What happened to Pork and Duke?

[Brooklyn_Wolves [enjin:14608167]]

We lost a lot of close games because in last 2 minutes Wiggins was trying play some funny two man game with Towns near the 3pt line and very often it resulted in a TO out of bounds or break away layup/dunk for the opponents. It was elementary schools stuff really but Thibs wanted to see if it can work in the future. After a while he probably got tired of losing and scrapped it.

[Q12543 [enjin:6621299]]

Khans, I call your disagreement and raise it by one!

If Ricky's scoring is "the key", then how come we we've pretty much been ranked #10 offensively throughout the entire season, including his early struggles? Or how about our 9th rated offense in 2013-14 when Ricky averaged a whopping 9.5 points per game?

Yes, he needs to be a threat to score when totally ignored - we agree there. No, he doesn't need to go out and get 15 or 20 PPG for our offense to be effective. The proof is in the numbers.

Now if you want to talk about winning games, that pretty much starts and ends with the defense. It's been our #1 problem for the past umpteen years.

EDIT: It looks like Monster beat me to the punch on the reason for our turnaround.

And how did we close out 4th quarters during these offensive stretches you mention? Oh...we got torched because we were playing 4 on 5 offensively and couldn't stop anybody. JJ Barea got the nod over Ricky and JJ was terrible to close out games. The fact is we were offensively great for 3 quarters and then when teams actually buckled down on us we struggled greatly because our primary ball handler couldn't have the ball in his hands to close out the game. Anybody who's watched this team can verify this team struggled closing out games so your top 10 offense stat is hollow and inflated by great 1st half stats that didn't carry over to when the game mattered. The proof is in the numbers. We win more than we lose we he plays like he is now and we lose more than we win when he plays the way you describe. That's not a coincidence or due solely to the defense. It's easier to defend an opponent when they pull the ball out of their bucket than when they can get out in transition 2 out of every 3 Ricky shots because he misses.

Khans, How much has Rubio been taking 4th quarter shots in this latest good run? He is still deferring to KAT and Wiggins to close out games - as he should - so I don't see how that has changed much. What has changed is that we are getting stops. You have vastly underrated the importance of defense here.

Also, Ricky has proven that he can make big shots in close games when left open. Usually the reason we have lost close games (in the past and present) is because we don't get stops. I honestly can't think of many instances where Ricky choked away a late game for us with bricked shots, poor spacing, or bad defense.

Jayson Kidd, Mario Chalmers, Derek Fisher....These guys have rings all over their fingers and each averaged less than 10 PPG as their team's starting PG in title runs. It CAN be done!

[Brooklyn_Wolves [enjin:14608167]]

This play basically descries our early season crunch time offense that turns into "defense" real quick

http://stats.nba.com/events/#!/?flag=1&GameID=0021600450&GameEventID=444&Season=2016-17&title=LaVine%20Bad%20Pass%20Turnover%20(P2.T13)&sct=plot


http://stats.nba.com/events/#!/?flag=1&GameID=0021600205&GameEventID=487&Season=2016-17&title=Towns%20Bad%20Pass%20Turnover%20(P1.T15)&sct=plot

[khans2k5 [enjin:6608728]]

Khans, I call your disagreement and raise it by one!

If Ricky's scoring is "the key", then how come we we've pretty much been ranked #10 offensively throughout the entire season, including his early struggles? Or how about our 9th rated offense in 2013-14 when Ricky averaged a whopping 9.5 points per game?

Yes, he needs to be a threat to score when totally ignored - we agree there. No, he doesn't need to go out and get 15 or 20 PPG for our offense to be effective. The proof is in the numbers.

Now if you want to talk about winning games, that pretty much starts and ends with the defense. It's been our #1 problem for the past umpteen years.

EDIT: It looks like Monster beat me to the punch on the reason for our turnaround.

And how did we close out 4th quarters during these offensive stretches you mention? Oh...we got torched because we were playing 4 on 5 offensively and couldn't stop anybody. JJ Barea got the nod over Ricky and JJ was terrible to close out games. The fact is we were offensively great for 3 quarters and then when teams actually buckled down on us we struggled greatly because our primary ball handler couldn't have the ball in his hands to close out the game. Anybody who's watched this team can verify this team struggled closing out games so your top 10 offense stat is hollow and inflated by great 1st half stats that didn't carry over to when the game mattered. The proof is in the numbers. We win more than we lose we he plays like he is now and we lose more than we win when he plays the way you describe. That's not a coincidence or due solely to the defense. It's easier to defend an opponent when they pull the ball out of their bucket than when they can get out in transition 2 out of every 3 Ricky shots because he misses.

Khans, How much has Rubio been taking 4th quarter shots in this latest good run? He is still deferring to KAT and Wiggins to close out games - as he should - so I don't see how that has changed much. What has changed is that we are getting stops. You have vastly underrated the importance of defense here.

Also, Ricky has proven that he can make big shots in close games when left open. Usually the reason we have lost close games (in the past and present) is because we don't get stops. I honestly can't think of many instances where Ricky choked away a late game for us with bricked shots, poor spacing, or bad defense.

