Final Wolves Free Agent Additions

[Monster]

A guy from espn reporting wolves and Clippers after tony allen

Yeah....certainly would help with the defensive culture aspect of things and I'm pretty sure he can still defend the hell out of people in fairly limited minutes. But unlike Thabo, who is at least mediocre from beyond the arc, Allen is a total nonfactor. Not ideal of course, but we're looking between couch cushions at this point.....

The more I think about Thibs' moves after the Butler deal the angrier I get. We'd have about $15 million in cap room if we hadn't signed Butler. Guys like Patterson, Teo and CJ Miles have signed for round $6-7 million. Ilyasova will likely sign for something in that range if not lower. I also wish we had draft John Collins who I think can contribute rebounding and efficient scoring in close as a rookie off the bench. But here we are, hoping that the 35-year old, injury-prone Tony Allen will sign with us for the vet minimum rather than the Clippers. Taj had better be very, very good these next two seasons.

Let's remember that you are basically talking about bench players and there is no guarantee that you would have gotten 3 guys with that money. Let's let this play out more.

Yes, Miles, Patterson and Teo would probably be bench players, but that's exactly what we need. No guaranteed we would have gotten all three, but we know we would have gotten at least one, CJ Miles, for around $7.5 million per year because we had a deal worked out with him, but the Pacers declined to agree to a deal. Given that Patterson signed for less than $6.5 million per year, it would seem likely we could have gotten him for $7.5 million per year. That would be the $15 million we'd have if we hadn't signed Taj ($14 million to Taj and the $1 million remaining cap space we currently have). If we hadn't done the Ricky/Teague swap we'd have the $5 million per year cap space to match Utah's offer to Thabo. It seems reasonable to assume that Thabo would have come here for the same money over Utah given that we have a much better chance of winning. Or maybe the $5 million would have been enough for Teo or Ilyasova. And we still could have signed Crawford to the room exception. I'd feel a lot better with that kind of depth -- Patterson, Miles, Thabo and Crawford, then what we have now - Taj and Crawford. Going into next season with absolutly no two-way wings off the bench is a prescription for disaster.

Wolfson reported in his last podcast that the deal for miles was more than he got in Toronto. That makes sense because basically Toronto was up against the Lux tax and likely said that's all they were willing to do. The Wolves if they made that deal could have offered more and it would have been fair. We don't know if Thabo would have signed for that money or if he would have demanded more. If we hadN't spent spent 14 million on Gibson we likely would have gotten 2 players for that price but which players would they be and how much better would they be that what we end up with when the dust settles? We don't know a lot of information so we can't just assume we could have gotten guys for certain money because that's what they got elsewhere. It's all the information we have but it's not absolute info either if you get what ai mean.

There's no way any of us can know for certain who would have signed here and for what amount. But we can draw reasonable inferences based on what the Wolves have to offer as well as what players signed for elsewhere. So I think it's reasonable to assume that we could have used the roughly $15.7 million in cap space we would have had absent the Taj deal to sign CJ Miles and at least one of the following: Teodosic, Patterson, Ilyasova, Thabo or Afflalo. And I think (my opinion) that we'd be much better off with CJ and one of those five than we are with just Taj. I also think we'd be much better off with John Collins rather than Justin Patton because, injury aside, I think Collins could help this season with his rebounding off the bench. Again, I don't think any of Thibs' moves fall into the boneheaded category like so many moves of past Wolves executives. But I still disagree with his post-Butler moves.

Fair enough.

I'll add this tweet I just saw.

https://twitter.com/MikePradaSBN/status/885524599332589568

"As a general rule: the contracts that cost you aren't slight overpays for good players, it's slight (or more) overpays for so-so players."

I'd say we have avoided doing that for the most part although you could probably put Aldrich in that category. I think we can agree Taj regardless of fit is a pretty good player although you will argue we did more than a slight overpay. I'm glad we have avoided being locked into some "so-so"players for longer than a couple years.

