Q12543 wrote:Let's just call Andrew tall and long enough to play either wing position and leave it at that. The real issue for him physically isn't length, but bulk. He can be overpowered by bigger wings. As a 2, this is less likely to happen. I'm also not sure how much more weight his frame can hold. He's got more of an old-school wiry strength versus the type of bulked up look we see from so many players these days (see my reference to Gallinari earlier).
This is why I think he is better as a 2. He can totally dominate both sides of the ball as a 2. As a 3 he is effective but can get out muscled by bulkier 3s.
This is the argument that I don't get. The difference between Wiggins at the 2 and 3 just isn't that big. There are top level players at both spots the can bully him and win that matchup. He can be effective at both spots. So does it not make sense then to think of who his wing partner is to determine where he should play? Shouldn't the best of Lavine/Bazz/Martin/Prince be determined and then Wiggins plays wherever he needs to based on that? It doesn't make sense to try to get a small edge for Wiggins if it means a bigger drop off for the spot next to him because you're restricting who he plays with. I.e. it doesn't make sense to start Wiggins against McCullom for the Blazers because Zach can win that matchup and Aminu isn't a big enough threat offensively to warrant Prince needing to guard him over Wiggins and Prince is a big drop off offensively from Zach. Where Wiggins plays should be determined by our other wings and their capabilities against opposing lineups more than whether or not Wiggins can play slightly better. Wiggins is interchangeable. We should be focusing on how we can win the other wing matchup and not pigeon hole ourselves for a small benefit.
I can't think of any 2s that win that matchup from a physically dominant perspective. Can you name one? I also think that overall Bazz at the 3 and Wiggins at the 2 offers more matchup issues. But overall you are right, if a team is starting a small 2 throw Lavine out there for long stretches. But that is usually the exception to the rule. Either way minutes are going to be a problem to really get a good look at these lineups as long as Martin is getting run.
Harden, Thompson, Derozan, Butler, Matthews, Wade. There's 6 who can and some have bullied Wiggins at times.
See I disagree that those guys "bully" him. They score on him, but they score on anyone. Those 6 would humiliate Lavine which is why Wiggins ends up guarding them anyway.
How is that any different than what Wiggins does to smaller 2's? Wiggins isn't bullying anyone. He's using his size advantage to get to the rim easier and posting up easier without getting knocked out of position or losing the ball. That's what those guys I posted do to Wiggins with their strength advantage. How is that any different when he guards Melo or Lebron or Durant, etc.? Sure those guys score on Lavine, but if the game is managed correctly Lavine could make them chase him all over the court to wear them down and limit their effectiveness that way. Whereas if Prince is in there, those guys get breaks on defense whenever they need it and can make Wiggins' life more difficult trying to stop them. There's more than one way limit a good player. Sometimes wearing them out and weathering the storm is better than just doing your best to stop them all together.
Q12543 wrote:Let's just call Andrew tall and long enough to play either wing position and leave it at that. The real issue for him physically isn't length, but bulk. He can be overpowered by bigger wings. As a 2, this is less likely to happen. I'm also not sure how much more weight his frame can hold. He's got more of an old-school wiry strength versus the type of bulked up look we see from so many players these days (see my reference to Gallinari earlier).
This is why I think he is better as a 2. He can totally dominate both sides of the ball as a 2. As a 3 he is effective but can get out muscled by bulkier 3s.
This is the argument that I don't get. The difference between Wiggins at the 2 and 3 just isn't that big. There are top level players at both spots the can bully him and win that matchup. He can be effective at both spots. So does it not make sense then to think of who his wing partner is to determine where he should play? Shouldn't the best of Lavine/Bazz/Martin/Prince be determined and then Wiggins plays wherever he needs to based on that? It doesn't make sense to try to get a small edge for Wiggins if it means a bigger drop off for the spot next to him because you're restricting who he plays with. I.e. it doesn't make sense to start Wiggins against McCullom for the Blazers because Zach can win that matchup and Aminu isn't a big enough threat offensively to warrant Prince needing to guard him over Wiggins and Prince is a big drop off offensively from Zach. Where Wiggins plays should be determined by our other wings and their capabilities against opposing lineups more than whether or not Wiggins can play slightly better. Wiggins is interchangeable. We should be focusing on how we can win the other wing matchup and not pigeon hole ourselves for a small benefit.
I can't think of any 2s that win that matchup from a physically dominant perspective. Can you name one? I also think that overall Bazz at the 3 and Wiggins at the 2 offers more matchup issues. But overall you are right, if a team is starting a small 2 throw Lavine out there for long stretches. But that is usually the exception to the rule. