Jamal Crawford opts out

[kekgeek]

All you need to know about how bad Jamal was this year, is look at Gorgui numbers. Gorgui had a terrible year this year and teams were scoring 7.3 pts more than the wolves when Gorgui was on the court this year in all of his lineups (18th percentile). If you take out the lineups that Gorgui played with Jamal, the Wolves were outscoring opponents by 8.7 pts per 100 possessions (92nd percentile). If you only put in lineups Gorgui played with Crawford wolves were being outscored by 12.8 pts per 100 possessions that is a 21 pt difference between how the wolves did when Gorgui played with Crawford and with out Crawford.

[longstrangetrip [enjin:6600564]]

He came here to help us make the playoffs and he did that. Time for him to go back to a contender and try to get a ring.

But thats exactly my frustration with this team now...we should be a contender. We have 2 former #1 picks, a consensus top 10 2-way player, a former Euroleague MVP in his prime years, and several other lottery picks. The fact that we staggered into an 8th seed and got blown out in the playoffs is a disgrace and a serious indictment of this coaching staff. I'm not a fan of Crawford the player (although he appears to be a terrific guy), but he's a veteran who clearly sees that this team isn't going anywhere until we get a coach who can both motivate and understands today's NBA. Jamal won a few games for us when he got hot, but he hurt us more than he helped and I'm not sorry to see him go.

That's woefully unfair.

Look... very few people (any?) love Thibs. Most have serious problems with him about one thing or another. But your list of assets is amusing to me.

At one point, the Wolves had three #1 draft picks. Shouldn't THAT team have been better? Not all lottery picks turn out the same. Not all former Euro guys pan out.

You have to judge these players for who they are NOW... not what they could have been based on their draft position. Especially when some of these guys were either drafted by another regime AND played for another regime. For example, one of those #1 draft picks has been here for 4 years without much improvement.

Another point... how do you know Crawford "clearly sees" that this team has a bad coach? That's BS. You have no idea. All we really know is that he wanted more minutes... that Thibs didn't want to give him. Allegedly. So if anything, wouldn't keeping Crawford more off the court than on it (even against the vet's wishes) show that Thibs actually... wait for it... made at least one halfway decent, not completely terrible coaching decision?

Maybe Crawford is delusional and thinks hes still deserves 28+ mpg per night...

Crawford is absolutely delusional. No one could miss that much and still think they're the best option to shoot. It has been the story all year that Crawford came here because he believed it was his greatest opportunity for ample playing time and was disappointed he wasn't getting it. Why assume there is anything more to the story than that? Simplest explanation is usually the best one.

Sure. Ok. Just didn't see how Thibs was even getting blamed for NOT giving in to the delusional Crawford.

But LST really really really really really really really really-x-infinity hates Thibs.

No. he seems like a decent guy. But yeah, I hate the way he coaches this team, and here's why. I'm fairly certain I'm the only board member who has been a season ticket holder since day 1. That's right...I was there in the metrodome on that glorious night in 1989 when Tony Campbell scored 38 to lead them to their first ever win. It's been an entertaining 38 years, and I have generally felt optimistic about the team...even in their futility. I've praised some coaches, criticized others. But I have never been so disappointed in a Wolves team as I am this year...not even close. And it all points to the coach, because even he called this "the best young roster in the NBA" two years ago, and that was before getting Butler and Gibson. Add Butler and two years of experience to "the best young roster", and I expect way more than a quick first round exit. If Thibs coached like other coaches in terms of rotations, 3-point philosophy (offensive and defensive), and demeanor, I would be more forgiving. But he is an extreme outlier...as national analysts and several of us here have pointed out...and he's too pig-headed to change even though it isn't working. Too young? Nope, look at Boston. Too many injuries? Nope, we were healthier this year than many teams above us. Not enough talent? Please.

Abe says you judge a player on who he is now, not who he was at the time of the draft, and there's some truth in that. But who a player is now has a lot to do with how he has been coached and developed, and that's largely on Thibs. Jaylen Brown isn't a better player than Andrew Wiggins because he is naturally more talented...he was considered not ready and somewhat of a wild card coming out of college. It's because he is lucky to play for a coach who makes his guys better.

Sure, I don't know that Crawford is leaving because he doesn't see this team going anywhere under Thibs, but I think it's the most likely reason.

[longstrangetrip [enjin:6600564]]

He came here to help us make the playoffs and he did that. Time for him to go back to a contender and try to get a ring.

But thats exactly my frustration with this team now...we should be a contender. We have 2 former #1 picks, a consensus top 10 2-way player, a former Euroleague MVP in his prime years, and several other lottery picks. The fact that we staggered into an 8th seed and got blown out in the playoffs is a disgrace and a serious indictment of this coaching staff. I'm not a fan of Crawford the player (although he appears to be a terrific guy), but he's a veteran who clearly sees that this team isn't going anywhere until we get a coach who can both motivate and understands today's NBA. Jamal won a few games for us when he got hot, but he hurt us more than he helped and I'm not sorry to see him go.

That's woefully unfair.

Look... very few people (any?) love Thibs. Most have serious problems with him about one thing or another. But your list of assets is amusing to me.

At one point, the Wolves had three #1 draft picks. Shouldn't THAT team have been better? Not all lottery picks turn out the same. Not all former Euro guys pan out.

You have to judge these players for who they are NOW... not what they could have been based on their draft position. Especially when some of these guys were either drafted by another regime AND played for another regime. For example, one of those #1 draft picks has been here for 4 years without much improvement.

Another point... how do you know Crawford "clearly sees" that this team has a bad coach? That's BS. You have no idea. All we really know is that he wanted more minutes... that Thibs didn't want to give him. Allegedly. So if anything, wouldn't keeping Crawford more off the court than on it (even against the vet's wishes) show that Thibs actually... wait for it... made at least one halfway decent, not completely terrible coaching decision?

Maybe Crawford is delusional and thinks hes still deserves 28+ mpg per night...

Crawford is absolutely delusional. No one could miss that much and still think they're the best option to shoot. It has been the story all year that Crawford came here because he believed it was his greatest opportunity for ample playing time and was disappointed he wasn't getting it. Why assume there is anything more to the story than that? Simplest explanation is usually the best one.

Sure. Ok. Just didn't see how Thibs was even getting blamed for NOT giving in to the delusional Crawford.

But LST really really really really really really really really-x-infinity hates Thibs.

Of Crawford top 7 lineups this year 6 of them were negative, Teams were 13.7 pts better against the wolves when Crawford was on the court (per 100 possessions) what was in the 4th percentile of the NBA. Wolves were giving up 10.1 pts more when Crawford was on the court than off what was in the 1st percentile.

Crawford was a good dude, about his stories about texting Patton every single day in the G League, to him the community doing the score book at a STMA summer girls basketball game. He is a good dude but he is a bad basketball player at this point in his career and if anything he should of been playing less. I am happy he is gone, and we should get better from just getting him off the court.

The team instantly is more enjoyable to watch.

I agree. Crawford turned out to be exactly what he has always been...a gunner who occasionally gets hot and wins a game for you, but who much more often makes a team less effective and watchable.

Why he played more minutes this year than Jones, one of our best +/- guys, I will never understand.

[Monster]

Whether Thins is holdinf the line on playing time with Crawford or Crawford probably figuring out he won't get anymore playing time just because it's obvious they want to add more wings (duh) he wants to go somewhere else. I think it's possible Thibs in a way gave Jamal some of the minutes and freedom he did because he was a vet and because of the other good things he did while not on the court. In addition except for Tyus it's not like there was someone that stepped up and played so well it made a ton of sense to not play Jamal.

Assuming he is gone (Jon K and Crawford's pal Wolfson both say he is) this gives the Wolves a nice opportunity.

1. Rose coming back while it doesn't fit great makes a way more sense with Crawford a different type of of the bench guard gunner gone. Rose doesn't help innthe area of 3 point shooting but he seems like a guy much more willing and able to actually create and pass to others Jamal would do it at times and was capable but way too much it was Crawford just jacking up shots. Rose at least attacked the rim and looked for guys both around the rim and especially guys that were in the corners. If he can actually get to the rim and score he might actually create opportunities for others while on the floor. He could fit the culture of a drive and kick team. Bringing back Rose is a gamble. To me Thins needs to convince him to come back for the vet min. Just ball out and stay here with me Jimmy Taj and this group we can do something special. Rose is getting paid Millions every year he plays basketball somewhere for a couple more years so he should be fine. The vet min for him is over 2 million so it's not chinmp change. What if he can stay relatively healthy and get back to some worthwhile percentage of what he was? Lots of ifs but for that money I think it could be worth it. For the vet min I would take the gamble hoping he gives this team something near wheat we saw this year in a wolves uniform. He could get injured and or suck but I think it's a gamble this team should make.

2. Or could open up opportunities with the other guards. Rose seemed to play better when teamed with Teague. Maybe that staggering of starters with Teague playing with the Bench and Tyus with the starters might make more sense than when it was the Crawford show. Rose with Tyus seems like it might work better also because Rose will actually pass the ball plus is a cutter who Tyus would actually find. It wouldn't hurt either that Rose seemed willing to pass to Belly (assuming he is back). Rose is more like when Dunn and Tyus used to play together and that seemed to work decently. I think it's a better fit than when Tyus played with Crawford. Tyus wasn't quite dynamic enough to just play PG with that 2nd unit but with Crawford being so high usuage he would just be wasted. Rose isn't some magical passing PG but he is probably a way better passer than a lot of bench guards you will find.

3. Other shooters/role players. They can sign some guys and there is a bigger hole and opportunity now that Crawfors is gone. They have more money to play with because Crawford is out of the picture. They may be more willing to spend some money on a guy like Belly now. A young player like MGH or a draft pick or some other signing could have a better chance at a role.

4. I truely think Thibs vision for this team is one that shares the offensive ability and allows and even encourages everyone to attack if they have a matchup. Crawford was too much of a guy that just got his. Having one less guy that almost completely ignored the other players to take shots (Bazz ingnored and was nearly incapable of making a play for someone else) could do wonders. A player like MGH who in theory has a diverse skill set could have a role. It could mean Tyus gets a chance to actually be more aggressive. Maybe they work Dieng into the offense on the 2nd unit so he actually doesn't look so damn lost out there. One thing he has always been is a good passer. He didn't have much of a consistent role in that way.

I like Jamal and I wouldn't have minded him opting in and staying but there are reasons why I am actually pretty happy he isn't coming back. I do think his presence helped this year. Did his play on the court also hurt? Yes. What was the ultimate value he brought to the team? Idkwe won't ever know and can't ultimately quantify it. I can absolutely see why some people are celebrating this news. I'm happy for them. :)

[AbeVigodaLive]

He came here to help us make the playoffs and he did that. Time for him to go back to a contender and try to get a ring.

But thats exactly my frustration with this team now...we should be a contender. We have 2 former #1 picks, a consensus top 10 2-way player, a former Euroleague MVP in his prime years, and several other lottery picks. The fact that we staggered into an 8th seed and got blown out in the playoffs is a disgrace and a serious indictment of this coaching staff. I'm not a fan of Crawford the player (although he appears to be a terrific guy), but he's a veteran who clearly sees that this team isn't going anywhere until we get a coach who can both motivate and understands today's NBA. Jamal won a few games for us when he got hot, but he hurt us more than he helped and I'm not sorry to see him go.

That's woefully unfair.

Look... very few people (any?) love Thibs. Most have serious problems with him about one thing or another. But your list of assets is amusing to me.

At one point, the Wolves had three #1 draft picks. Shouldn't THAT team have been better? Not all lottery picks turn out the same. Not all former Euro guys pan out.