[Lipoli390]

A guy from espn reporting wolves and Clippers after tony allen

Yeah....certainly would help with the defensive culture aspect of things and I'm pretty sure he can still defend the hell out of people in fairly limited minutes. But unlike Thabo, who is at least mediocre from beyond the arc, Allen is a total nonfactor. Not ideal of course, but we're looking between couch cushions at this point.....

The more I think about Thibs' moves after the Butler deal the angrier I get. We'd have about $15 million in cap room if we hadn't signed Butler. Guys like Patterson, Teo and CJ Miles have signed for round $6-7 million. Ilyasova will likely sign for something in that range if not lower. I also wish we had draft John Collins who I think can contribute rebounding and efficient scoring in close as a rookie off the bench. But here we are, hoping that the 35-year old, injury-prone Tony Allen will sign with us for the vet minimum rather than the Clippers. Taj had better be very, very good these next two seasons.

Let's remember that you are basically talking about bench players and there is no guarantee that you would have gotten 3 guys with that money. Let's let this play out more.

Yes, Miles, Patterson and Teo would probably be bench players, but that's exactly what we need. No guaranteed we would have gotten all three, but we know we would have gotten at least one, CJ Miles, for around $7.5 million per year because we had a deal worked out with him, but the Pacers declined to agree to a deal. Given that Patterson signed for less than $6.5 million per year, it would seem likely we could have gotten him for $7.5 million per year. That would be the $15 million we'd have if we hadn't signed Taj ($14 million to Taj and the $1 million remaining cap space we currently have). If we hadn't done the Ricky/Teague swap we'd have the $5 million per year cap space to match Utah's offer to Thabo. It seems reasonable to assume that Thabo would have come here for the same money over Utah given that we have a much better chance of winning. Or maybe the $5 million would have been enough for Teo or Ilyasova. And we still could have signed Crawford to the room exception. I'd feel a lot better with that kind of depth -- Patterson, Miles, Thabo and Crawford, then what we have now - Taj and Crawford. Going into next season with absolutly no two-way wings off the bench is a prescription for disaster.

Wolfson reported in his last podcast that the deal for miles was more than he got in Toronto. That makes sense because basically Toronto was up against the Lux tax and likely said that's all they were willing to do. The Wolves if they made that deal could have offered more and it would have been fair. We don't know if Thabo would have signed for that money or if he would have demanded more. If we hadN't spent spent 14 million on Gibson we likely would have gotten 2 players for that price but which players would they be and how much better would they be that what we end up with when the dust settles? We don't know a lot of information so we can't just assume we could have gotten guys for certain money because that's what they got elsewhere. It's all the information we have but it's not absolute info either if you get what ai mean.

There's no way any of us can know for certain who would have signed here and for what amount. But we can draw reasonable inferences based on what the Wolves have to offer as well as what players signed for elsewhere. So I think it's reasonable to assume that we could have used the roughly $15.7 million in cap space we would have had absent the Taj deal to sign CJ Miles and at least one of the following: Teodosic, Patterson, Ilyasova, Thabo or Afflalo. And I think (my opinion) that we'd be much better off with CJ and one of those five than we are with just Taj. I also think we'd be much better off with John Collins rather than Justin Patton because, injury aside, I think Collins could help this season with his rebounding off the bench. Again, I don't think any of Thibs' moves fall into the boneheaded category like so many moves of past Wolves executives. But I still disagree with his post-Butler moves.

Fair enough.

I'll add this tweet I just saw.

https://twitter.com/MikePradaSBN/status/885524599332589568

"As a general rule: the contracts that cost you aren't slight overpays for good players, it's slight (or more) overpays for so-so players."

I'd say we have avoided doing that for the most part although you could probably put Aldrich in that category. I think we can agree Taj regardless of fit is a pretty good player although you will argue we did more than a slight overpay. I'm glad we have avoided being locked into some "so-so"players for longer than a couple years.

