kekgeek1 wrote:A guy from espn reporting wolves and Clippers after tony allen
Yeah....certainly would help with the defensive culture aspect of things and I'm pretty sure he can still defend the hell out of people in fairly limited minutes. But unlike Thabo, who is at least mediocre from beyond the arc, Allen is a total nonfactor. Not ideal of course, but we're looking between couch cushions at this point.....
The more I think about Thibs' moves after the Butler deal the angrier I get. We'd have about $15 million in cap room if we hadn't signed Butler. Guys like Patterson, Teo and CJ Miles have signed for round $6-7 million. Ilyasova will likely sign for something in that range if not lower. I also wish we had draft John Collins who I think can contribute rebounding and efficient scoring in close as a rookie off the bench. But here we are, hoping that the 35-year old, injury-prone Tony Allen will sign with us for the vet minimum rather than the Clippers. Taj had better be very, very good these next two seasons.
Let's remember that you are basically talking about bench players and there is no guarantee that you would have gotten 3 guys with that money. Let's let this play out more.
Yes, Miles, Patterson and Teo would probably be bench players, but that's exactly what we need. No guaranteed we would have gotten all three, but we know we would have gotten at least one, CJ Miles, for around $7.5 million per year because we had a deal worked out with him, but the Pacers declined to agree to a deal. Given that Patterson signed for less than $6.5 million per year, it would seem likely we could have gotten him for $7.5 million per year. That would be the $15 million we'd have if we hadn't signed Taj ($14 million to Taj and the $1 million remaining cap space we currently have). If we hadn't done the Ricky/Teague swap we'd have the $5 million per year cap space to match Utah's offer to Thabo. It seems reasonable to assume that Thabo would have come here for the same money over Utah given that we have a much better chance of winning. Or maybe the $5 million would have been enough for Teo or Ilyasova. And we still could have signed Crawford to the room exception. I'd feel a lot better with that kind of depth -- Patterson, Miles, Thabo and Crawford, then what we have now - Taj and Crawford. Going into next season with absolutly no two-way wings off the bench is a prescription for disaster.
lipoli390 wrote:We have 3 roster spots left to fill (assuming Thibs leaves the 15th spot open for now). With Thabo signing elsewhere, I'd like to see us pass on Tony Allen and sign the best three summer league or young NBA prospects available with whatever cap room we have left or with minimum salaries. Thibs and others in our organization have been in Vegas scouting the summer league and presumably they've been studying video and talking to people about other young NBA free agents like Ian Clark, Tyler Ennis, James Young and Troy Williams. It's time to see some dividends from all that scouting. It's time for our front office to show us they can find the proverbial diamond in the rough that top franchise front offices find from time to time. I don't want another one-why player in his 30s on this team. Crawford is enough.
First they should put in a waiver claim on Nwaba. If you like watching Dunn play defense check this guy out.
Just got done watching some videos of this guy. Yes, very Dunn-like on the defensive end. But a much better finisher and more explosive vertically than Dunn on the offensive end. I'd love to sign this guy. Looking at his defense, why would we fill a roster spot with a 35-year old one-way defensive players like Tony Allen when we can fill that spot with a 23-year old athletic defender with upside like Nwaba? Now I don't know if we could get Nwaba here for the minimum salary given the interest other teams with cap space will likely have in him, but if I were in Thibs shoes I'd make a very aggressive pitch to sign him with Butler and Taj lobbying the young kid to come here and learn from them how to be a great pro.
kekgeek1 wrote:A guy from espn reporting wolves and Clippers after tony allen
Yeah....certainly would help with the defensive culture aspect of things and I'm pretty sure he can still defend the hell out of people in fairly limited minutes. But unlike Thabo, who is at least mediocre from beyond the arc, Allen is a total nonfactor. Not ideal of course, but we're looking between couch cushions at this point.....
