8th seed is a Failure

[AbeVigodaLive]

They have more wins than I expected but given how well this team plays when it is on it's game I view Thibs as a failure to not have been able to get them to play that way more often.

All on Thibs?

Any on the players?

Any credit for Thibs for when the team is "on?" Or is that all on the players?

[Wolvesfan21]

I think the defensive atrociousness has to fall on Thibs at some point. We have players who can or should be able to play defense. Butler and Taj have both been good to great in the past. Wiggins and Towns have the physical ability to play defense. Then you have to also realize Thibs is the one who brought the players in/extended.

We can't change the players without taking a step back. Wiggins is going to be overpaid for what he has produced this season. KAT is a baller and exceptional talent on offense, obviously you have to build around him. But his defense has been lagging behind. Butler can and has played great defense so he's not "the problem."

You can't have a bottom 5 defense with payers who should perform better without having some kind of problem.

I expected the defense to be better. I think we all did.

[Q12543 [enjin:6621299]]

I think the defensive atrociousness has to fall on Thibs at some point. We have players who can or should be able to play defense. Butler and Taj have both been good to great in the past. Wiggins and Towns have the physical ability to play defense. Then you have to also realize Thibs is the one who brought the players in/extended.

We can't change the players without taking a step back. Wiggins is going to be overpaid for what he has produced this season. KAT is a baller and exceptional talent on offense, obviously you have to build around him. But his defense has been lagging behind. Butler can and has played great defense so he's not "the problem."

You can't have a bottom 5 defense with payers who should perform better without having some kind of problem.

I expected the defense to be better. I think we all did.

This.

You only need a couple of elite defensive players to build a great defense. You probably only need one elite defensive player to build an average defense. The rest falls on the coach in building a scheme, culture, and motivational tactics to do the rest.

Who are the elite defensive players on the Dallas Mavericks? They are ranked #16 in Drtg. How about the Lakers? Are Brandon Ingram, Julius Randle, Kyle Kuzma and company elite defensive talents? They are ranked 13th in Drtg.

We have Jimmy Butler, Taj Gibson, and Thibs. On paper, that should be good enough to be average defensively, if not better. Yet we have failed MISERABLY. I blame Thibs.

[Q12543 [enjin:6621299]]

It's hard to judge this team. It's a story of contradictions and expectations and disappointment and everything else. Consider...

- As Doper noted, Vegas had the Wolves at 46.5 wins. And MANY insiders thought it was too high. The team is right on the fence with 46 wins... and bettors are nervous.
- The Wolves are iso-heavy and awkward and boring and predictable offensively. They're also ranked 4th for efficiency.
- Thibs plays the starters too much. It's not sustainable. The Wolves have 3 starters at 81 games... I don't believe any other team can make that claim.

I know we all have various degrees of frustration with Thibodeau. With Wiggins. With Crawford. And everybody else. But there's not a lot here to run with for the "failure" angle.

Especially coming from an organization with its rich history of abject crappiness. Heck, even the 2014 team didn't receive this much criticism on this site. That was a Top 10 offensive AND defensive team for most of the season and should have won (Expected W/L) 48 games. They only won 40 and yet we argued for weeks/months/years with each other as we made excuses for that team. Adelman took a bit of heat. Saunders took very little.

And that team failed to meet expectations a lot more than this team. A jump from 46/47 wins to 55 is no small feat. It's HUGE.

This is a pretty objective take.

- Thibs the GM deserves credit for landing Butler and signing Taj (whose contract felt rich at the time). He nailed those two moves.

- Thibs the GM deserves massive criticism for signing Jamaal Crawford, who can single-handedly bring an entire bench unit down with poor shot selection and horrible defense.

- Thibs the Coach deserves credit for getting the most out of an offense that doesn't have any volume 3-point shot makers.

- Thibs the GM deserves criticism for not signing any volume 3-point shot makers.

- Thibs the GM and Coach deserves credit for getting this team a winning record for the first time in a while.

- Thibs the GM and Coach deserves criticism for constructing a roster of ill-fitted parts that lacks creativity and continues to be one of the worst defensive teams in the league.

[Monster]

I think the defensive atrociousness has to fall on Thibs at some point. We have players who can or should be able to play defense. Butler and Taj have both been good to great in the past. Wiggins and Towns have the physical ability to play defense. Then you have to also realize Thibs is the one who brought the players in/extended.

We can't change the players without taking a step back. Wiggins is going to be overpaid for what he has produced this season. KAT is a baller and exceptional talent on offense, obviously you have to build around him. But his defense has been lagging behind. Butler can and has played great defense so he's not "the problem."

You can't have a bottom 5 defense with payers who should perform better without having some kind of problem.

I expected the defense to be better. I think we all did.

My win prediction of 45 was based on skepticism that this team would take a significant step forward defensively. Most of that was based on what Wiggins and Towns have done or not done on that end plus the bench guys weren't expected to be anything more than solid but some like Crawford and Bazz were probably gonna be underwhelming.

