Damning Stats

[longstrangetrip [enjin:6600564]]

I'm not quite sure how anyone that actually watched the game last night, or much of the season, can attribute that loss to Thibs. We look good when the players execute the gameplan -- Thib's gameplan -- but absolutely kill themselves when they start doing their own thing, such as panic mode three-pointers and one-pass offense followed by lackadaisical defensive awareness. I especially thought Towns was hard to watch against Toronto. Said it in a different thread, or maybe this one, that he seems to be caring more about the "look at me" plays instead of the essential plays that win games. He's been super frustrating along with Wiggins and Rubio this year.

I don't disagree about last night, Cam...I thought Thibs had a good game. Relatively quiet on the sidelines (having no voice helped), well-timed time outs and appropriate substitutions...he gave the reserves more rope than usual, and I think that's good. We don't know if the inevitable 4th quarter collapse is on Thibs or not, but they certainly seemed to have tired legs at the end of the game. We also don't know if Thibs deserves any responsibility for the obvious regression of KAT and Ricky...the Thibs detractors think he might, the supporters put the blame entirely on the players. I guess we don't know, but it does lead to a lively discussion.

[longstrangetrip [enjin:6600564]]

I'm not quite sure how anyone that actually watched the game last night, or much of the season, can attribute that loss to Thibs. We look good when the players execute the gameplan -- Thib's gameplan -- but absolutely kill themselves when they start doing their own thing, such as panic mode three-pointers and one-pass offense followed by lackadaisical defensive awareness. I especially thought Towns was hard to watch against Toronto. Said it in a different thread, or maybe this one, that he seems to be caring more about the "look at me" plays instead of the essential plays that win games. He's been super frustrating along with Wiggins and Rubio this year.

Cam, I think it's always guesswork in how to assign blame in a situation involving so many variables and interdependencies. But at the end of the day, when you have the exact same 5-player unit taking a 15 point swing in net rating from one season to the next, you have to look at the coach, right? We all know these guys worked their asses off over the summer and everyone is healthy too. So what the hell gives?

As the late Dark Star (sorry Cam...local reference) would say..."Well, there's thaaaat".

[Q12543 [enjin:6621299]]

Update Net Rating by Player:

Jones - +6.6
Bjelica - +5.3
Aldrich - +5.2
Muhammad - +3.9
Dunn - +.8
Dieng - -3.8
Wiggins - -3.9
LaVine - -4.4
KAT - -5.1
Rubio - -8.9

Simplistic conclusion: Rubio is killing us on offense and our "big three" are killing us on defense.

Hmm...tell me more about this Jones fellow. Sounds like he might be pretty good...maybe he can help us once he gets off the DL.

Seriously, does Thibs have access to this data, or is it a secret? Most impressive about Jones' plus/minus is that it hasn't come at garbage time. Circumstances have dictated that Thibs has turned to Tyus mostly in critical situations...often the second half of close games, where we have generally collapsed this season. For God's sake, play the kid a little more, Thibs...and trust your reserves. They know how to play defense, and it's reflected in their terrific numbers.

LST, I think Thibs is bound and determined to get his main group of 9 guys to turn things around. You would think the stability of a 9-man rotation with fairly predictable minutes distribution would help this squad. Nope. Well, it has helped the bench I think. But the starters continue to collapse like a house of cards the second adversity strikes. At what point does he have to throw up his hands and scrap Plan A?

[Coolbreeze44]

This is highly entertaining reading this morning. The one constant is there isn't much middle ground. LOL

[longstrangetrip [enjin:6600564]]

Update Net Rating by Player:

Jones - +6.6
Bjelica - +5.3
Aldrich - +5.2
Muhammad - +3.9
Dunn - +.8
Dieng - -3.8
Wiggins - -3.9
LaVine - -4.4
KAT - -5.1
Rubio - -8.9

Simplistic conclusion: Rubio is killing us on offense and our "big three" are killing us on defense.

Hmm...tell me more about this Jones fellow. Sounds like he might be pretty good...maybe he can help us once he gets off the DL.

Seriously, does Thibs have access to this data, or is it a secret? Most impressive about Jones' plus/minus is that it hasn't come at garbage time. Circumstances have dictated that Thibs has turned to Tyus mostly in critical situations...often the second half of close games, where we have generally collapsed this season. For God's sake, play the kid a little more, Thibs...and trust your reserves. They know how to play defense, and it's reflected in their terrific numbers.

LST, I think Thibs is bound and determined to get his main group of 9 guys to turn things around. You would think the stability of a 9-man rotation with fairly predictable minutes distribution would help this squad. Nope. Well, it has helped the bench I think. But the starters continue to collapse like a house of cards the second adversity strikes. At what point does he have to throw up his hands and scrap Plan A?

