Win with a poor defender at C.

[crazy-canuck [enjin:18955461]]

Is it possible? Has any team ever been a contender with a poor defender anchoring the defense?

KAT isnt a horrible defender, but he is a poor one. Dieng used to be decent, but fell off the cliff this year.

DRtG Top 10

Jazz: Gobert
Celtics: Byrnes/Horford
Spurs: Gasol/Aldridge
6ers: Embiid
Raptors: Val
Rockets: Capela
Blazers: Nurkic
Heat: Whiteside
OKC: Adams
Pistons: Drummond

Every team has a capable defender or capable defenders off the bench at the C spot. Val isnt great, but Poetl and Nogueira are good defenders. And the Spurs have POP. Drummond made some strides this year because I always thought he was pretty bad.

Bottom 10
Suns
Cavs
Kings
Wolves
Grizzlies (tanking and injuries)
Bulls
Nets
Nuggets
Knicks

Grizzlies are the only team with a good defender at the C spot, but theyve been killed by injuries. Few of the C's in this group arent bad C's, some are actually elite offensive players.

How do teams that expect to defend deal with C's that dont defend?

Can you hide them? Move them to PF? Limit their minutes and bring in bench guys that can anchor the defense like Toronto did? Just pray they get it?

[Q12543 [enjin:6621299]]

I don't think you necessarily need an elite defensive Center, but you are right that it is tough to put together a good defense if your starting Center is below average. I think it's possible to hide a poor defending Center, but then you better have some absolute bulldogs on the perimeter - Like Jordan/Pippen/Grant type bulldogs if you go back to that era! Unfortunately, we don't have that....

KAT absolutely needs to get better on that end of the floor and it's one of the keys to this team's long-term success. I don't see him playing PF...

[Lipoli390]

I don't think you necessarily need an elite defensive Center, but you are right that it is tough to put together a good defense if your starting Center is below average. I think it's possible to hide a poor defending Center, but then you better have some absolute bulldogs on the perimeter - Like Jordan/Pippen/Grant type bulldogs if you go back to that era! Unfortunately, we don't have that....

KAT absolutely needs to get better on that end of the floor and it's one of the keys to this team's long-term success. I don't see him playing PF...

I agree, Q. Towns has to get better defensively. But how much better he needs to get depends on who we have surrounding him. If Butler, Taj and Wiggins are all elite defenders, then how much better would Towns need to be? That's not a rhetorical question. I'm truly interested in your thinking on that. The Bulls were one of the greatest defensive teams in their day and maybe even when they had Jordan, Pippen and Rodman even thought they had Luc Longley as their starting center and BJ Armstrong or Steve Kerr at PG.

[Q12543 [enjin:6621299]]

I don't think you necessarily need an elite defensive Center, but you are right that it is tough to put together a good defense if your starting Center is below average. I think it's possible to hide a poor defending Center, but then you better have some absolute bulldogs on the perimeter - Like Jordan/Pippen/Grant type bulldogs if you go back to that era! Unfortunately, we don't have that....

KAT absolutely needs to get better on that end of the floor and it's one of the keys to this team's long-term success. I don't see him playing PF...

I agree, Q. Towns has to get better defensively. But how much better he needs to get depends on who we have surrounding him. If Butler, Taj and Wiggins are all elite defenders, then how much better would Towns need to be? That's not a rhetorical question. I'm truly interested in your thinking on that. The Bulls were one of the greatest defensive teams in their day and maybe even when they had Jordan, Pippen and Rodman even thought they had Luc Longley as their starting center and BJ Armstrong or Steve Kerr at PG.

I think he needs to get a lot better. Taj is good defensively, but he isn't elite. He isn't at Draymond Green's level or Al Horford's level in my opinion. He's a notch or two below them. Butler is pretty damn elite. Wiggins isn't even close to elite IMO. Gibson and Butler aren't going to get any better than what they are now and Wiggins will hopefully improve a bit more, but I don't think he ever reaches the elite level (even though he is physically capable of it).

Replacing Jamaal Crawford with a folding chair will help, so right there is low hanging fruit. The real trouble area is Dieng, who took a big step backwards this season. To CC's original point, it seems really hard to overcome two below average defensive Centers, much less one.....

[Lipoli390]

I don't think you necessarily need an elite defensive Center, but you are right that it is tough to put together a good defense if your starting Center is below average. I think it's possible to hide a poor defending Center, but then you better have some absolute bulldogs on the perimeter - Like Jordan/Pippen/Grant type bulldogs if you go back to that era! Unfortunately, we don't have that....