I agree with the tweet and I think Aldrich probably falls into that category of even more than a "slight" overpay for a less than so-so player. The Darko deal was an obvious and particularly egregious example of an overpay (more than slight) for a terrible player. Some people may forget that the Wolves used their one cap waiver under the new CBA to waive Darko's salary. Eliminate the Darko signing and that waiver could have been used for Pek's contract rather than waiting for the medical waiver. That's just one recent example of how overpays for so-so or poor players can bite you. The Troy Hudson signing many years ago was another example. Of course, sadly there are more of those in Wolves lore.

I'd put Taj in the category of a major overpay for an otherwise good player. My issue with the Taj signing is opportunity cost. It's what we could (and in my view should) have done with that cap room. But at least we know that Taj is a very solid player who will significantly upgrade our depth on the frontline.

[Monster]

Lip Pek's deal was signed after the amnesty claus was basically expired. I'm sure there would have been better uses for I though than dumping Darko. I was ok with the signing at the time based on the knowledge I had. It was a flyer on a guy with legit size talent etc. what i didn't know and based on a few reports that have come out including Darko himself they basically had to convince him to come back over here to take that money. That's like asking someone out and they say "Sure I guess" you might have a fun time but you probably don't want to be making any long term plans wit that person in your future! Lol

Let's agree that we value Taj differently. That's ok. Remember part of his salary per year is because it's only a 2 year deal which I think we both agree the 2 year deal was probably a smart move.

Ultimately we need to be a team that finds young player and plugs them in. Unfortunately we don't have an established G-league team like some other franchises like the Spurs and Houston. I've been calling for us to have one for a while and at least we do have one I wish we had at least 1 year of it being up and running for now when it actually matters. I wonder if that had happened a year sooner if Flip hadn't been ill and passed away. You have to go on with things but I could see if that may have slowed the ball on that project. I'm sure they heard plenty of time before Memphis announced they were moving on from the Iowa energy and shifted focus toward that avenue which probably will work out quite well. It's already established and the capacity of that arena is pretty big.

[Lipoli390]

Lip Pek's deal was signed after the amnesty claus was basically expired. I'm sure there would have been better uses for I though than dumping Darko. I was ok with the signing at the time based on the knowledge I had. It was a flyer on a guy with legit size talent etc. what i didn't know and based on a few reports that have come out including Darko himself they basically had to convince him to come back over here to take that money. That's like asking someone out and they say "Sure I guess" you might have a fun time but you probably don't want to be making any long term plans wit that person in your future! Lol

Let's agree that we value Taj differently. That's ok. Remember part of his salary per year is because it's only a 2 year deal which I think we both agree the 2 year deal was probably a smart move.

Ultimately we need to be a team that finds young player and plugs them in. Unfortunately we don't have an established G-league team like some other franchises like the Spurs and Houston. I've been calling for us to have one for a while and at least we do have one I wish we had at least 1 year of it being up and running for now when it actually matters. I wonder if that had happened a year sooner if Flip hadn't been ill and passed away. You have to go on with things but I could see if that may have slowed the ball on that project. I'm sure they heard plenty of time before Memphis announced they were moving on from the Iowa energy and shifted focus toward that avenue which probably will work out quite well. It's already established and the capacity of that arena is pretty big.

Monster -- I thought the Pek deal was signed before the new CBA. In any event, you didn't need hindsight to know the Darko signing was idiotic. Darko was a failure with every team he played with no improvement over time. He already had an established very public reputation as a guy who didn't care. Moreover, when the Wolves signed him, no other NBA team, not one, was pursuing him. There is something called the wisdom of consensus. The Darko signing was symptomatic of Kahn's "I'm smarter than everyone else" attitude. It's the same attitude that led him to sign Brandon Roy even though it was widely known he had no cartridge in his knees and no other team had any interest in signing him.

Let me be clear, Thibs and Layden haven't done anything remotely close to those and other moves by David Kahn. What I like about the debates we're having over the things Thibs has done and not done is that all the decisions Thibs has made have sound justification and rationale behind them, even though there is room for disagreement. For example, while I disagreed with the Rubio/Teague swap, there's no question that Teague is a better pick & roll player and a better shooter who can spread the floor more than Ricky. And there's no question that the OKC pick provides solid value to the Wolves. As another example, while it's fair for me and others to argue that we paid too much for Taj given other opportunities, there's no question that Taj is a good player who should significantly improve our defense.

