Windhorst: Towns and Butler pushing for Irving trade

[AbeVigodaLive]

I think Wiggins will eventually be a better all around player.

The most Minnesotan statement ever! We always prefer the "Might be" over the "Already is". On the one hand I feel the same, how do you risk losing out on the immense potential that Wiggins represents? On the other hand none of the Wolves potential has brought a single playoff loss, much less win in just about forever.

I've come to the conclusion that I just don't care. I don't want to think about it anymore, I just want to watch the Wolves win, however Thibs feels is best do it.

Keep in mind that Irving is a very one-way player, maybe even more than Andrew is today. He's never done anything without Lebron on the court with him. He's going to eventually bring back more than he's worth.

To be fair... LeBron James or not... Irving was the clear #2 (and sometimes 1b) player on a title team and two-time runner-up.

He's played well to exceptional in the Finals overall. That shouldn't be dismissed just because James was on the court.

[Coolbreeze44]

I think Wiggins will eventually be a better all around player.

The most Minnesotan statement ever! We always prefer the "Might be" over the "Already is". On the one hand I feel the same, how do you risk losing out on the immense potential that Wiggins represents? On the other hand none of the Wolves potential has brought a single playoff loss, much less win in just about forever.

I've come to the conclusion that I just don't care. I don't want to think about it anymore, I just want to watch the Wolves win, however Thibs feels is best do it.

Keep in mind that Irving is a very one-way player, maybe even more than Andrew is today. He's never done anything without Lebron on the court with him. He's going to eventually bring back more than he's worth.

To be fair... LeBron James or not... Irving was the clear #2 (and sometimes 1b) player on a title team and two-time runner-up.

He's played well to exceptional in the Finals overall. That shouldn't be dismissed just because James was on the court.

To be fair....check out Kyrie's plus minus numbers when he was on the court without Lebron.

[SameOldNudityDrew]

I think Wiggins will eventually be a better all around player.

The most Minnesotan statement ever! We always prefer the "Might be" over the "Already is". On the one hand I feel the same, how do you risk losing out on the immense potential that Wiggins represents? On the other hand none of the Wolves potential has brought a single playoff loss, much less win in just about forever.

I've come to the conclusion that I just don't care. I don't want to think about it anymore, I just want to watch the Wolves win, however Thibs feels is best do it.

Keep in mind that Irving is a very one-way player, maybe even more than Andrew is today. He's never done anything without Lebron on the court with him. He's going to eventually bring back more than he's worth.

Kyrie and Wiggins are similar in that they are both great offensive players and horrible defensive players. The disparity for Kyrie is so much bigger in part because he's an even better scorer, and more efficient than Wiggins.

I'd rather have Kyrie than Wiggins, because I think Kyrie is a better offensive player, it seems easier to live with a bad defender at PG than on the wing, and because having a star PG seems so crucial these days.

But I'd still much rather have a more two-way player than both of those guys, which is why I'm really wishing we had traded Wiggins for Paul George this offseason, and why I'd rather not get Kyrie.

In terms of what Kyrie brings back, I think should be a pretty good haul because he is a young, star PG locked under contract for a couple more years at a good price. But stars aren't getting what they used to in trades these days, Kyrie's timing really limits the Cavs' choices, and everybody knows his defensive weaknesses and injury history, so I wouldn't be surprised if the Cavs don't actually get THAT much for him. The Cavs are under pressure to get this done soon, but to get the best deal, they may have to wait, and ironically, their best chance probably already passed them by before the draft and free agency began. They'll try to publicly auction him off to the highest bidder, but teams aren't in as good a position to bid now. It's really a shitshow in Cleveland these days.

[Monster]

I think Wiggins will eventually be a better all around player.

The most Minnesotan statement ever! We always prefer the "Might be" over the "Already is". On the one hand I feel the same, how do you risk losing out on the immense potential that Wiggins represents? On the other hand none of the Wolves potential has brought a single playoff loss, much less win in just about forever.

I've come to the conclusion that I just don't care. I don't want to think about it anymore, I just want to watch the Wolves win, however Thibs feels is best do it.

Keep in mind that Irving is a very one-way player, maybe even more than Andrew is today. He's never done anything without Lebron on the court with him. He's going to eventually bring back more than he's worth.