The more I think about Thibs' moves after the Butler deal the angrier I get. We'd have about $15 million in cap room if we hadn't signed Butler. Guys like Patterson, Teo and CJ Miles have signed for round $6-7 million. Ilyasova will likely sign for something in that range if not lower. I also wish we had draft John Collins who I think can contribute rebounding and efficient scoring in close as a rookie off the bench. But here we are, hoping that the 35-year old, injury-prone Tony Allen will sign with us for the vet minimum rather than the Clippers. Taj had better be very, very good these next two seasons.
Let's remember that you are basically talking about bench players and there is no guarantee that you would have gotten 3 guys with that money. Let's let this play out more.
Yes, Miles, Patterson and Teo would probably be bench players, but that's exactly what we need. No guaranteed we would have gotten all three, but we know we would have gotten at least one, CJ Miles, for around $7.5 million per year because we had a deal worked out with him, but the Pacers declined to agree to a deal. Given that Patterson signed for less than $6.5 million per year, it would seem likely we could have gotten him for $7.5 million per year. That would be the $15 million we'd have if we hadn't signed Taj ($14 million to Taj and the $1 million remaining cap space we currently have). If we hadn't done the Ricky/Teague swap we'd have the $5 million per year cap space to match Utah's offer to Thabo. It seems reasonable to assume that Thabo would have come here for the same money over Utah given that we have a much better chance of winning. Or maybe the $5 million would have been enough for Teo or Ilyasova. And we still could have signed Crawford to the room exception. I'd feel a lot better with that kind of depth -- Patterson, Miles, Thabo and Crawford, then what we have now - Taj and Crawford. Going into next season with absolutly no two-way wings off the bench is a prescription for disaster.
Wolfson reported in his last podcast that the deal for miles was more than he got in Toronto. That makes sense because basically Toronto was up against the Lux tax and likely said that's all they were willing to do. The Wolves if they made that deal could have offered more and it would have been fair. We don't know if Thabo would have signed for that money or if he would have demanded more. If we hadN't spent spent 14 million on Gibson we likely would have gotten 2 players for that price but which players would they be and how much better would they be that what we end up with when the dust settles? We don't know a lot of information so we can't just assume we could have gotten guys for certain money because that's what they got elsewhere. It's all the information we have but it's not absolute info either if you get what ai mean.
lipoli390 wrote:We have 3 roster spots left to fill (assuming Thibs leaves the 15th spot open for now). With Thabo signing elsewhere, I'd like to see us pass on Tony Allen and sign the best three summer league or young NBA prospects available with whatever cap room we have left or with minimum salaries. Thibs and others in our organization have been in Vegas scouting the summer league and presumably they've been studying video and talking to people about other young NBA free agents like Ian Clark, Tyler Ennis, James Young and Troy Williams. It's time to see some dividends from all that scouting. It's time for our front office to show us they can find the proverbial diamond in the rough that top franchise front offices find from time to time. I don't want another one-why player in his 30s on this team. Crawford is enough.
First they should put in a waiver claim on Nwaba. If you like watching Dunn play defense check this guy out.
Just got done watching some videos of this guy. Yes, very Dunn-like on the defensive end. But a much better finisher and more explosive vertically than Dunn on the offensive end. I'd love to sign this guy. Looking at his defense, why would we fill a roster spot with a 35-year old one-way defensive players like Tony Allen when we can fill that spot with a 23-year old athletic defender with upside like Nwaba? Now I don't know if we could get Nwaba here for the minimum salary given the interest other teams with cap space will likely have in him, but if I were in Thibs shoes I'd make a very aggressive pitch to sign him with Butler and Taj lobbying the young kid to come here and learn from them how to be a great pro.
He is on waivers the only thing keeping us from getting him is a worse team claiming him. Since he is a local kid Inwould think the Lakers hope to resign him after clearing waivers and another team would probably have to offer a decent chunk more money to get him away which the Wolves can't do unless maybe the offered 3 years guaranteed at the vet min or something which would be a gamble...and might not be a smart one if it doesn't work out. It's funny that 2 of the guys ai would like to add to this squad are from the Lakers in Nwaba and Tyler Ennis. I would think some team would offer Ennis a bit more and with a possible larger role but I like what I have seen out of him.
As for who we should add I think adding a legit even if older vet wing makes some sense. You are pretty cranky about old guys. Lol if we can get a Brandon Rush or Matt Barnes type for the vet min we should do it. We should add someone who is experienced as a backup SF. It would be a little crazy to just give the rest of those wing spots to young flyer types who may not even be able to play. I think you would like to hear what Thibs had to say about younger players they could bring in when he was on with Sid a few days ago. He seemed plenty interested in developing some of the guys you are suggesting and even said that 15th spot could go to a younger player that they brought to camp etc.
Just a tidbit about how much we can offer -- we apparently have almost 2.6 mil in cap space left, which will go away when we sign Crawford. It means we can offer someone more than a vet min contract in the next few days.
60WinTim wrote:Just a tidbit about how much we can offer -- we apparently have almost 2.6 mil in cap space left, which will go away when we sign Crawford. It means we can offer someone more than a vet min contract in the next few days.
Let's dig deeper into that number. So we have what looks to be the numbers in for Gibson and Teague and the space we have adds up to $2,559,417. That number is lowered by $815,615 charge (0 year experience minimum) for each roster spot to get up to 12 guaranteed spots. So we have about $1.743 million is the max we could offer offer someone which basically means you are signing a guy with little (player with 1 year experience is 1.3 million) or no experience to get him away from another team and the league doesn't pay in because it isn't a vet min salary. Whatever room we have is functionally pretty much negligible unless you are willing to sign a guy that hasn't played in the league yet away from another team. The one advantage may be of you use more than the vet min you may be able to do longer contracts which could be significant. Ok we have now reached past my pay grade of knowledge. Lol
60WinTim wrote:Just a tidbit about how much we can offer -- we apparently have almost 2.6 mil in cap space left, which will go away when we sign Crawford. It means we can offer someone more than a vet min contract in the next few days.
Let's dig deeper into that number. So we have what looks to be the numbers in for Gibson and Teague and the space we have adds up to $2,559,417. That number is lowered by $815,615 charge (0 year experience minimum) for each roster spot to get up to 12 guaranteed spots. So we have about $1.743 million is the max we could offer offer someone which basically means you are signing a guy with little (player with 1 year experience is 1.3 million) or no experience to get him away from another team and the league doesn't pay in because it isn't a vet min salary. Whatever room we have is functionally pretty much negligible unless you are willing to sign a guy that hasn't played in the league yet away from another team. The one advantage may be of you use more than the vet min you may be able to do longer contracts which could be significant. Ok we have now reached past my pay grade of knowledge. Lol
Oops! Forgot about the one more roster charge...
Of course, we could sign a vet minimum contract, which only partially counts against the cap (e.g. less than the 815K roster charge), which ought to get to the 2 mil mark!
But I have no idea how accurate these numbers are, and whether they take into account bonuses and incentives that may have been earned.
kekgeek1 wrote:A guy from espn reporting wolves and Clippers after tony allen
Yeah....certainly would help with the defensive culture aspect of things and I'm pretty sure he can still defend the hell out of people in fairly limited minutes. But unlike Thabo, who is at least mediocre from beyond the arc, Allen is a total nonfactor. Not ideal of course, but we're looking between couch cushions at this point.....
The more I think about Thibs' moves after the Butler deal the angrier I get. We'd have about $15 million in cap room if we hadn't signed Butler. Guys like Patterson, Teo and CJ Miles have signed for round $6-7 million. Ilyasova will likely sign for something in that range if not lower. I also wish we had draft John Collins who I think can contribute rebounding and efficient scoring in close as a rookie off the bench. But here we are, hoping that the 35-year old, injury-prone Tony Allen will sign with us for the vet minimum rather than the Clippers. Taj had better be very, very good these next two seasons.
Let's remember that you are basically talking about bench players and there is no guarantee that you would have gotten 3 guys with that money. Let's let this play out more.