KAT absolutely needs to get better on that end of the floor and it's one of the keys to this team's long-term success. I don't see him playing PF...

I agree, Q. Towns has to get better defensively. But how much better he needs to get depends on who we have surrounding him. If Butler, Taj and Wiggins are all elite defenders, then how much better would Towns need to be? That's not a rhetorical question. I'm truly interested in your thinking on that. The Bulls were one of the greatest defensive teams in their day and maybe even when they had Jordan, Pippen and Rodman even thought they had Luc Longley as their starting center and BJ Armstrong or Steve Kerr at PG.

I think he needs to get a lot better. Taj is good defensively, but he isn't elite. He isn't at Draymond Green's level or Al Horford's level in my opinion. He's a notch or two below them. Butler is pretty damn elite. Wiggins isn't even close to elite IMO. Gibson and Butler aren't going to get any better than what they are now and Wiggins will hopefully improve a bit more, but I don't think he ever reaches the elite level (even though he is physically capable of it).

Replacing Jamaal Crawford with a folding chair will help, so right there is low hanging fruit. The real trouble area is Dieng, who took a big step backwards this season. To CC's original point, it seems really hard to overcome two below average defensive Centers, much less one.....

Good analysis, Q. I agree with you. I just don't know whether KAT can improve enough to make this work with the players surrounding him. You're right that Taj is good but not elite. Even worse is that he turns 33 before next season and has only one year left on his deal anyway and right now Gorgui is his heir apparent. That's troubling. I have a hard time seeing Wiggins become elite after 4 seasons playing at a level far below elite even though he improved to become a decent defender this season. Teague's not going to improve defensively at this point in his career. It will definitely help to replace Crawford with a good defensive 6th man. But it still falls far short of what I believe we need to be a good defensive team.

At the end of the day, this team has to be built around Towns unless we're prepared to blow the whole thing up. I think we have to assume that Towns only gets a little better. That means one of two things if we want to become a championship contender: (1) Surround with at least two more elite defenders in addition to Butler; or (2) revamp the offense into a high octane offense a la the Warriors or Rockets with much better ball movement, pace and three-point shooting. Actually, the best single move the Wolves could make defensively would be to replace Taj with an elite, rim-protecting big man - C or PF - to pair with Towns. But I also think some of it is coaching. As we've all seen, the Wolves defense focuses on the mid-range shot at the expense of allowing more threes. That's obviously by design and it makes or defense worse than it should be.

[crazy-canuck [enjin:18955461]]

I don't think you necessarily need an elite defensive Center, but you are right that it is tough to put together a good defense if your starting Center is below average. I think it's possible to hide a poor defending Center, but then you better have some absolute bulldogs on the perimeter - Like Jordan/Pippen/Grant type bulldogs if you go back to that era! Unfortunately, we don't have that....

KAT absolutely needs to get better on that end of the floor and it's one of the keys to this team's long-term success. I don't see him playing PF...

I agree, Q. Towns has to get better defensively. But how much better he needs to get depends on who we have surrounding him. If Butler, Taj and Wiggins are all elite defenders, then how much better would Towns need to be? That's not a rhetorical question. I'm truly interested in your thinking on that. The Bulls were one of the greatest defensive teams in their day and maybe even when they had Jordan, Pippen and Rodman even thought they had Luc Longley as their starting center and BJ Armstrong or Steve Kerr at PG.

I think he needs to get a lot better. Taj is good defensively, but he isn't elite. He isn't at Draymond Green's level or Al Horford's level in my opinion. He's a notch or two below them. Butler is pretty damn elite. Wiggins isn't even close to elite IMO. Gibson and Butler aren't going to get any better than what they are now and Wiggins will hopefully improve a bit more, but I don't think he ever reaches the elite level (even though he is physically capable of it).

Replacing Jamaal Crawford with a folding chair will help, so right there is low hanging fruit. The real trouble area is Dieng, who took a big step backwards this season. To CC's original point, it seems really hard to overcome two below average defensive Centers, much less one.....

Crawford is bad, but he can be covered by a good C.

IM watching the Bucks and they have everything you would think they could need to be a good defensive team.

Weve heard for years that Giannis and Middleton were elite defenders. They brought in Snell and Bledsoe who are also good defenders. But they were still hemorrhaging points with Monroe as their starting center. So much so that Thon and Henson took his minutes. This year, they arent that much better than us (111.86 vs 110.98). Thon is horrible and henson isnt much better even with elite defenders on the perimeter.

I agree that a back up C (like a Poetl or Bebe) would be great and allow KAT to shift to PF for minutes. The bench also wouldnt leak points as well. But i also think the defensive scheme has to fit. I think ICE may just be too difficult a concept for KAT to figure out. I dont think hes lazy except maybe in transition defense, but he does look clueless out there sometimes. I think he simply doesnt know where he should be and what he should do. And some of that has to be on Thibs and his inability to get through to him.

[Lipoli390]

I don't think you necessarily need an elite defensive Center, but you are right that it is tough to put together a good defense if your starting Center is below average. I think it's possible to hide a poor defending Center, but then you better have some absolute bulldogs on the perimeter - Like Jordan/Pippen/Grant type bulldogs if you go back to that era! Unfortunately, we don't have that....

KAT absolutely needs to get better on that end of the floor and it's one of the keys to this team's long-term success. I don't see him playing PF...

I agree, Q. Towns has to get better defensively. But how much better he needs to get depends on who we have surrounding him. If Butler, Taj and Wiggins are all elite defenders, then how much better would Towns need to be? That's not a rhetorical question. I'm truly interested in your thinking on that. The Bulls were one of the greatest defensive teams in their day and maybe even when they had Jordan, Pippen and Rodman even thought they had Luc Longley as their starting center and BJ Armstrong or Steve Kerr at PG.

I think he needs to get a lot better. Taj is good defensively, but he isn't elite. He isn't at Draymond Green's level or Al Horford's level in my opinion. He's a notch or two below them. Butler is pretty damn elite. Wiggins isn't even close to elite IMO. Gibson and Butler aren't going to get any better than what they are now and Wiggins will hopefully improve a bit more, but I don't think he ever reaches the elite level (even though he is physically capable of it).

Replacing Jamaal Crawford with a folding chair will help, so right there is low hanging fruit. The real trouble area is Dieng, who took a big step backwards this season. To CC's original point, it seems really hard to overcome two below average defensive Centers, much less one.....

Crawford is bad, but he can be covered by a good C.

IM watching the Bucks and they have everything you would think they could need to be a good defensive team.

Weve heard for years that Giannis and Middleton were elite defenders. They brought in Snell and Bledsoe who are also good defenders. But they were still hemorrhaging points with Monroe as their starting center. So much so that Thon and Henson took his minutes. This year, they arent that much better than us (111.86 vs 110.98). Thon is horrible and henson isnt much better even with elite defenders on the perimeter.

I agree that a back up C (like a Poetl or Bebe) would be great and allow KAT to shift to PF for minutes. The bench also wouldnt leak points as well. But i also think the defensive scheme has to fit. I think ICE may just be too difficult a concept for KAT to figure out. I dont think hes lazy except maybe in transition defense, but he does look clueless out there sometimes. I think he simply doesnt know where he should be and what he should do. And some of that has to be on Thibs and his inability to get through to him.

Good observations. I've never been concerned about KAT's effort or intensity. I think you hit the nail on the head. Cluelessness seems to be at the heart of KAT's defensive struggles. There has to be a way of getting through to him. He's strikes me as a smart guy. The good news is that cluelessness is something that can be overcome with experience and good coaching. If KAT's issues were related to a lack of intensity or passion, then I'd be really worried.

[longstrangetrip [enjin:6600564]]

When I think about what makes a good defensive center, I look at size/athleticism, motor and coaching. If you look at KAT's draft profile (and Gorgui Dieng's too, for that matter) there appeared to be no issues with the first two elements, and both ranked very highly in terms of defensive performance and NBA defensive potential. Unfortunately I think it is coaching (both Mitchell and Thibs) that has caused them both to fall far short of their defensive projection. Many of us here had concerns about G's offensive potential, and while KAT was clearly the consensus #1 pick here, he hadn't shown enough offensive ability in college to be a sure thing on that side of the ball. But I don't recall anybody expressing major concerns about either of them defensively...in fact, there was a great deal of excitement about both of their defensive ceilings. So isn't it fair to put a lot of the blame for KAT's poor defense on coaching?