A couple thoughts.

So we are loving in the land of planning for promise and potential. Let's go down that road. Let's say Wiggins is ends up just being Demar Derozen but with a league average 3 point shot but don't really become much of a playmaker rebounder or defender. That's a pretty good player. I think we can agree that's a reasonable expectation of his upside because...heck he is nearly there and the guy is just 22. How does that type of offensive player compare to Kyrie?

A couple reasons I would not be in favor of dealing Wiggins for Kyrie just based on the player I outlined above and it's possible Wiggins becomes a better player than that.

1. Wing players are much harder to come by than PGs. Sure top level PGs are really nice to have but it seems more likely to be able to add a pretty good starter at PG than have to find a wing. Oh hey the Wolves have a pretty good starting PG on their roster right now! Nifty

2. If you deal Wiggins for Kyrie you are assured of 2 years with him. If you keep Wiggins and sign him to a 5 years extension you can keep him for 6 seasons. That's a huge length of time. If he ever wants out like Kyrie he will bring back plenty he would be a terrific asset. Also for all but one year he will cost less money than Kyrie.

3. Wiggins has missed 1 NBA Game. Kyrie's healthiest season he missed 7 games. Every other season he has missed at least 10 games and he is just 25 and he missed most of his freshman year in college. I'm not saying Kyrie is a total injury risk but there has to be some level of concern there.

4. Asset cost. If you deal Wiggins for Kyrie it will likely cost you some other type of asset. Maybe you can just make it Wiggins and Aldrich plus some random vet min guys claimed or whatever. You would have to move Teague at some point. Who is trading for Teague that brings you back a legit starting level player? The options of teams even being interested in Teague are going to be pretty limited and being able to work a trade with one of them and getting something worthwhile back? I have doubts. So I look at it like Wiggins and Teague vs Kyrie and Maybe a later deal like Shumpert and Frye. That's the example of the types of players I see coming back and they are less valuable than Teague.

I have a feeling Unless there is a no-brainer type deal for Kyrie Thibs and Layden are going to want to see the group they have assembled together this offseason and see what they can do. If Kyrie really does absolutely want to be the man I'll pass on him because I don't want to see him pissed when Butler and Towns has the ball or him dribbling the air out of the ball getting his and in general just wanting to build his brand or whatever. How will he feel when Towns is the better (and probably more popular) player? That is VERY likley to happen.

[SameOldNudityDrew]

I think Wiggins will eventually be a better all around player.

The most Minnesotan statement ever! We always prefer the "Might be" over the "Already is". On the one hand I feel the same, how do you risk losing out on the immense potential that Wiggins represents? On the other hand none of the Wolves potential has brought a single playoff loss, much less win in just about forever.

I've come to the conclusion that I just don't care. I don't want to think about it anymore, I just want to watch the Wolves win, however Thibs feels is best do it.

Keep in mind that Irving is a very one-way player, maybe even more than Andrew is today. He's never done anything without Lebron on the court with him. He's going to eventually bring back more than he's worth.

A couple thoughts.

So we are loving in the land of planning for promise and potential. Let's go down that road. Let's say Wiggins is ends up just being Demar Derozen but with a league average 3 point shot but don't really become much of a playmaker rebounder or defender. That's a pretty good player. I think we can agree that's a reasonable expectation of his upside because...heck he is nearly there and the guy is just 22. How does that type of offensive player compare to Kyrie?

A couple reasons I would not be in favor of dealing Wiggins for Kyrie just based on the player I outlined above and it's possible Wiggins becomes a better player than that.

1. Wing players are much harder to come by than PGs. Sure top level PGs are really nice to have but it seems more likely to be able to add a pretty good starter at PG than have to find a wing. Oh hey the Wolves have a pretty good starting PG on their roster right now! Nifty

2. If you deal Wiggins for Kyrie you are assured of 2 years with him. If you keep Wiggins and sign him to a 5 years extension you can keep him for 6 seasons. That's a huge length of time. If he ever wants out like Kyrie he will bring back plenty he would be a terrific asset. Also for all but one year he will cost less money than Kyrie.

3. Wiggins has missed 1 NBA Game. Kyrie's healthiest season he missed 7 games. Every other season he has missed at least 10 games and he is just 25 and he missed most of his freshman year in college. I'm not saying Kyrie is a total injury risk but there has to be some level of concern there.