Sure we added Butler and Taj but while I'm supportive of adding teague he was and is a lesser defensive player compared to Rubio. Taj is a good defender but isn't a guy that can be an absolute game changer. Butler can only do so much as one guy on the wing. Again how much is this on Towns for not being a solid or impactful big onnthe defensive end? If he doesn't figure it out it doesn't matter who coaches this team.

Some folks like Q were worried about even getting in this season. That's proven pretty smart and this hasn't been a horrible season. Why? Winning season for the first time in forever. This team had what 1 losing streak longer than 2games and it was a 3 game losing streak? That's kinda impressive.

To me it really comes down to your expectations for this season. I think this thread was more looking at what happened during the season than what the outcome is or is likely to be. That's fine. Personally my 45 win guess (just threw it out there) looks like I may have assessed this team fairly well. There was absolutely a concern from the beginning about depth. There was nobody behind Crawford and Bazz and that didn't change except Belly stepping into the SF spot and looking better than expected but...guys played a ton of minutes. Some people saw this season going like it did from the beginning.

The reality is after this season Thibs and Layden need to go about filling out this roster. Other organizations have been able to do it even if they were strapped for money. Look at what the Rockets were able to do. This team hopefully into the playoffs and take that step forward is hopefully a step towards being that team we have been envisioning for this franchise for years and every re-re-re-re-rebuild* I get the frustration but I'm just sharing where I am at. Honestly I'm some ways this season has gone better than I expected despite obviously reasons for having less optimism because of some poor play.

*Trademarked by Abe

[thedoper]

Jumping 15 or 16 wins is usually grounds for coach and/or GM of the year. The abused spouse syndrome has hit new highs.

[kekgeek]

I think the defensive atrociousness has to fall on Thibs at some point. We have players who can or should be able to play defense. Butler and Taj have both been good to great in the past. Wiggins and Towns have the physical ability to play defense. Then you have to also realize Thibs is the one who brought the players in/extended.

We can't change the players without taking a step back. Wiggins is going to be overpaid for what he has produced this season. KAT is a baller and exceptional talent on offense, obviously you have to build around him. But his defense has been lagging behind. Butler can and has played great defense so he's not "the problem."

You can't have a bottom 5 defense with payers who should perform better without having some kind of problem.

I expected the defense to be better. I think we all did.

When Andrew Wiggins is on the without Jamal Crawford what is 68% of possessions the wolves have a defensive rating of 106.0 what would put us at 15 in the NBA in defensive rating. When Jamal Crawford is with Andrew Wiggins what is 32% of the possessions the defensive rating balloons to 123.5 pts per 100 possessions what would be the worst team in the NBA by 13 pts per 100 possessions.

When KAT is on the court without Jamal Crawford what is 72% of possession the wolves have a def rating of 106.9 what would be 16th in the NBA. But when Jamal plays with KAT 28% of possessions the Wolves defense once again balloons to 117.1 once again would be the worst team in the NBA by 7 pts per possession.

When KAT and Wiggins are together in any lineup that does not have Crawford in it we have a def rating of 106.5 what would be the 15th rated team in the NBA but when you add Crawford into lineups that include KAT and Wiggins. The Wolves defensive sky rockets once again to 121.7. Almost 12 pts worse than the worst NBA team in the League and 15 pts worse in any other lineup those to play together without Crawford.

I think we all agree that our best two defenders are Taj and Jimmy Butler. The wolves Defensive rating when those 2 are on the court minus Jamal we have a def rating of 105.0 what would be the 11th best defense in the NBA. Now if we add crawford to those two the wolves defense is 112.9 once again the worst team in the NBA.

I know it is hard to blame one guy on the defensive struggles. But it doesn't matter the lineup we are a middle of the road defense when Crawford is not on the court but we are the worst team in the NBA in any lineup Crawford is on the court.

Now Towns and Wiggins have a ways to go defensively and they are not perfect but they are an average NBA defense in any other lineup that dosen't involve Crawford. Now if you want to blame Thibs for not finding another wing fine. But a huge part of the terrible defense goes on the shoulders of one player and that is Crawford

[kekgeek]

I also don't get how the season is a failure if we get the 8th seed. Vegas over/under was 46.5 so we would of hit the over. We had the 2nd biggest increase in wins of any team in the NBA. According to cleaning the glass.com the wolves based on net rating should have 1.6 more wins this season (luck factor). So if luck was on our side look at that we are the 4 seed and easily could have the 3 seed. If that was case nobody would be bitching at all. We could be 12 games over .500 for a team that has not made the playoffs in 14 years. We just had our first year over .500 in the non-KG era

[Wolvesfan21]

I think the defensive atrociousness has to fall on Thibs at some point. We have players who can or should be able to play defense. Butler and Taj have both been good to great in the past. Wiggins and Towns have the physical ability to play defense. Then you have to also realize Thibs is the one who brought the players in/extended.

We can't change the players without taking a step back. Wiggins is going to be overpaid for what he has produced this season. KAT is a baller and exceptional talent on offense, obviously you have to build around him. But his defense has been lagging behind. Butler can and has played great defense so he's not "the problem."