Yes, Miles, Patterson and Teo would probably be bench players, but that's exactly what we need. No guaranteed we would have gotten all three, but we know we would have gotten at least one, CJ Miles, for around $7.5 million per year because we had a deal worked out with him, but the Pacers declined to agree to a deal. Given that Patterson signed for less than $6.5 million per year, it would seem likely we could have gotten him for $7.5 million per year. That would be the $15 million we'd have if we hadn't signed Taj ($14 million to Taj and the $1 million remaining cap space we currently have). If we hadn't done the Ricky/Teague swap we'd have the $5 million per year cap space to match Utah's offer to Thabo. It seems reasonable to assume that Thabo would have come here for the same money over Utah given that we have a much better chance of winning. Or maybe the $5 million would have been enough for Teo or Ilyasova. And we still could have signed Crawford to the room exception. I'd feel a lot better with that kind of depth -- Patterson, Miles, Thabo and Crawford, then what we have now - Taj and Crawford. Going into next season with absolutly no two-way wings off the bench is a prescription for disaster.
Wolfson reported in his last podcast that the deal for miles was more than he got in Toronto. That makes sense because basically Toronto was up against the Lux tax and likely said that's all they were willing to do. The Wolves if they made that deal could have offered more and it would have been fair. We don't know if Thabo would have signed for that money or if he would have demanded more. If we hadN't spent spent 14 million on Gibson we likely would have gotten 2 players for that price but which players would they be and how much better would they be that what we end up with when the dust settles? We don't know a lot of information so we can't just assume we could have gotten guys for certain money because that's what they got elsewhere. It's all the information we have but it's not absolute info either if you get what ai mean.
There's no way any of us can know for certain who would have signed here and for what amount. But we can draw reasonable inferences based on what the Wolves have to offer as well as what players signed for elsewhere. So I think it's reasonable to assume that we could have used the roughly $15.7 million in cap space we would have had absent the Taj deal to sign CJ Miles and at least one of the following: Teodosic, Patterson, Ilyasova, Thabo or Afflalo. And I think (my opinion) that we'd be much better off with CJ and one of those five than we are with just Taj. I also think we'd be much better off with John Collins rather than Justin Patton because, injury aside, I think Collins could help this season with his rebounding off the bench. Again, I don't think any of Thibs' moves fall into the boneheaded category like so many moves of past Wolves executives. But I still disagree with his post-Butler moves.
60WinTim wrote:Just a tidbit about how much we can offer -- we apparently have almost 2.6 mil in cap space left, which will go away when we sign Crawford. It means we can offer someone more than a vet min contract in the next few days.
Let's dig deeper into that number. So we have what looks to be the numbers in for Gibson and Teague and the space we have adds up to $2,559,417. That number is lowered by $815,615 charge (0 year experience minimum) for each roster spot to get up to 12 guaranteed spots. So we have about $1.743 million is the max we could offer offer someone which basically means you are signing a guy with little (player with 1 year experience is 1.3 million) or no experience to get him away from another team and the league doesn't pay in because it isn't a vet min salary. Whatever room we have is functionally pretty much negligible unless you are willing to sign a guy that hasn't played in the league yet away from another team. The one advantage may be of you use more than the vet min you may be able to do longer contracts which could be significant. Ok we have now reached past my pay grade of knowledge. Lol
Oops! Forgot about the one more roster charge...
Of course, we could sign a vet minimum contract, which only partially counts against the cap (e.g. less than the 815K roster charge), which ought to get to the 2 mil mark!
But I have no idea how accurate these numbers are, and whether they take into account bonuses and incentives that may have been earned.
Basketball insiders is pretty legit its where I got my numbers. Its rumored they have a source from the league office that gets them their numbers. There could be some changes like you said but it doesn't sound that way. There are lots of minutiae to sort through which is fun and plenty confusing at the same time.
I'm pretty certain the vet min contracts costs fully towards the cap its just that the team gets financial savings with the league paying part of the salary.