I blame Mitchell and Thibs for KAT's shortcomings in two areas. First, neither of them seem(ed) to really hold him accountable for his poor defense, but instead treat(ed) him like a sacred cow who can't be chastised. This doesn't happen with good coaches like Pop. It doesn't matter to Pop how much of a star a player is...if he screws up on defense, he is held accountable and sometimes immediately yanked from the game. I see Thibs do this with his reserves...in fact, way too quickly in my opinion... but I have never seen him do this with KAT. And that sends KAT the clear message that defense doesn't matter...you'll continue to get your 38 minutes if you just score and rebound, no need to worry about stopping future HOFers like Clint Capella. Secondly, the coaches have to be held accountable for KAT still not "getting it" on the defensive side of the ball. KAT is by all accounts a bright guy...a good defensive coach should be able to teach him the mechanics of proper NBA defense.

Maybe my theory is wrong, and all the NBA scouts were completely wrong when they projected KAT and G to be very good NBA defenders...but I don't think so. I just think they haven't been coached well.
I still think KAT has the potential to be the very good defensive center the scouts projected him to be coming out of Kentucky...he just needs a different coach.

[kekgeek]

When I think about what makes a good defensive center, I look at size/athleticism, motor and coaching. If you look at KAT's draft profile (and Gorgui Dieng's too, for that matter) there appeared to be no issues with the first two elements, and both ranked very highly in terms of defensive performance and NBA defensive potential. Unfortunately I think it is coaching (both Mitchell and Thibs) that has caused them both to fall far short of their defensive projection. Many of us here had concerns about G's offensive potential, and while KAT was clearly the consensus #1 pick here, he hadn't shown enough offensive ability in college to be a sure thing on that side of the ball. But I don't recall anybody expressing major concerns about either of them defensively...in fact, there was a great deal of excitement about both of their defensive ceilings. So isn't it fair to put a lot of the blame for KAT's poor defense on coaching?

I blame Mitchell and Thibs for KAT's shortcomings in two areas. First, neither of them seem(ed) to really hold him accountable for his poor defense, but instead treat(ed) him like a sacred cow who can't be chastised. This doesn't happen with good coaches like Pop. It doesn't matter to Pop how much of a star a player is...if he screws up on defense, he is held accountable and sometimes immediately yanked from the game. I see Thibs do this with his reserves...in fact, way too quickly in my opinion... but I have never seen him do this with KAT. And that sends KAT the clear message that defense doesn't matter...you'll continue to get your 38 minutes if you just score and rebound, no need to worry about stopping future HOFers like Clint Capella. Secondly, the coaches have to be held accountable for KAT still not "getting it" on the defensive side of the ball. KAT is by all accounts a bright guy...a good defensive coach should be able to teach him the mechanics of proper NBA defense.

Maybe my theory is wrong, and all the NBA scouts were completely wrong when they projected KAT and G to be very good NBA defenders...but I don't think so. I just think they haven't been coached well.
I still think KAT has the potential to be the very good defensive center the scouts projected him to be coming out of Kentucky...he just needs a different coach.

Some of it might be coaching, I won't argue that one bit.

But I would like to say it is hard to scout for defense in the NBA especially for big guys. I mean I agree Kat was a good defender in college but how much does that come with the team he was on. I mean they started 3 seven ft NBA players. Also they play on a smaller court and don't have to play in space as much.

I am always worried about bigs who are known for they defense in college. Thabeet, WCS, Cole Aldrich, Noel to name a few. Reason why I would stay at away from Mo Bamba. Reggie Lynch is one of the best defensive bigs in B10 history wont get drafted. (Shitty human)

In the end I just think it is really hard to project. Coaching might have something to do with it. But until they play people who they can't physically dominate and have to play in space and all over the court it is hard to know how they will react. (I do think KAT will get there)

[Coolbreeze44]

I respectfully think a lot of good points have been brought up here. But there's a couple I take exception with. In my opinion KAT's achilles heel defensively is his base. He just can't hold position against really, anybody. It's not his fault, but until he gets strong enough to hold his own he's going to continue to resort to matador style tricks to get by. Secondarily I really don't believe he has fully committed himself mentally to being a good defender. He's totally committed to being a great rebounder so that helps. But I don't see the focus on defense and necessary commitment level.

The other point i would argue is I don't think it's possible to hide a poor defensive center. You might be able to do it in college, but not in the NBA. Further, your big man is supposed to anchor the defense and make up for the shortcomings of the rest of the lineup. Any NBA coach worth their salt can locate and expose a weak defensive player, no matter the position.