Actually, my biggest beef with Thibs is his decision to draft Justin Patton instead of John Collins. This is an instance where I think Thibs put too much faith in nuanced scouting evaluations from his staff over the blatantly obvious -- i.e, actual performance. I might get to that in another thread. :)

[60WinTim]

Good stuff in "You Betcha Basketball" today. A name Jon tossed out was Chase Budinger. He also says that with FA money being so tight, there will be good vet players available for the vet minimum...

https://soundcloud.com/mnspn/you-betcha-basketball-w-jon-krawczynski-91

[Monster]

Good stuff in "You Betcha Basketball" today. A name Jon tossed out was Chase Budinger. He also says that with FA money being so tight, there will be good vet players available for the vet minimum...

https://soundcloud.com/mnspn/you-betcha-basketball-w-jon-krawczynski-91

Chase turned 29 a few weeks ago. The biggest thing is it looks like he is healthy as he played 49 games in Europe. The bad news was he didn't shoot the 3 well over there. If healthy his value may come from being a smart cutter as much as anything.

The other somewhat interesting thing Jon Said was he got the impression Thibs was looking at other team's SL roster for a possible player either for the regular roster or the Split contract guys in the G-league. Wolfson has reported Thibs has been at a game every session obviously scouting players.

[Monster]

Some names that haven't been brought up here at all or for a while that are available:

Gary Neal
Beno Udrih
Alan Anderson
KJ McDaniels
James Jones
Brian Roberts
Monte Ellis
Rodney Stucky
Rudez
Kyle Witljer (big man that shoots 3's)
Matt Barnes
Norris Cole
Derrick Williams
MICHAEL Beasley
Hollis Thompson
John Jenkins
RJ Hunter
Kendall Marshall
Ray McCallum
Mario chalmers

Some of these names are absolutely bottom of the barrel but many have some possible level of worth in one way or another. Some of them may not get signed by any team but quite of few of them will be. If it's another team that's a roster spot the Wolves can fill with another player. There are also some players that have been playing internationally that aren't on the FA lists that could be worthwhile in addition to international players wanting to come to the NBA. The Wolves aren't going to get their pick of guys from here on out but at some point I do think they will be able to get some useful players in here to help solidify the bench. There are going to be more players than spots. It's hard to get a compete number because teams haven't signed draft picks and some of their own FAs but I would guess at this point there are around 50-60 roster spots up for grabs and we basically only name perimeter guys on our wish lists and there are plenty useful bigs out there. We mostly don't even mention here because that's not a need.

[Lipoli390]

Some names that haven't been brought up here at all or for a while that are available:

Gary Neal
Beno Udrih
Alan Anderson
KJ McDaniels
James Jones
Brian Roberts
Monte Ellis
Rodney Stucky
Rudez
Kyle Witljer (big man that shoots 3's)
Matt Barnes
Norris Cole
Derrick Williams
MICHAEL Beasley
Hollis Thompson
John Jenkins
RJ Hunter
Kendall Marshall
Ray McCallum
Mario chalmers

Some of these names are absolutely bottom of the barrel but many have some possible level of worth in one way or another. Some of them may not get signed by any team but quite of few of them will be. If it's another team that's a roster spot the Wolves can fill with another player. There are also some players that have been playing internationally that aren't on the FA lists that could be worthwhile in addition to international players wanting to come to the NBA. The Wolves aren't going to get their pick of guys from here on out but at some point I do think they will be able to get some useful players in here to help solidify the bench. There are going to be more players than spots. It's hard to get a compete number because teams haven't signed draft picks and some of their own FAs but I would guess at this point there are around 50-60 roster spots up for grabs and we basically only name perimeter guys on our wish lists and there are plenty useful bigs out there. We mostly don't even mention here because that's not a need.

Thanks for posting this list, Monster. I feel really good about our depth up front at our C and PF positions with Taj who can back up both spots and Belly at PF. But I don't have the same good feeling about our depth at the other positions.