4. Asset cost. If you deal Wiggins for Kyrie it will likely cost you some other type of asset. Maybe you can just make it Wiggins and Aldrich plus some random vet min guys claimed or whatever. You would have to move Teague at some point. Who is trading for Teague that brings you back a legit starting level player? The options of teams even being interested in Teague are going to be pretty limited and being able to work a trade with one of them and getting something worthwhile back? I have doubts. So I look at it like Wiggins and Teague vs Kyrie and Maybe a later deal like Shumpert and Frye. That's the example of the types of players I see coming back and they are less valuable than Teague.

I have a feeling Unless there is a no-brainer type deal for Kyrie Thibs and Layden are going to want to see the group they have assembled together this offseason and see what they can do. If Kyrie really does absolutely want to be the man I'll pass on him because I don't want to see him pissed when Butler and Towns has the ball or him dribbling the air out of the ball getting his and in general just wanting to build his brand or whatever. How will he feel when Towns is the better (and probably more popular) player? That is VERY likley to happen.

Yeah, this is what I really don't get about Kyrie. The dude is in the best possible position. He fits great with LeBron, and they've got a great shot at going to the finals four years in a row. He's played his best basketball with LeBron and he's still getting to play to his strengths, and he got more shots last year than LeBron. Is it possible this guy's ego is so big he wants to leave this? I just don't get it.

There's almost the opposite argument out there that Kyrie wants out because he's feeling uncertainty about LeBron possibly leaving next year, which doesn't make any sense and it almost assumes the opposite of what other reports say, that he doesn't want to play with LeBron. If that's true, that he does want to play with LeBron but is concerned he might leave, all Kyrie has to do is wait until LeBron decides next summer, and if he leaves, Kyrie can just tell the Cavs he won't extend. With just one more guaranteed year on his contract, he'll essentially force the Cavs to trade him next offseason or lose him for nothing, like Love did with us. He'd get at least one more year with LeBron, and if LeBron stays, he can stay, or if LeBron leaves, he can leave. So I can't imagine Kyrie actually wants to play with LeBron, because the "uncertainty" argument just doesn't make sense.

So it must be his ego. And that's what makes him a real concern. If you trade for him to be your number 1 guy, you better hope you have a very good two-way team built around him or you could end up with a Carmelo type of star who scores a ton but doesn't actually make his team much better. I don't want a player like that, and more importantly, I don't want a guy with the kind of mentality of actually wanting to be that kind of player.

[Monster]

I think Wiggins will eventually be a better all around player.

The most Minnesotan statement ever! We always prefer the "Might be" over the "Already is". On the one hand I feel the same, how do you risk losing out on the immense potential that Wiggins represents? On the other hand none of the Wolves potential has brought a single playoff loss, much less win in just about forever.

I've come to the conclusion that I just don't care. I don't want to think about it anymore, I just want to watch the Wolves win, however Thibs feels is best do it.

Keep in mind that Irving is a very one-way player, maybe even more than Andrew is today. He's never done anything without Lebron on the court with him. He's going to eventually bring back more than he's worth.

A couple thoughts.

So we are loving in the land of planning for promise and potential. Let's go down that road. Let's say Wiggins is ends up just being Demar Derozen but with a league average 3 point shot but don't really become much of a playmaker rebounder or defender. That's a pretty good player. I think we can agree that's a reasonable expectation of his upside because...heck he is nearly there and the guy is just 22. How does that type of offensive player compare to Kyrie?

A couple reasons I would not be in favor of dealing Wiggins for Kyrie just based on the player I outlined above and it's possible Wiggins becomes a better player than that.

1. Wing players are much harder to come by than PGs. Sure top level PGs are really nice to have but it seems more likely to be able to add a pretty good starter at PG than have to find a wing. Oh hey the Wolves have a pretty good starting PG on their roster right now! Nifty

2. If you deal Wiggins for Kyrie you are assured of 2 years with him. If you keep Wiggins and sign him to a 5 years extension you can keep him for 6 seasons. That's a huge length of time. If he ever wants out like Kyrie he will bring back plenty he would be a terrific asset. Also for all but one year he will cost less money than Kyrie.

