Q12543 wrote:Wiggins has played better in the playoffs than the regular season, but the bar is fairly low. Here are his playoff numbers using a few well-respected metrics:
TS% - 54% (good for Wiggins, barely average in today's NBA, keeps missing too many FTs)
PER - 14.3 (about average)
WS/48 - .054 (below average)
Net Rating -13.3 (only Teague's is worse)
.....and this is from our "best" player in the playoffs. Not good enough.
How about Otto Porter?
TS% - 60%
PER - 18.1
WS/48 - .161
Net Rating -.1
Or Joe Ingles?
TS% - 62%
PER - 14.4
WS/48 - .141
Net Rating +22.2
Or OG Anunoby?
TS% - 80% (!)
PER - 18.9
WS/48 - .215
Net Rating +4.6
It's all small sample sizes, but I don't see anything particularly special in terms of what Wiggins has done. In fact, it's decidedly meh.
The 3rd quarter last game destroyed
net ratings this series for our starters. That would need weeks of basketball to correct. Wiggins has significantly more responsibilities on the court than Ingles and OG so they aren't proper comparisons. His two way play was a major reason we won game 3 and why game 1 was even a game at all. Sometimes you just have to watch the games to see the impact and not always look at the stat sheet when just a quarter can skew those stats for a series good or bad.
I think you're shorting Ingles a bit.
The guy is guarding Paul George in that series... and chipping in an efficient 14 ppg. For the regular season... he did a bit of everything...
12 / 4 / 4. And many advanced stats are kind to the guy, including positive OBPM, DBPM and a 3.3 VORP. Wiggins was negative in all of those categories... and that's part of the dichotomy between Ingles and Wiggins.
Wiggins LOOKS like a basketball player. He LOOKS like he's good. Ingles looks like us at the YMCA. Yesterday, there was a great moment in the game with OKC when George and Ingles were going at it... and George pressured Ingles hard... who crossed him over and made a nice dish for a dunk/layup. You could see the disdain written in Ingles' face going back downcourt... basically...
"What the fuck man... you think I can't dribble? That it's a fluke I've played big minutes in 170+ straight games for a playoff team...?"
You can count on wiggins to spark conversation here no doubt.
According to the agenda driven duke, wiggins has below average skill/ talent and motor. The numbers say he cant shoot. Many here question his motor and heart. His hands are terrible. If you only go what is constantly being said about wig by duke and these board, you will probably wonder how in hell did wig just average almost 18ppg this season!
You cant say that he only did it because of his elite athletecism. Hell, we have seen derrick williams and wes johnson here and countless elite athletes all over the league who never put up stats wig do in his worst season.
worldK wrote:You can count on wiggins to spark conversation here no doubt.
According to the agenda driven duke, wiggins has below average skill/ talent and motor. The numbers say he cant shoot. Many here question his motor and heart. His hands are terrible. If you only go what is constantly being said about wig by duke and these board, you will probably wonder how in hell did wig just average almost 18ppg this season!
You cant say that he only did it because of his elite athletecism. Hell, we have seen derrick williams and wes johnson here and countless elite athletes all over the league who never put up stats wig do in his worst season.
I'd caution against letting Duke's alleged agenda skew the takes of others in this thread... and others.
Q12543 wrote:Wiggins has played better in the playoffs than the regular season, but the bar is fairly low. Here are his playoff numbers using a few well-respected metrics:
TS% - 54% (good for Wiggins, barely average in today's NBA, keeps missing too many FTs)
PER - 14.3 (about average)
WS/48 - .054 (below average)
Net Rating -13.3 (only Teague's is worse)
.....and this is from our "best" player in the playoffs. Not good enough.
How about Otto Porter?
TS% - 60%
PER - 18.1
WS/48 - .161
Net Rating -.1
Or Joe Ingles?
TS% - 62%
PER - 14.4
WS/48 - .141
Net Rating +22.2
Or OG Anunoby?
TS% - 80% (!)
PER - 18.9
WS/48 - .215
Net Rating +4.6
It's all small sample sizes, but I don't see anything particularly special in terms of what Wiggins has done. In fact, it's decidedly meh.
The 3rd quarter last game destroyed
net ratings this series for our starters. That would need weeks of basketball to correct. Wiggins has significantly more responsibilities on the court than Ingles and OG so they aren't proper comparisons. His two way play was a major reason we won game 3 and why game 1 was even a game at all. Sometimes you just have to watch the games to see the impact and not always look at the stat sheet when just a quarter can skew those stats for a series good or bad.
I think you're shorting Ingles a bit.
The guy is guarding Paul George in that series... and chipping in an efficient 14 ppg. For the regular season... he did a bit of everything...
12 / 4 / 4. And many advanced stats are kind to the guy, including positive OBPM, DBPM and a 3.3 VORP. Wiggins was negative in all of those categories... and that's part of the dichotomy between Ingles and Wiggins.
Wiggins LOOKS like a basketball player. He LOOKS like he's good. Ingles looks like us at the YMCA. Yesterday, there was a great moment in the game with OKC when George and Ingles were going at it... and George pressured Ingles hard... who crossed him over and made a nice dish for a dunk/layup. You could see the disdain written in Ingles' face going back downcourt... basically...
"What the fuck man... you think I can't dribble? That it's a fluke I've played big minutes in 170+ straight games for a playoff team...?"
You see guys like Ingles at your YMCA? Let me know where you play I'll try and avoid playing against 6'9" dudes that can shoot NBA 3's and guard almost another on a switch.
Of course I'm joking around you make a good point. I'll say this about Wiggins compared to a couple of those players listed. He is younger and this is his first playoff series. Before this string of games the most consequential games were the last game of the season (or stretch of games) or I guess the tourney with Kansas. Joe Ingles played in more consequential games in Europe than Wiggins did before this season. Porter has played in the playoffs 4 out of 5 games in his career. OG has basically been the terrific complimentary player some folks here thought he could be and done it quickly. It's been impressive. A bunch of teams are kicking themselves for passing on him...including the Wolves.
The question is whether what we saw from wiggins this playoffs is a step in the direction of where he will accend to or is it another tease? If it's the former it's pretty promising. We just have to wait and see. Q is right the stats don't show anything too special but man there were times Wiggins was literally everywhere in a good way...he reminded me of Jimmy Butler at times. Honestly I was pretty surprised with it and I've been optimistic about him for a long time. The vision of 2 nasty 2 way players that can really take it to you on both ends seemed somewhat realistic for the first time. I'm interested in seeing more. I have a hard time seeing a team giving up enough in a deal to move Wiggins but sure i'd listen.
worldK wrote:You can count on wiggins to spark conversation here no doubt.
According to the agenda driven duke, wiggins has below average skill/ talent and motor. The numbers say he cant shoot. Many here question his motor and heart. His hands are terrible. If you only go what is constantly being said about wig by duke and these board, you will probably wonder how in hell did wig just average almost 18ppg this season!
You cant say that he only did it because of his elite athletecism. Hell, we have seen derrick williams and wes johnson here and countless elite athletes all over the league who never put up stats wig do in his worst season.
I'd caution against letting Duke's alleged agenda skew the takes of others in this thread... and others.
Trusts me abe. Ive ignored a lot of duke's bias take on wiggins. But time to time, he came up with comments like wiggins having below average skills and talent. Kudos to cool for calling him out on it. But i dont see others respinding. It could be either 1. You agree with him in silence or 2. You find it absurd that you just think its better to ignore it like I do most of the time (but not this time).
worldK wrote:You can count on wiggins to spark conversation here no doubt.
According to the agenda driven duke, wiggins has below average skill/ talent and motor. The numbers say he cant shoot. Many here question his motor and heart. His hands are terrible. If you only go what is constantly being said about wig by duke and these board, you will probably wonder how in hell did wig just average almost 18ppg this season!
You cant say that he only did it because of his elite athletecism. Hell, we have seen derrick williams and wes johnson here and countless elite athletes all over the league who never put up stats wig do in his worst season.
I'd caution against letting Duke's alleged agenda skew the takes of others in this thread... and others.
Trusts me abe. Ive ignored a lot of duke's bias take on wiggins. But time to time, he came up with comments like wiggins having below average skills and talent. Kudos to cool for calling him out on it. But i dont see others respinding. It could be either 1. You agree with him in silence or 2. You find it absurd that you just think its better to ignore it like I do most of the time (but not this time).
Some takes are deliberately bad to get attention.
Don't know if Duke's are of that variety or not. I don't think I respond much to him either way though...
Q12543 wrote:Wiggins has played better in the playoffs than the regular season, but the bar is fairly low. Here are his playoff numbers using a few well-respected metrics:
TS% - 54% (good for Wiggins, barely average in today's NBA, keeps missing too many FTs)
PER - 14.3 (about average)
WS/48 - .054 (below average)
Net Rating -13.3 (only Teague's is worse)
.....and this is from our "best" player in the playoffs. Not good enough.
How about Otto Porter?
TS% - 60%
PER - 18.1
WS/48 - .161
Net Rating -.1
Or Joe Ingles?
TS% - 62%
PER - 14.4
WS/48 - .141
Net Rating +22.2
Or OG Anunoby?
TS% - 80% (!)
PER - 18.9
WS/48 - .215
Net Rating +4.6
It's all small sample sizes, but I don't see anything particularly special in terms of what Wiggins has done. In fact, it's decidedly meh.
Q, when you add in his defense he's been very good in this series. Great? No. But he's been far from our biggest problem and the frustration I feel is the microscope always lands on him here. To use Abe's phrase, let's just be fair to be fair.
To be clear, I'm not blaming him for our losses. I'm simply responding to others that I don't find anything really special in his playoff performance thus far. Would I rather have him on the floor than Jamaal Crawford or Derrick Rose? Absolutely.
Q12543 wrote:Wiggins has played better in the playoffs than the regular season, but the bar is fairly low. Here are his playoff numbers using a few well-respected metrics:
TS% - 54% (good for Wiggins, barely average in today's NBA, keeps missing too many FTs)
PER - 14.3 (about average)
WS/48 - .054 (below average)
Net Rating -13.3 (only Teague's is worse)
.....and this is from our "best" player in the playoffs. Not good enough.
How about Otto Porter?
TS% - 60%
PER - 18.1
WS/48 - .161
Net Rating -.1
Or Joe Ingles?
TS% - 62%
PER - 14.4
WS/48 - .141
Net Rating +22.2
Or OG Anunoby?
TS% - 80% (!)
PER - 18.9
WS/48 - .215
Net Rating +4.6
It's all small sample sizes, but I don't see anything particularly special in terms of what Wiggins has done. In fact, it's decidedly meh.
The 3rd quarter last game destroyed
net ratings this series for our starters. That would need weeks of basketball to correct. Wiggins has significantly more responsibilities on the court than Ingles and OG so they aren't proper comparisons. His two way play was a major reason we won game 3 and why game 1 was even a game at all. Sometimes you just have to watch the games to see the impact and not always look at the stat sheet when just a quarter can skew those stats for a series good or bad.
Butler has a Net Rating of -.9, yet he was on the floor during that meltdown. KAT and Gibson also have better Net Ratings than Wiggins.
As for Wiggins' role, I will agree he has more responsibility than OG, but certainly not Ingles. That dude has played a major role in Utah's success. How much is he being paid next year versus Wiggins?
Q12543 wrote:Wiggins has played better in the playoffs than the regular season, but the bar is fairly low. Here are his playoff numbers using a few well-respected metrics:
TS% - 54% (good for Wiggins, barely average in today's NBA, keeps missing too many FTs)
PER - 14.3 (about average)
WS/48 - .054 (below average)
Net Rating -13.3 (only Teague's is worse)
.....and this is from our "best" player in the playoffs. Not good enough.
How about Otto Porter?
TS% - 60%
PER - 18.1
WS/48 - .161
Net Rating -.1
Or Joe Ingles?
TS% - 62%
PER - 14.4
WS/48 - .141
Net Rating +22.2
Or OG Anunoby?
TS% - 80% (!)
PER - 18.9
WS/48 - .215
Net Rating +4.6
It's all small sample sizes, but I don't see anything particularly special in terms of what Wiggins has done. In fact, it's decidedly meh.
The 3rd quarter last game destroyed
net ratings this series for our starters. That would need weeks of basketball to correct. Wiggins has significantly more responsibilities on the court than Ingles and OG so they aren't proper comparisons. His two way play was a major reason we won game 3 and why game 1 was even a game at all. Sometimes you just have to watch the games to see the impact and not always look at the stat sheet when just a quarter can skew those stats for a series good or bad.
I think you're shorting Ingles a bit.
The guy is guarding Paul George in that series... and chipping in an efficient 14 ppg. For the regular season... he did a bit of everything...
12 / 4 / 4. And many advanced stats are kind to the guy, including positive OBPM, DBPM and a 3.3 VORP. Wiggins was negative in all of those categories... and that's part of the dichotomy between Ingles and Wiggins.
Wiggins LOOKS like a basketball player. He LOOKS like he's good. Ingles looks like us at the YMCA. Yesterday, there was a great moment in the game with OKC when George and Ingles were going at it... and George pressured Ingles hard... who crossed him over and made a nice dish for a dunk/layup. You could see the disdain written in Ingles' face going back downcourt... basically...
"What the fuck man... you think I can't dribble? That it's a fluke I've played big minutes in 170+ straight games for a playoff team...?"
You see guys like Ingles at your YMCA? Let me know where you play I'll try and avoid playing against 6'9" dudes that can shoot NBA 3's and guard almost another on a switch.
Of course I'm joking around you make a good point. I'll say this about Wiggins compared to a couple of those players listed. He is younger and this is his first playoff series. Before this string of games the most consequential games were the last game of the season (or stretch of games) or I guess the tourney with Kansas. Joe Ingles played in more consequential games in Europe than Wiggins did before this season. Porter has played in the playoffs 4 out of 5 games in his career. OG has basically been the terrific complimentary player some folks here thought he could be and done it quickly. It's been impressive. A bunch of teams are kicking themselves for passing on him...including the Wolves.