One possible loophole to get a bit more money would be if they signed a player to a two-way contract and if that counted toward the 12 minimum players that would save them money. I don't remember the number that a 2-way contract is but its less. Still its likely only going to give them a little over 2 million to offer one player which means offering a younger player. I am sure they are looking at all option, but no indications on what younger type guys that that space would be helpful to sign would be. Right now I am just irrationally pounding the table for a waiver claim on Nwaba!!! lol
lipoli390 wrote:We have 3 roster spots left to fill (assuming Thibs leaves the 15th spot open for now). With Thabo signing elsewhere, I'd like to see us pass on Tony Allen and sign the best three summer league or young NBA prospects available with whatever cap room we have left or with minimum salaries. Thibs and others in our organization have been in Vegas scouting the summer league and presumably they've been studying video and talking to people about other young NBA free agents like Ian Clark, Tyler Ennis, James Young and Troy Williams. It's time to see some dividends from all that scouting. It's time for our front office to show us they can find the proverbial diamond in the rough that top franchise front offices find from time to time. I don't want another one-why player in his 30s on this team. Crawford is enough.
First they should put in a waiver claim on Nwaba. If you like watching Dunn play defense check this guy out.
Just got done watching some videos of this guy. Yes, very Dunn-like on the defensive end. But a much better finisher and more explosive vertically than Dunn on the offensive end. I'd love to sign this guy. Looking at his defense, why would we fill a roster spot with a 35-year old one-way defensive players like Tony Allen when we can fill that spot with a 23-year old athletic defender with upside like Nwaba? Now I don't know if we could get Nwaba here for the minimum salary given the interest other teams with cap space will likely have in him, but if I were in Thibs shoes I'd make a very aggressive pitch to sign him with Butler and Taj lobbying the young kid to come here and learn from them how to be a great pro.
He is on waivers the only thing keeping us from getting him is a worse team claiming him. Since he is a local kid Inwould think the Lakers hope to resign him after clearing waivers and another team would probably have to offer a decent chunk more money to get him away which the Wolves can't do unless maybe the offered 3 years guaranteed at the vet min or something which would be a gamble...and might not be a smart one if it doesn't work out. It's funny that 2 of the guys ai would like to add to this squad are from the Lakers in Nwaba and Tyler Ennis. I would think some team would offer Ennis a bit more and with a possible larger role but I like what I have seen out of him.
As for who we should add I think adding a legit even if older vet wing makes some sense. You are pretty cranky about old guys. Lol if we can get a Brandon Rush or Matt Barnes type for the vet min we should do it. We should add someone who is experienced as a backup SF. It would be a little crazy to just give the rest of those wing spots to young flyer types who may not even be able to play. I think you would like to hear what Thibs had to say about younger players they could bring in when he was on with Sid a few days ago. He seemed plenty interested in developing some of the guys you are suggesting and even said that 15th spot could go to a younger player that they brought to camp etc.
Yes Monster, I am getting a bit cranky about old guys. :) We've gotten considerably older going from Dunn, LaVine, Bazz and Ricky to Butler, Teague, Taj and Crawford. I can't complain about the Butler deal given how good he is and the fact that he'll still be only 28 when the season starts. But with the vets like CJ Miles and Thabo now unavailable, I think it's time to fill our few remaining roster spots with younger, athletic upside guys. We have plenty of older highly experienced vets on this team in Butler, Taj, Teague and Crawford. And it's not like Gorgui, Andrew and even KAT are neophytes as Gorgui will be entering his 5th season, Wiggins his 4th and KAT his 3rd. Tony Allen is a 35-year old one-way defensive specialist who's been breaking down physically. I'd rather have a young, athletic player with upside like Nwaba or Ennis.
I'd offer one or the other our remaining $1.7 million in cap space (slightly higher than the vet minimum without any limit on years) on a 3 or 4 year deal. I don't see that as a gamble. The amount per year is so low that it wouldn't make a significant dent in our cap space and would be very moveable. Unfortunately, I suspect those guys will be offered more money by some other team. But I'd put a full-court press on getting Nwaba, using Butler and Taj to carry the message that he could be a key piece of the puzzle for us.