Jayson Kidd, Mario Chalmers, Derek Fisher....These guys have rings all over their fingers and each averaged less than 10 PPG as their team's starting PG in title runs. It CAN be done!

I didn't realize we already had Dirk, Kobe or Lebron on our team. Last I checked Towns is still struggling to close out games and Wiggins legs are leaving him because of the minutes and defensive responsibilities. Also 3 examples is not a strong sample size. Kyrie, Steph and Tony Parker are the last 3 in a row to win it to counter your 3 and mine are more recent based on the style of play of the NBA. Also there is a major difference in comparing Ricky to 2 of your 3 examples in Chalmers and Fisher and that's that they were not the primary ball handlers on their team as Ricky is on ours. Basically you can't bitch that we put him in a corner to start the year when he played bad blaming it on the coach and then when he plays a certain way to get us winning say he can just go right back to that guy in the corner to close out games.

[Mstermisty [enjin:6864008]]

I've made it a point to stay out of the endless Ricky discussions because it just grows tiring. But I'll sum up my thoughts here, then go back to staying out of it:

His entire career Ricky has been a plus player on the court, and has never had much to work with around him. I've never understood how people have always pointed to him as being "the problem." The best team he had was Love, healthy Pek, K-Mart and Brewer. And that team had no bench. They played nearly .500 ball, which was about expected. This season was the first time I actually saw Rubio as a negative. In fact, it seemed like trading him was not only the right move but the inevitable one. Those saying Ricky was a problem were absolutely right because he was. Not only was he shooting worse than ever but his assists were way down, and his defense was shaky along with everybody elses.

The last couple months Ricky simply got back to his old self--double digit assists every game with solid defense. But also something amazing has transpired, he has actually looked to score. I think all the detractors and backers would agree that he never had the mind set to try to score which was a big problem. For whatever reason, Thibs, the threat of being traded, etc., has made him find a new gear.

That said, Ricky's scoring isn't the reason we are 7-3, it's team defense. All we have done during this stretch is trade Wiggin's points for Ricky's. For this team to thrive, we need to get back to Wiggins getting his 25 and Ricky getting his 10, while doing the other things he normally does well.

This is my optimal, yet realistic Ricky going forward: 11-12 ppg, 40%+ shooting, 33%+ from the 3 point line (over 30% at worst), and 10+ assists. I think optimal, realistic Ricky can lead the league in assists next year. He doesn't need to be a scoring point guard, but he does have to look to score when its there, which lately he's been doing. But at the end of the day it will all come down to winning. They may have finally hit on a winning formula, and Zach isn't even back in the fold. It looks like Ricky is the right guy to drive the bus, and at a very reasonable price for the next two years at least.

One final thought and then I'm out on this beaten to death subject: I have to admit part of my bias towards Ricky is the fact that he is the ultimate teammate and seemingly just an overall solid, loyal human being. I've never heard a bad word spoken about him, he never takes a play off, and he stays professional even when a parent is dying or he's being shopped for a bag of chips. Winning is everything in pro sports, and at the end of the day that's what I care about too, but maybe in this day and age "character" isn't appreciated enough. Rubio has more character in his little pinky than D-Rose and Reggie Jackson have combined. That should mean something when it comes to building a contending team. Who knows, maybe at the end of the day that's why Thibs didn't trade him. Anyway, I'm glad we still have him, and hopefully he can keep up his improved play.

[Carlos Danger]

I fall into the "Q side" of this never ending debate. This year's Ricky is pretty much the same player he's always been. Look at his current per game stats: He's going to get you 10 points, 9 assists, and 4 rebounds. That's this year and for his career. Same goes for Advanced stats: He's a 16 PER this year and for his career. Granted his TS% is up so far this year....but the year isn't over. And (based on history) I'd expect Rubio to fall back to his career norm in that area with a longer sample. There is a strong probability that this is just a hot streak, just like he had a stretch of poor play to start the year. It all evens out over time to his career averages. There is enough data at this point to pretty conclusively know what we have in Rubio.

At the end of the day there are plenty of stats both sides can use to make their points of whether they think Rubio helps or hurts a team. Personally, I like Ricky and believe he adds value. That said, I'm certainly not opposed to upgrading the PG or any other spot. But until they find someone - this is what we got. Look at what Dunn has shown up to this point. It might be harder to find an upgrade than some people think. Actually, that gives me an idea for another thread....

[Q12543 [enjin:6621299]]

Khans, I call your disagreement and raise it by one!

If Ricky's scoring is "the key", then how come we we've pretty much been ranked #10 offensively throughout the entire season, including his early struggles? Or how about our 9th rated offense in 2013-14 when Ricky averaged a whopping 9.5 points per game?

Yes, he needs to be a threat to score when totally ignored - we agree there. No, he doesn't need to go out and get 15 or 20 PPG for our offense to be effective. The proof is in the numbers.

Now if you want to talk about winning games, that pretty much starts and ends with the defense. It's been our #1 problem for the past umpteen years.

EDIT: It looks like Monster beat me to the punch on the reason for our turnaround.

