Q12543 wrote:Good article by Chip Scoggins today in the Strib.
Butler has been through the gauntlet of life. His birth parents either abandoned him (his Dad) or rejected him (his Mom). He was not recruited by any D-1 schools and ended up going to a JUCO, where he was a model student.
Here is a guy that had every excuse to take a different path and be a victim of circumstances, but rose above them.
Love this stuff. Just started the article now thanks for sharing.
Yeah, you read about his background and it's like.....whoa. Adriean Payne, although we laugh at his somewhat comical recklessness on the court, is another guy with an incredible back story. You kinda stop laughing once you read about him in fact. Kris Dunn too. Just inspirational stuff.....
I agree. You mention Kris Dunn and what he had to overcome. Butler came to the League as a potentially terrific defender who wasn't good at all on the offensive side of the ball. But he had the inner drive to hone his talents into becoming a terrific two-way player. I could easily see Dunn following that same path. So those who have been ridiculing the Bulls for this deal may ultimately look ridiculous in a few years as Dunn and LaVine blossom.
I agree Lip. I will say I don't know if I would want to bet my job on Dunn figuring it out and I'm pulling for the kid. Of course I wouldn't be selling high 2nd round picks to GS either so... lol
I still wonder if Payne is gonna get a shot at this team even if it's one of those split contracts. This new group had no reason to keep him around (except making Glen pay a few extra bucks to get another player) and they even played him at times last year. Obviously he is a loooow priority and he will come cheap.
I think Thibs was willing to bet his job on Dunn and LaVine, but he just saw a better better (more certain) bet in Butler. The Bulls really had to trade Butler this summer and they weren't getting the offers they expected. So I have no doubt what they got from the Wolves was the best they could have realistically gotten from anyone. So for the Bulls front office, the be on Dunn and LaVine wasn't a bad one and certainly didn't merit the ridicule they've been getting. However, as you pointed out, they deserve all the criticism they've received and then some for selling the 38th pick for case -- especially with Jordan Bell there for the taking. And taking Markkenan at #7 wasn't impressive in my view with Dennis Smith and Zach Collins available. Markkenan would have made more sense for the Wolves, even though I would have been really disappointed if we had drafted him. But when you're starting a rebuild as the Bulls clearly are, then you have to draft high-upside two-way talent.
Q12543 wrote:Good article by Chip Scoggins today in the Strib.
Butler has been through the gauntlet of life. His birth parents either abandoned him (his Dad) or rejected him (his Mom). He was not recruited by any D-1 schools and ended up going to a JUCO, where he was a model student.
Here is a guy that had every excuse to take a different path and be a victim of circumstances, but rose above them.
Love this stuff. Just started the article now thanks for sharing.
Yeah, you read about his background and it's like.....whoa. Adriean Payne, although we laugh at his somewhat comical recklessness on the court, is another guy with an incredible back story. You kinda stop laughing once you read about him in fact. Kris Dunn too. Just inspirational stuff.....
I agree. You mention Kris Dunn and what he had to overcome. Butler came to the League as a potentially terrific defender who wasn't good at all on the offensive side of the ball. But he had the inner drive to hone his talents into becoming a terrific two-way player. I could easily see Dunn following that same path. So those who have been ridiculing the Bulls for this deal may ultimately look ridiculous in a few years as Dunn and LaVine blossom.
I agree Lip. I will say I don't know if I would want to bet my job on Dunn figuring it out and I'm pulling for the kid. Of course I wouldn't be selling high 2nd round picks to GS either so... lol
I still wonder if Payne is gonna get a shot at this team even if it's one of those split contracts. This new group had no reason to keep him around (except making Glen pay a few extra bucks to get another player) and they even played him at times last year. Obviously he is a loooow priority and he will come cheap.
I think Thibs was willing to bet his job on Dunn and LaVine, but he just saw a better better (more certain) bet in Butler. The Bulls really had to trade Butler this summer and they weren't getting the offers they expected. So I have no doubt what they got from the Wolves was the best they could have realistically gotten from anyone. So for the Bulls front office, the be on Dunn and LaVine wasn't a bad one and certainly didn't merit the ridicule they've been getting. However, as you pointed out, they deserve all the criticism they've received and then some for selling the 38th pick for case -- especially with Jordan Bell there for the taking. And taking Markkenan at #7 wasn't impressive in my view with Dennis Smith and Zach Collins available. Markkenan would have made more sense for the Wolves, even though I would have been really disappointed if we had drafted him. But when you're starting a rebuild as the Bulls clearly are, then you have to draft high-upside two-way talent.
I would bet my job on Lavine no question. Inwould not on Dunn that was my point. That's not the exactly the situation the Bulls are in but It's also nice to have another team to take the mantle of jokes about PGs.
Q12543 wrote:Good article by Chip Scoggins today in the Strib.
Butler has been through the gauntlet of life. His birth parents either abandoned him (his Dad) or rejected him (his Mom). He was not recruited by any D-1 schools and ended up going to a JUCO, where he was a model student.
Here is a guy that had every excuse to take a different path and be a victim of circumstances, but rose above them.
Love this stuff. Just started the article now thanks for sharing.
Yeah, you read about his background and it's like.....whoa. Adriean Payne, although we laugh at his somewhat comical recklessness on the court, is another guy with an incredible back story. You kinda stop laughing once you read about him in fact. Kris Dunn too. Just inspirational stuff.....