You have to judge these players for who they are NOW... not what they could have been based on their draft position. Especially when some of these guys were either drafted by another regime AND played for another regime. For example, one of those #1 draft picks has been here for 4 years without much improvement.

Another point... how do you know Crawford "clearly sees" that this team has a bad coach? That's BS. You have no idea. All we really know is that he wanted more minutes... that Thibs didn't want to give him. Allegedly. So if anything, wouldn't keeping Crawford more off the court than on it (even against the vet's wishes) show that Thibs actually... wait for it... made at least one halfway decent, not completely terrible coaching decision?

Maybe Crawford is delusional and thinks hes still deserves 28+ mpg per night...

Crawford is absolutely delusional. No one could miss that much and still think they're the best option to shoot. It has been the story all year that Crawford came here because he believed it was his greatest opportunity for ample playing time and was disappointed he wasn't getting it. Why assume there is anything more to the story than that? Simplest explanation is usually the best one.

Sure. Ok. Just didn't see how Thibs was even getting blamed for NOT giving in to the delusional Crawford.

But LST really really really really really really really really-x-infinity hates Thibs.

Of Crawford top 7 lineups this year 6 of them were negative, Teams were 13.7 pts better against the wolves when Crawford was on the court (per 100 possessions) what was in the 4th percentile of the NBA. Wolves were giving up 10.1 pts more when Crawford was on the court than off what was in the 1st percentile.

Crawford was a good dude, about his stories about texting Patton every single day in the G League, to him the community doing the score book at a STMA summer girls basketball game. He is a good dude but he is a bad basketball player at this point in his career and if anything he should of been playing less. I am happy he is gone, and we should get better from just getting him off the court.

The team instantly is more enjoyable to watch.

I agree. Crawford turned out to be exactly what he has always been...a gunner who occasionally gets hot and wins a game for you, but who much more often makes a team less effective and watchable.

Why he played more minutes this year than Jones, one of our best +/- guys, I will never understand.

Both types of players have a place.

The turtle vs. the hare... so to speak. Or the caretaker vs. the Gunner. Jones' impact was going to be more subtle. Would it translate over more minutes across different lineups? Maybe? Would he be able to enter and game and change the outcome... or salvage a game like the late on vs. Dallas?

Crawford, for all his faults, could be sent out there with 4 G-League guys and he could get you buckets. As much as I hate those types of guys in theory (some of my least favorite Wolves have been McCants and Beasley), there's a place for them in the NBA. The problem was that Crawford is a certified vet. He's "earned" his minutes. So he was still getting those minutes when he was bad. That's how the NBA works for the most part.

[Q12543 [enjin:6621299]]

Yeah, playing Crawford minutes was probably the price Thibs had to pay in order to ensure he kept him happy and, in turn, yielded the benefits of him being a great presence in the locker room.

And to Abe's point, someone has to create shots and Crawford was often the only guy on the floor that could make plays. One unit we never saw was something like Tyus-MGH-Bjelly-Gorgui-Shabazz. Who in that lineup can really create shots for themselves and others off the dribble? What would their +/- have been?

That being said....the numbers really are overwhelmingly bad with Crawford in the lineup, so I'm not fixin' for a debate on Crawford's value. But there might be some nuance we haven't fully considered both on and off the court.

[kekgeek]

All you need to know about Jamal, he just tweeted this

Didn't see the Game, but from highlights seems like Bron did a lot of his work in the " midrange" Don't be fooled into believing it's all 3's or layups.

[Lipoli390]

He came here to help us make the playoffs and he did that. Time for him to go back to a contender and try to get a ring.

But thats exactly my frustration with this team now...we should be a contender. We have 2 former #1 picks, a consensus top 10 2-way player, a former Euroleague MVP in his prime years, and several other lottery picks. The fact that we staggered into an 8th seed and got blown out in the playoffs is a disgrace and a serious indictment of this coaching staff. I'm not a fan of Crawford the player (although he appears to be a terrific guy), but he's a veteran who clearly sees that this team isn't going anywhere until we get a coach who can both motivate and understands today's NBA. Jamal won a few games for us when he got hot, but he hurt us more than he helped and I'm not sorry to see him go.