And how did we close out 4th quarters during these offensive stretches you mention? Oh...we got torched because we were playing 4 on 5 offensively and couldn't stop anybody. JJ Barea got the nod over Ricky and JJ was terrible to close out games. The fact is we were offensively great for 3 quarters and then when teams actually buckled down on us we struggled greatly because our primary ball handler couldn't have the ball in his hands to close out the game. Anybody who's watched this team can verify this team struggled closing out games so your top 10 offense stat is hollow and inflated by great 1st half stats that didn't carry over to when the game mattered. The proof is in the numbers. We win more than we lose we he plays like he is now and we lose more than we win when he plays the way you describe. That's not a coincidence or due solely to the defense. It's easier to defend an opponent when they pull the ball out of their bucket than when they can get out in transition 2 out of every 3 Ricky shots because he misses.

Khans, How much has Rubio been taking 4th quarter shots in this latest good run? He is still deferring to KAT and Wiggins to close out games - as he should - so I don't see how that has changed much. What has changed is that we are getting stops. You have vastly underrated the importance of defense here.

Also, Ricky has proven that he can make big shots in close games when left open. Usually the reason we have lost close games (in the past and present) is because we don't get stops. I honestly can't think of many instances where Ricky choked away a late game for us with bricked shots, poor spacing, or bad defense.

Jayson Kidd, Mario Chalmers, Derek Fisher....These guys have rings all over their fingers and each averaged less than 10 PPG as their team's starting PG in title runs. It CAN be done!

I didn't realize we already had Dirk, Kobe or Lebron on our team. Last I checked Towns is still struggling to close out games and Wiggins legs are leaving him because of the minutes and defensive responsibilities. Also 3 examples is not a strong sample size. Kyrie, Steph and Tony Parker are the last 3 in a row to win it to counter your 3 and mine are more recent based on the style of play of the NBA. Also there is a major difference in comparing Ricky to 2 of your 3 examples in Chalmers and Fisher and that's that they were not the primary ball handlers on their team as Ricky is on ours. Basically you can't bitch that we put him in a corner to start the year when he played bad blaming it on the coach and then when he plays a certain way to get us winning say he can just go right back to that guy in the corner to close out games.

Why not? If Wiggins has a great matchup and is on his game, I see no problem with isolating him at the top of the key and putting Rubio in the corner to end a game. It doesn't have to be black and white. I'd love nothing more than having multiple options to close out games, including isolating Wiggins or having him run PnR with KAT. It doesn't have to be all or nothing.

Bah, we'll never agree on this.....

[Q12543 [enjin:6621299]]

I've made it a point to stay out of the endless Ricky discussions because it just grows tiring. But I'll sum up my thoughts here, then go back to staying out of it:

His entire career Ricky has been a plus player on the court, and has never had much to work with around him. I've never understood how people have always pointed to him as being "the problem." The best team he had was Love, healthy Pek, K-Mart and Brewer. And that team had no bench. They played nearly .500 ball, which was about expected. This season was the first time I actually saw Rubio as a negative. In fact, it seemed like trading him was not only the right move but the inevitable one. Those saying Ricky was a problem were absolutely right because he was. Not only was he shooting worse than ever but his assists were way down, and his defense was shaky along with everybody elses.

The last couple months Ricky simply got back to his old self--double digit assists every game with solid defense. But also something amazing has transpired, he has actually looked to score. I think all the detractors and backers would agree that he never had the mind set to try to score which was a big problem. For whatever reason, Thibs, the threat of being traded, etc., has made him find a new gear.

That said, Ricky's scoring isn't the reason we are 7-3, it's team defense. All we have done during this stretch is trade Wiggin's points for Ricky's. For this team to thrive, we need to get back to Wiggins getting his 25 and Ricky getting his 10, while doing the other things he normally does well.

This is my optimal, yet realistic Ricky going forward: 11-12 ppg, 40%+ shooting, 33%+ from the 3 point line (over 30% at worst), and 10+ assists. I think optimal, realistic Ricky can lead the league in assists next year. He doesn't need to be a scoring point guard, but he does have to look to score when its there, which lately he's been doing. But at the end of the day it will all come down to winning. They may have finally hit on a winning formula, and Zach isn't even back in the fold. It looks like Ricky is the right guy to drive the bus, and at a very reasonable price for the next two years at least.

One final thought and then I'm out on this beaten to death subject: I have to admit part of my bias towards Ricky is the fact that he is the ultimate teammate and seemingly just an overall solid, loyal human being. I've never heard a bad word spoken about him, he never takes a play off, and he stays professional even when a parent is dying or he's being shopped for a bag of chips. Winning is everything in pro sports, and at the end of the day that's what I care about too, but maybe in this day and age "character" isn't appreciated enough. Rubio has more character in his little pinky than D-Rose and Reggie Jackson have combined. That should mean something when it comes to building a contending team. Who knows, maybe at the end of the day that's why Thibs didn't trade him. Anyway, I'm glad we still have him, and hopefully he can keep up his improved play.

Very well said Mstermisty. Our foundation has been built on the premise of a generational big man in KAT and two dynamic wings in Wiggins and (hopefully) LaVine. Rubio needs to be solid, not spectacular. And, IMO, he's been a solid starting PG and a true professional his entire career.