That's the big question, Q...what are the boundaries of Thibs' stubbornness? I haven't met him, but friends of mine that have say he is a terrific guy and really talks the game well. But I also sense that his coaching success in Chicago left him with an inflated impression of his coaching acumen, and perhaps a belief that "one size fits all". This roster is different than the Bulls' roster, and if the first 1/4 of the season has shown us nothing else, requires a different coaching style. My homer optimism can border on the absurd at times, I admit, so I'm still hopeful that Thibs is smart and flexible enough to make necessary adjustments to his philosophy. But if not, I'm afraid we're looking at an 18-win season.

[longstrangetrip [enjin:6600564]]

DeMar DeRozen has an interesting quote in the paper which tends to support what Lip and I have observed about the negative impact on the team of Thibs' constant sideline bellowing (DeMar played for Thibs in the Olympics):

" You definitely know that voice. You heard it the whole game. You've got to be prepared to hear it, but you have to let it pass you".

What is he saying here? It sounds like he is describing Thibs as something the players have to overcome, have to learn to ignore. Maybe the veteran Bulls were better at not letting Thibs get to them, and hence were more successful under him.

But I have several questions. How does Taylor react to a quote like this...does he talk with Thibs and tell him to relax a bit? Do we want a coach that players have to learn to ignore when they're on the court? If you were a coach and you read this from one of your former players, how would you react?

I suspect Thibs will ignore it or laugh it off, but maybe, just maybe, he takes it to heart and changes!

[Camden [enjin:6601484]]

You didn't post the entire quote, LST. I could see your angle based on that snippet, though. Fortunately, DeRozan actually said a bit more than that. Here's what he said, according to the Star Tribune:

TORONTO - While he tries to make the Wolves a "48-minute team," coach Tom Thibodeau remains a 48-minute coach.

Toronto guard DeMar DeRozan's ears tell him so.

"You hear his raspy voice," DeRozan said before Thursday's game. "He was loud. He'll probably be a lot louder tonight. You definitely know that voice. You heard it the whole game. You've got to be prepared to hear it, but you have to let it pass you."

DeRozan said he admired Thibodeau's guidance, as well.

"It's great when you have a head coach [as an assistant] like that," DeRozan said. "He's not going to let one single detail slide. You know that when you're going against Thibs, you definitely have to bring your 'A' game."

...

Players that know Thibodeau, players that have played under his tutelage in some capacity -- there are numerous quotes where he's being talked about as a great coach, and just a handful that are questionable. The narrative that players can't stand the guy as a coach is one based on one's own opinion, not actual evidence.

[longstrangetrip [enjin:6600564]]

You didn't post the entire quote, LST. I could see your angle based on that snippet, though. Fortunately, DeRozan actually said a bit more than that. Here's what he said, according to the Star Tribune:

TORONTO - While he tries to make the Wolves a "48-minute team," coach Tom Thibodeau remains a 48-minute coach.

Toronto guard DeMar DeRozan's ears tell him so.

"You hear his raspy voice," DeRozan said before Thursday's game. "He was loud. He'll probably be a lot louder tonight. You definitely know that voice. You heard it the whole game. You've got to be prepared to hear it, but you have to let it pass you."

DeRozan said he admired Thibodeau's guidance, as well.

"It's great when you have a head coach [as an assistant] like that," DeRozan said. "He's not going to let one single detail slide. You know that when you're going against Thibs, you definitely have to bring your 'A' game."

...

Players that know Thibodeau, players that have played under his tutelage in some capacity -- there are numerous quotes where he's being talked about as a great coach, and just a handful that are questionable. The narrative that players can't stand the guy as a coach is one based on one's own opinion, not actual evidence.

Cam, I didn't include the rest of the quote because it was the typical clichéd pablum players say about coaches...the smart thing to do publicly is to praise a coach, because you never know if you might end up playing for him. Similarly, I'm not going to include a positive comment that a Wolves player makes about another struggling Wolves' player because it's clichéd "nice" talk and not meaningful. I thought "You have to let (that voice) pass you" would be more interesting and revealing to the community here than "DeRozen said he admired Thibs guidance, as well" We read platitudes like that in the paper every day about every coach, but the other quote was eye opening.

But negative public comments are so unusual that they are inherently interesting and newsworthy...that's why I posted that comment, because it was interesting and telling.

[Brooklyn_Wolves [enjin:14608167]]

Only one guy in the starting 5 improved so far: LaVine. The rest either regressed or fell off the cliff.

[Camden [enjin:6601484]]

LST, I believe the "you have to let (that voice) pass you" remark was for himself, an opposing player. That's how it came off to me. Makes a lot more sense that an opposing player would need to tune out Thibodeau's bellowing. Do you really think DeRozan's going to insist that players of any coach should tune out or ignore their own head coach regardless of how loud they are? That's not what he was talking about.