I agree. You mention Kris Dunn and what he had to overcome. Butler came to the League as a potentially terrific defender who wasn't good at all on the offensive side of the ball. But he had the inner drive to hone his talents into becoming a terrific two-way player. I could easily see Dunn following that same path. So those who have been ridiculing the Bulls for this deal may ultimately look ridiculous in a few years as Dunn and LaVine blossom.
I agree Lip. I will say I don't know if I would want to bet my job on Dunn figuring it out and I'm pulling for the kid. Of course I wouldn't be selling high 2nd round picks to GS either so... lol
I still wonder if Payne is gonna get a shot at this team even if it's one of those split contracts. This new group had no reason to keep him around (except making Glen pay a few extra bucks to get another player) and they even played him at times last year. Obviously he is a loooow priority and he will come cheap.
I think Thibs was willing to bet his job on Dunn and LaVine, but he just saw a better better (more certain) bet in Butler. The Bulls really had to trade Butler this summer and they weren't getting the offers they expected. So I have no doubt what they got from the Wolves was the best they could have realistically gotten from anyone. So for the Bulls front office, the be on Dunn and LaVine wasn't a bad one and certainly didn't merit the ridicule they've been getting. However, as you pointed out, they deserve all the criticism they've received and then some for selling the 38th pick for case -- especially with Jordan Bell there for the taking. And taking Markkenan at #7 wasn't impressive in my view with Dennis Smith and Zach Collins available. Markkenan would have made more sense for the Wolves, even though I would have been really disappointed if we had drafted him. But when you're starting a rebuild as the Bulls clearly are, then you have to draft high-upside two-way talent.
I would bet my job on Lavine no question. Inwould not on Dunn that was my point. That's not the exactly the situation the Bulls are in but It's also nice to have another team to take the mantle of jokes about PGs.
I have a different take...I think Thibs liked aspects of both Zach's and Kris' game, but was frustrated by the holes in their games. I don't think he was willing to bet his job on either of them. Thibs is a basketball junkie, and you know he analyzes the numbers even more than fanatics like we do...he clearly knows the negative impact Zach had on the team when he was on the floor. And it doesn't take a basketball genius to see Dunn is unlikely to ever be even an average offensive player. The Wolves had a terrible season last year, and I of course think Thibs carries a lot of the responsibility for the failure. But I don't think he thinks that. I think he would say privately that he wasn't given a roster that would allow him to win, and Zach's lack of defense was a key element. One thing you can't coach is basketball IQ, and as much as I love and cheered for Zach, I've never though he had it. I'm guessing Thibs has been a very happy man since he completed this deal.
I don't know....I'm not willing to say we "fleeced" Chicago, even though it looks like it on paper. They will need to be patient and will likely suck next year, but 2-3 years from now Chicago could be a very good team again.
They basically exchanged Butler for four upside opportunities: LaVine, Dunn, Markkanen, and the lottery pick they are certainly going to get next season as a result of Butler leaving. What if they hit big on 2 out of those 4? That might be enough to at least call the deal a draw. We'll see.
LST I don't buy that Thibs was that low on either Dunn or Lavine. Glen and I believe Thibs both said they wouldn't have done the deal if they hadn't gotten back #16. Windhorst said Chicago should have called their bluff. Thibs doesn't seem like a guy that plays the media game and I tend to agree with Wolfson when he says Glen might be too honest at times. So that means they still valued those 2...and that pick. I think Thibs liked both of those guys still but adding Butler is a no brainer unless he those both of those guys were going to be really high level players. Butler is a really good player there is no shame in giving up something you like to get a player that good. I think its more how good Butler is than the holes in either player but yeah sure they had them.
monsterpile wrote:LST I don't buy that Thibs was that low on either Dunn or Lavine. Glen and I believe Thibs both said they wouldn't have done the deal if they hadn't gotten back #16. Windhorst said Chicago should have called their bluff. Thibs doesn't seem like a guy that plays the media game and I tend to agree with Wolfson when he says Glen might be too honest at times. So that means they still valued those 2...and that pick. I think Thibs liked both of those guys still but adding Butler is a no brainer unless he those both of those guys were going to be really high level players. Butler is a really good player there is no shame in giving up something you like to get a player that good. I think its more how good Butler is than the holes in either player but yeah sure they had them.
I agree, Monster. It's all about Butler and all the things he brings while still being in his late 20s.
I love the personality profile of Butler here. And more of it came out in his initial interviews in Minnesota. One of the statements I liked best was when he talked about Hoiberg being too passive a coach...that he preferred a coach that rides him a little more. Well, he will certainly have that in Thibs! Lip has pointed out before how some players respond favorably to Thibs' coaching style (Zach, unfortunately for instance), and some don't (perhaps Wig and KAT). I see it as a really good thing that our best player now will be a guy who appreciates Thibs' aggressive hands-on coaching style. Maybe Butler will be enough of a leader to help Wig and KAT feel more comfortable with Thibs and really flourish under him. If so, this trade gets even better.
I'm interested to see what happens to KAT and Wiggins when challenged by a teammate. They haven't had a peer with the clout to demand anything of them since KG. When adversity comes and Jimmy tries going into leader mode will KAT and Wiggins meet him or wilt under the confrontation?
foye2smith wrote:I'm interested to see what happens to KAT and Wiggins when challenged by a teammate. They haven't had a peer with the clout to demand anything of them since KG. When adversity comes and Jimmy tries going into leader mode will KAT and Wiggins meet him or wilt under the confrontation?
It is great. I'm sure there will be some learning experiences. But once they start winning I think everything is going to be fine.