We have zero two-way SFs or SGs on our bench. We have a 37-year old offense-only SG in Crawford and that's it. Belly can play some SF, but he's best as a stretch 4 and, importantly, he's coming off foot surgery. We don't talk much about Belly's surgery, but he's still in a boot and you never know how a bigger guys will come back from foot surgery. I don't see anyone on any list of free agents who gives me any confidence as a 2-way rotation wing off the bench, which is what we need.

We're a little better off at PG than the wing positions. But although I like Tyus, I'm a bit uncomfortable starting the season with him as our sole backup at PG.

[Monster]

Some names that haven't been brought up here at all or for a while that are available:

Gary Neal
Beno Udrih
Alan Anderson
KJ McDaniels
James Jones
Brian Roberts
Monte Ellis
Rodney Stucky
Rudez
Kyle Witljer (big man that shoots 3's)
Matt Barnes
Norris Cole
Derrick Williams
MICHAEL Beasley
Hollis Thompson
John Jenkins
RJ Hunter
Kendall Marshall
Ray McCallum
Mario chalmers

Some of these names are absolutely bottom of the barrel but many have some possible level of worth in one way or another. Some of them may not get signed by any team but quite of few of them will be. If it's another team that's a roster spot the Wolves can fill with another player. There are also some players that have been playing internationally that aren't on the FA lists that could be worthwhile in addition to international players wanting to come to the NBA. The Wolves aren't going to get their pick of guys from here on out but at some point I do think they will be able to get some useful players in here to help solidify the bench. There are going to be more players than spots. It's hard to get a compete number because teams haven't signed draft picks and some of their own FAs but I would guess at this point there are around 50-60 roster spots up for grabs and we basically only name perimeter guys on our wish lists and there are plenty useful bigs out there. We mostly don't even mention here because that's not a need.

Thanks for posting this list, Monster. I feel really good about our depth up front at our C and PF positions with Taj who can back up both spots and Belly at PF. But I don't have the same good feeling about our depth at the other positions.

We have zero two-way SFs or SGs on our bench. We have a 37-year old offense-only SG in Crawford and that's it. Belly can play some SF, but he's best as a stretch 4 and, importantly, he's coming off foot surgery. We don't talk much about Belly's surgery, but he's still in a boot and you never know how a bigger guys will come back from foot surgery. I don't see anyone on any list of free agents who gives me any confidence as a 2-way rotation wing off the bench, which is what we need.

We're a little better off at PF than the wing positions. But although I like Tyus, I'm a bit uncomfortable starting the season with him as our sole backup at PG.

It's only July 16. There is plenty of time to get some pretty solid players and guys have plenty of options to sort out. Even some of the young fringe guys have to weight their options. 2 way contract? Try and make the actual team? International leagues? Pierre Jackson just signed with an Israeli league. There is a lot of options for guys like that. Another example, Wolfson said Charles Cooke has a few teams offering him a 2 way contract (not the Wolves yet) but he is contemplating trying to make a roster.

Belly is interesting. We all can agree this team needed to bring him at least some sort of depth at PF. Thibs brought in Gibson who is a good player and aside from the lack of shooting he compliments all the other bigs on the roster. Let's say Belly is healthy and 20 games in is in game shape and pretty much back to himself the Wolves have a glut of PF/C talent. Where do the mins come from so Gibson plays his minutes? I would guess Dieng's minutes dropnsoke to under 30mpg. I also wouldn't be shocked to see Towns minutes reduced a bit. If everyone is healthy Thibs has legit options to go to as a bit of a hammer of Towns isn't playing D etc. Unless there are injuries or fouls trouble Aldrich will never play. That still doesn't add up to even 25mpg for Taj. I've never been an advocate of Belly as a significant contributor at SF but I could absolutely see him playing there for some stretches based on matchups espcially if Gibson is on the floor with him. Ultimately you want to get your best players on the floor and he certainly could create problems for another team as a SF. It's kind of a big year for Belly as he will be headed to RFA after this year. Being restricted is a good thing for the Wolves and of FA next year is anything like this year they can likely retain him for a pretty reasonable deal which was almost imaginable a few months ago. I'm a fan of his but he also needs to show more to be a guy worthy of bringing back for even a decent chunk of money as we head towards the lux tax.