The question is whether what we saw from wiggins this playoffs is a step in the direction of where he will accend to or is it another tease? If it's the former it's pretty promising. We just have to wait and see. Q is right the stats don't show anything too special but man there were times Wiggins was literally everywhere in a good way...he reminded me of Jimmy Butler at times. Honestly I was pretty surprised with it and I've been optimistic about him for a long time. The vision of 2 nasty 2 way players that can really take it to you on both ends seemed somewhat realistic for the first time. I'm interested in seeing more. I have a hard time seeing a team giving up enough in a deal to move Wiggins but sure i'd listen.
I do agree we've seen more juice out of Wiggins than we have before. That's great. The results are still not very impressive. They aren't bad, they just aren't that great.
As long as we have a PG and SF that can't hit 3's in volume, Wiggins is a poor fit on this roster...unless he himself becomes a really good 3-point shooter. It's just tough to match up with a Houston or Golden State when all of your main perimeter players are low-volume 3 point shooters.
Q12543 wrote:Wiggins has played better in the playoffs than the regular season, but the bar is fairly low. Here are his playoff numbers using a few well-respected metrics:
TS% - 54% (good for Wiggins, barely average in today's NBA, keeps missing too many FTs)
PER - 14.3 (about average)
WS/48 - .054 (below average)
Net Rating -13.3 (only Teague's is worse)
.....and this is from our "best" player in the playoffs. Not good enough.
How about Otto Porter?
TS% - 60%
PER - 18.1
WS/48 - .161
Net Rating -.1
Or Joe Ingles?
TS% - 62%
PER - 14.4
WS/48 - .141
Net Rating +22.2
Or OG Anunoby?
TS% - 80% (!)
PER - 18.9
WS/48 - .215
Net Rating +4.6
It's all small sample sizes, but I don't see anything particularly special in terms of what Wiggins has done. In fact, it's decidedly meh.
The 3rd quarter last game destroyed
net ratings this series for our starters. That would need weeks of basketball to correct. Wiggins has significantly more responsibilities on the court than Ingles and OG so they aren't proper comparisons. His two way play was a major reason we won game 3 and why game 1 was even a game at all. Sometimes you just have to watch the games to see the impact and not always look at the stat sheet when just a quarter can skew those stats for a series good or bad.
I think you're shorting Ingles a bit.
The guy is guarding Paul George in that series... and chipping in an efficient 14 ppg. For the regular season... he did a bit of everything...
12 / 4 / 4. And many advanced stats are kind to the guy, including positive OBPM, DBPM and a 3.3 VORP. Wiggins was negative in all of those categories... and that's part of the dichotomy between Ingles and Wiggins.
Wiggins LOOKS like a basketball player. He LOOKS like he's good. Ingles looks like us at the YMCA. Yesterday, there was a great moment in the game with OKC when George and Ingles were going at it... and George pressured Ingles hard... who crossed him over and made a nice dish for a dunk/layup. You could see the disdain written in Ingles' face going back downcourt... basically...
"What the fuck man... you think I can't dribble? That it's a fluke I've played big minutes in 170+ straight games for a playoff team...?"
You see guys like Ingles at your YMCA? Let me know where you play I'll try and avoid playing against 6'9" dudes that can shoot NBA 3's and guard almost another on a switch.
Of course I'm joking around you make a good point. I'll say this about Wiggins compared to a couple of those players listed. He is younger and this is his first playoff series. Before this string of games the most consequential games were the last game of the season (or stretch of games) or I guess the tourney with Kansas. Joe Ingles played in more consequential games in Europe than Wiggins did before this season. Porter has played in the playoffs 4 out of 5 games in his career. OG has basically been the terrific complimentary player some folks here thought he could be and done it quickly. It's been impressive. A bunch of teams are kicking themselves for passing on him...including the Wolves.
The question is whether what we saw from wiggins this playoffs is a step in the direction of where he will accend to or is it another tease? If it's the former it's pretty promising. We just have to wait and see. Q is right the stats don't show anything too special but man there were times Wiggins was literally everywhere in a good way...he reminded me of Jimmy Butler at times. Honestly I was pretty surprised with it and I've been optimistic about him for a long time. The vision of 2 nasty 2 way players that can really take it to you on both ends seemed somewhat realistic for the first time. I'm interested in seeing more. I have a hard time seeing a team giving up enough in a deal to move Wiggins but sure i'd listen.
I do agree we've seen more juice out of Wiggins than we have before. That's great. The results are still not very impressive. They aren't bad, they just aren't that great.
As long as we have a PG and SF that can't hit 3's in volume, Wiggins is a poor fit on this roster...unless he himself becomes a really good 3-point shooter. It's just tough to match up with a Houston or Golden State when all of your main perimeter players are low-volume 3 point shooters.
So Wig is the poor fit. Not the PG or the SF. I see how that works.