3. Wiggins has missed 1 NBA Game. Kyrie's healthiest season he missed 7 games. Every other season he has missed at least 10 games and he is just 25 and he missed most of his freshman year in college. I'm not saying Kyrie is a total injury risk but there has to be some level of concern there.

4. Asset cost. If you deal Wiggins for Kyrie it will likely cost you some other type of asset. Maybe you can just make it Wiggins and Aldrich plus some random vet min guys claimed or whatever. You would have to move Teague at some point. Who is trading for Teague that brings you back a legit starting level player? The options of teams even being interested in Teague are going to be pretty limited and being able to work a trade with one of them and getting something worthwhile back? I have doubts. So I look at it like Wiggins and Teague vs Kyrie and Maybe a later deal like Shumpert and Frye. That's the example of the types of players I see coming back and they are less valuable than Teague.

I have a feeling Unless there is a no-brainer type deal for Kyrie Thibs and Layden are going to want to see the group they have assembled together this offseason and see what they can do. If Kyrie really does absolutely want to be the man I'll pass on him because I don't want to see him pissed when Butler and Towns has the ball or him dribbling the air out of the ball getting his and in general just wanting to build his brand or whatever. How will he feel when Towns is the better (and probably more popular) player? That is VERY likley to happen.

Yeah, this is what I really don't get about Kyrie. The dude is in the best possible position. He fits great with LeBron, and they've got a great shot at going to the finals four years in a row. He's played his best basketball with LeBron and he's still getting to play to his strengths, and he got more shots last year than LeBron. Is it possible this guy's ego is so big he wants to leave this? I just don't get it.

There's almost the opposite argument out there that Kyrie wants out because he's feeling uncertainty about LeBron possibly leaving next year, which doesn't make any sense and it almost assumes the opposite of what other reports say, that he doesn't want to play with LeBron. If that's true, that he does want to play with LeBron but is concerned he might leave, all Kyrie has to do is wait until LeBron decides next summer, and if he leaves, Kyrie can just tell the Cavs he won't extend. With just one more guaranteed year on his contract, he'll essentially force the Cavs to trade him next offseason or lose him for nothing, like Love did with us. He'd get at least one more year with LeBron, and if LeBron stays, he can stay, or if LeBron leaves, he can leave. So I can't imagine Kyrie actually wants to play with LeBron, because the "uncertainty" argument just doesn't make sense.

So it must be his ego. And that's what makes him a real concern. If you trade for him to be your number 1 guy, you better hope you have a very good two-way team built around him or you could end up with a Carmelo type of star who scores a ton but doesn't actually make his team much better. I don't want a player like that, and more importantly, I don't want a guy with the kind of mentality of actually wanting to be that kind of player.

Good points.

One thing that came up when Windhorst was on Wolfson's podcast was that Glen said Wiggins was off the table when the Butler deal was being discussed. Would Wiggins be considered for Kyrie? Would Glen be interested in dealing another young guy he likes for someone else that may cost him even more money down the road? Both of those guys thought that whether Glen would be open to dealing Wiggins was something to consider and It seems like anyone that knows anything basically has said they think Thibs loves Wiggins.

[SameOldNudityDrew]

On a somewhat related matter, the Cavs just signed Derrick Rose. He actually had a pretty good year last year, although injuries have obviously taken their toll on that guy.

[Monster]

On a somewhat related matter, the Cavs just signed Derrick Rose. He actually had a pretty good year last year, although injuries have obviously taken their toll on that guy.

For the vet min if he can play just 60 games that's a bargain. The guy can still play and if you have a lot of shooting next to him (which the Cavs will) that's even better.

[khans2k5 [enjin:6608728]]

At the end of the day, why are MN and SA on his list of 4 if he really cares so much about being the guy? SA is very clearly Kawhi's team and we have Butler and Towns here already. Miami and NY make more sense from an ego standpoint, but there is a reason MN and SA are on the list and I have to believe the move has more to do with being tired of playing next to Lebron than just being the guy.

[Monster]

Interesting article. Supposedly the Cavs are asking for a ransom for Kyrie and quite frankly they should.

http://www.espn.com/nba/story/_/id/20144300/zach-lowe-kyrie-irving-cleveland-cavaliers-potential-trades-nba