You can't have a bottom 5 defense with payers who should perform better without having some kind of problem.

I expected the defense to be better. I think we all did.

When Andrew Wiggins is on the without Jamal Crawford what is 68% of possessions the wolves have a defensive rating of 106.0 what would put us at 15 in the NBA in defensive rating. When Jamal Crawford is with Andrew Wiggins what is 32% of the possessions the defensive rating balloons to 123.5 pts per 100 possessions what would be the worst team in the NBA by 13 pts per 100 possessions.

When KAT is on the court without Jamal Crawford what is 72% of possession the wolves have a def rating of 106.9 what would be 16th in the NBA. But when Jamal plays with KAT 28% of possessions the Wolves defense once again balloons to 117.1 once again would be the worst team in the NBA by 7 pts per possession.

When KAT and Wiggins are together in any lineup that does not have Crawford in it we have a def rating of 106.5 what would be the 15th rated team in the NBA but when you add Crawford into lineups that include KAT and Wiggins. The Wolves defensive sky rockets once again to 121.7. Almost 12 pts worse than the worst NBA team in the League and 15 pts worse in any other lineup those to play together without Crawford.

I think we all agree that our best two defenders are Taj and Jimmy Butler. The wolves Defensive rating when those 2 are on the court minus Jamal we have a def rating of 105.0 what would be the 11th best defense in the NBA. Now if we add crawford to those two the wolves defense is 112.9 once again the worst team in the NBA.

I know it is hard to blame one guy on the defensive struggles. But it doesn't matter the lineup we are a middle of the road defense when Crawford is not on the court but we are the worst team in the NBA in any lineup Crawford is on the court.

Now Towns and Wiggins have a ways to go defensively and they are not perfect but they are an average NBA defense in any other lineup that dosen't involve Crawford. Now if you want to blame Thibs for not finding another wing fine. But a huge part of the terrible defense goes on the shoulders of one player and that is Crawford

Wasn't aware of those numbers but was aware Crawford was terrible. Thibs brought him in and played him, of course it comes down to Thibs. Or getting Crawford or other players on the roster to perform at a high enough level for an adequate defense.

MGH didn't play a lot but I always thought he might have been a better option then Crawford. I don't know how the stats read on it, just something I thought going back several weeks.

[longstrangetrip [enjin:6600564]]

I think the defensive atrociousness has to fall on Thibs at some point. We have players who can or should be able to play defense. Butler and Taj have both been good to great in the past. Wiggins and Towns have the physical ability to play defense. Then you have to also realize Thibs is the one who brought the players in/extended.

We can't change the players without taking a step back. Wiggins is going to be overpaid for what he has produced this season. KAT is a baller and exceptional talent on offense, obviously you have to build around him. But his defense has been lagging behind. Butler can and has played great defense so he's not "the problem."

You can't have a bottom 5 defense with payers who should perform better without having some kind of problem.

I expected the defense to be better. I think we all did.

When Andrew Wiggins is on the without Jamal Crawford what is 68% of possessions the wolves have a defensive rating of 106.0 what would put us at 15 in the NBA in defensive rating. When Jamal Crawford is with Andrew Wiggins what is 32% of the possessions the defensive rating balloons to 123.5 pts per 100 possessions what would be the worst team in the NBA by 13 pts per 100 possessions.

When KAT is on the court without Jamal Crawford what is 72% of possession the wolves have a def rating of 106.9 what would be 16th in the NBA. But when Jamal plays with KAT 28% of possessions the Wolves defense once again balloons to 117.1 once again would be the worst team in the NBA by 7 pts per possession.

When KAT and Wiggins are together in any lineup that does not have Crawford in it we have a def rating of 106.5 what would be the 15th rated team in the NBA but when you add Crawford into lineups that include KAT and Wiggins. The Wolves defensive sky rockets once again to 121.7. Almost 12 pts worse than the worst NBA team in the League and 15 pts worse in any other lineup those to play together without Crawford.

I think we all agree that our best two defenders are Taj and Jimmy Butler. The wolves Defensive rating when those 2 are on the court minus Jamal we have a def rating of 105.0 what would be the 11th best defense in the NBA. Now if we add crawford to those two the wolves defense is 112.9 once again the worst team in the NBA.

I know it is hard to blame one guy on the defensive struggles. But it doesn't matter the lineup we are a middle of the road defense when Crawford is not on the court but we are the worst team in the NBA in any lineup Crawford is on the court.

Now Towns and Wiggins have a ways to go defensively and they are not perfect but they are an average NBA defense in any other lineup that dosen't involve Crawford. Now if you want to blame Thibs for not finding another wing fine. But a huge part of the terrible defense goes on the shoulders of one player and that is Crawford

To paraphrase the late Denny Green, Jamal Crawford was what we thought he was. 17 seasons in the NBA were a large enough sample size to conclude that he was a terrible defender. I can't decide if I want to blame the POBO for signing him when better defensive options were available, or the coach for playing him almost 21 MPG.