)