[Lipoli390]

Some names that haven't been brought up here at all or for a while that are available:

Gary Neal
Beno Udrih
Alan Anderson
KJ McDaniels
James Jones
Brian Roberts
Monte Ellis
Rodney Stucky
Rudez
Kyle Witljer (big man that shoots 3's)
Matt Barnes
Norris Cole
Derrick Williams
MICHAEL Beasley
Hollis Thompson
John Jenkins
RJ Hunter
Kendall Marshall
Ray McCallum
Mario chalmers

Some of these names are absolutely bottom of the barrel but many have some possible level of worth in one way or another. Some of them may not get signed by any team but quite of few of them will be. If it's another team that's a roster spot the Wolves can fill with another player. There are also some players that have been playing internationally that aren't on the FA lists that could be worthwhile in addition to international players wanting to come to the NBA. The Wolves aren't going to get their pick of guys from here on out but at some point I do think they will be able to get some useful players in here to help solidify the bench. There are going to be more players than spots. It's hard to get a compete number because teams haven't signed draft picks and some of their own FAs but I would guess at this point there are around 50-60 roster spots up for grabs and we basically only name perimeter guys on our wish lists and there are plenty useful bigs out there. We mostly don't even mention here because that's not a need.

Thanks for posting this list, Monster. I feel really good about our depth up front at our C and PF positions with Taj who can back up both spots and Belly at PF. But I don't have the same good feeling about our depth at the other positions.

We have zero two-way SFs or SGs on our bench. We have a 37-year old offense-only SG in Crawford and that's it. Belly can play some SF, but he's best as a stretch 4 and, importantly, he's coming off foot surgery. We don't talk much about Belly's surgery, but he's still in a boot and you never know how a bigger guys will come back from foot surgery. I don't see anyone on any list of free agents who gives me any confidence as a 2-way rotation wing off the bench, which is what we need.

We're a little better off at PF than the wing positions. But although I like Tyus, I'm a bit uncomfortable starting the season with him as our sole backup at PG.

It's only July 16. There is plenty of time to get some pretty solid players and guys have plenty of options to sort out. Even some of the young fringe guys have to weight their options. 2 way contract? Try and make the actual team? International leagues? Pierre Jackson just signed with an Israeli league. There is a lot of options for guys like that. Another example, Wolfson said Charles Cooke has a few teams offering him a 2 way contract (not the Wolves yet) but he is contemplating trying to make a roster.

Belly is interesting. We all can agree this team needed to bring him at least some sort of depth at PF. Thibs brought in Gibson who is a good player and aside from the lack of shooting he compliments all the other bigs on the roster. Let's say Belly is healthy and 20 games in is in game shape and pretty much back to himself the Wolves have a glut of PF/C talent. Where do the mins come from so Gibson plays his minutes? I would guess Dieng's minutes dropnsoke to under 30mpg. I also wouldn't be shocked to see Towns minutes reduced a bit. If everyone is healthy Thibs has legit options to go to as a bit of a hammer of Towns isn't playing D etc. Unless there are injuries or fouls trouble Aldrich will never play. That still doesn't add up to even 25mpg for Taj. I've never been an advocate of Belly as a significant contributor at SF but I could absolutely see him playing there for some stretches based on matchups espcially if Gibson is on the floor with him. Ultimately you want to get your best players on the floor and he certainly could create problems for another team as a SF. It's kind of a big year for Belly as he will be headed to RFA after this year. Being restricted is a good thing for the Wolves and of FA next year is anything like this year they can likely retain him for a pretty reasonable deal which was almost imaginable a few months ago. I'm a fan of his but he also needs to show more to be a guy worthy of bringing back for even a decent chunk of money as we head towards the lux tax.

I see Belly getting lots of minutes at SF.