That's woefully unfair.

Look... very few people (any?) love Thibs. Most have serious problems with him about one thing or another. But your list of assets is amusing to me.

At one point, the Wolves had three #1 draft picks. Shouldn't THAT team have been better? Not all lottery picks turn out the same. Not all former Euro guys pan out.

You have to judge these players for who they are NOW... not what they could have been based on their draft position. Especially when some of these guys were either drafted by another regime AND played for another regime. For example, one of those #1 draft picks has been here for 4 years without much improvement.

Another point... how do you know Crawford "clearly sees" that this team has a bad coach? That's BS. You have no idea. All we really know is that he wanted more minutes... that Thibs didn't want to give him. Allegedly. So if anything, wouldn't keeping Crawford more off the court than on it (even against the vet's wishes) show that Thibs actually... wait for it... made at least one halfway decent, not completely terrible coaching decision?

Maybe Crawford is delusional and thinks hes still deserves 28+ mpg per night...

Crawford is absolutely delusional. No one could miss that much and still think they're the best option to shoot. It has been the story all year that Crawford came here because he believed it was his greatest opportunity for ample playing time and was disappointed he wasn't getting it. Why assume there is anything more to the story than that? Simplest explanation is usually the best one.

Sure. Ok. Just didn't see how Thibs was even getting blamed for NOT giving in to the delusional Crawford.

But LST really really really really really really really really-x-infinity hates Thibs.

No. he seems like a decent guy. But yeah, I hate the way he coaches this team, and here's why. I'm fairly certain I'm the only board member who has been a season ticket holder since day 1. That's right...I was there in the metrodome on that glorious night in 1989 when Tony Campbell scored 38 to lead them to their first ever win. It's been an entertaining 38 years, and I have generally felt optimistic about the team...even in their futility. I've praised some coaches, criticized others. But I have never been so disappointed in a Wolves team as I am this year...not even close. And it all points to the coach, because even he called this "the best young roster in the NBA" two years ago, and that was before getting Butler and Gibson. Add Butler and two years of experience to "the best young roster", and I expect way more than a quick first round exit. If Thibs coached like other coaches in terms of rotations, 3-point philosophy (offensive and defensive), and demeanor, I would be more forgiving. But he is an extreme outlier...as national analysts and several of us here have pointed out...and he's too pig-headed to change even though it isn't working. Too young? Nope, look at Boston. Too many injuries? Nope, we were healthier this year than many teams above us. Not enough talent? Please.

Abe says you judge a player on who he is now, not who he was at the time of the draft, and there's some truth in that. But who a player is now has a lot to do with how he has been coached and developed, and that's largely on Thibs. Jaylen Brown isn't a better player than Andrew Wiggins because he is naturally more talented...he was considered not ready and somewhat of a wild card coming out of college. It's because he is lucky to play for a coach who makes his guys better.

Sure, I don't know that Crawford is leaving because he doesn't see this team going anywhere under Thibs, but I think it's the most likely reason.

Well said, LST. I haven't been a season ticket holder from the beginning, but I've been in the fold since 1997. I share your level of disappointment in the team this past season. I don't see Thibodeau as a terrible head coach in the mold of a Kurt Rambis. But I'm convinced he's not among the better head coaches in today's NBA for all the reasons you stated. And it's not just last season that convinces me. The previous season under Thibodeau was revealing. He coached this team, what he called the best young roster in the NBA, to essentially the same record it had the previous season under Sam Mitchell. It's even worse when you consider that these young players had a full season and another full offseason before Thibodeau took over the team. It's worse yet when you consider the strong finish the Wolves had down the stretch under Sam, including impressive wins against the Warriors and other top teams. Maybe Sam was a great head coach, but I don't think so and it doesn't look like any other organizations do as Sam continues his career as an analyst for NBA TV. Then we get a glimpse of what could be watching teams that advanced like the Celtics, Sixers, Warriors, Rockets, and Jazz. We see them defend while we also see how they move the ball on the offensive end (players rarely taking more than a few dribbles), and shoot threes without hesitation.

No one can say definitively whether Thibodeau is a good or bad head coach; that's matter of opinion with arguments on both sides. I think he's mediocre as both head coach and PBO. But if we want to be an elite team, we at least need a very good head coach as well as an excellent PBO. Mediocre isn't good enough if this organization is serious about being a championship contender. Fans should expect more. As a long-time season ticket holder who has sunk a ton of money into this organization, I'm frustrated by what I see in Thibodeau. What I see is a guy who in both of his roles (head coach and PBO) is failing to take optimal advantage of the players and assets that made him want those two positions Glen Taylor gave him. I truly hope I'm wrong because I'm a Wolves fan and I know Thibodeau isn't going anywhere soon. But if I'm right, whether Jamaal Crawford stays or goes doesn't really matter.

[Shumway]

Well said, LST. I haven't been a season ticket holder from the beginning, but I've been in the fold since 1997. I share your level of disappointment in the team this past season. I don't see Thibodeau as a terrible head coach in the mold of a Kurt Rambis. But I'm convinced he's not among the better head coaches in today's NBA for all the reasons you stated. And it's not just last season that convinces me. The previous season under Thibodeau was revealing. He coached this team, what he called the best young roster in the NBA, to essentially the same record it had the previous season under Sam Mitchell. It's even worse when you consider that these young players had a full season and another full offseason before Thibodeau took over the team. It's worse yet when you consider the strong finish the Wolves had down the stretch under Sam, including impressive wins against the Warriors and other top teams. Maybe Sam was a great head coach, but I don't think so and it doesn't look like any other organizations do as Sam continues his career as an analyst for NBA TV. Then we get a glimpse of what could be watching teams that advanced like the Celtics, Sixers, Warriors, Rockets, and Jazz. We see them defend while we also see how they move the ball on the offensive end (players rarely taking more than a few dribbles), and shoot threes without hesitation.

No one can say definitively whether Thibodeau is a good or bad head coach; that's matter of opinion with arguments on both sides. I think he's mediocre as both head coach and PBO. But if we want to be an elite team, we at least need a very good head coach as well as an excellent PBO. Mediocre isn't good enough if this organization is serious about being a championship contender. Fans should expect more. As a long-time season ticket holder who has sunk a ton of money into this organization, I'm frustrated by what I see in Thibodeau. What I see is a guy who in both of his roles (head coach and PBO) is failing to take optimal advantage of the players and assets that made him want those two positions Glen Taylor gave him. I truly hope I'm wrong because I'm a Wolves fan and I know Thibodeau isn't going anywhere soon. But if I'm right, whether Jamaal Crawford stays or goes doesn't really matter.

I think this is a really good post. Lip, generally I think you are a little too negative towards Thibs and see the negatives more than the positives. Generally I'm sure that I'm a little too optimistic about things. But I think you've summed things up really well. Coming from over a decade in the wilderness, it was nice to see improvement into a genuine playoff team (and my optimism tells me that maybe a couple more years of development will have us where we want to be). But there's an element of ruthlessness in becoming great. As a slight Thibs supporter, I've often found the criticism of Thibs a bit too much. A tendency to focus on all the flaws without acknowledging the positives. But I've bolded what is probably a really important point that I may have missed. To become elite, we can't be arguing about whether Thibs is OK rather than bad. We do need a coach who is also a strong net positive. I think you've articulated that really well with that post.

[Shumway]

. I'm fairly certain I'm the only board member who has been a season ticket holder since day 1. That's right...I was there in the metrodome on that glorious night in 1989 when Tony Campbell scored 38 to lead them to their first ever win.

And this right here... this is an outstanding quote. That is really cool. It's what's great about this board - a collection of really genuine Wolves supporters.

EDIT: Whoops, I tried to just cut part of the previous quotes and it seems to have attributed LSTs section to Abe. Sorry.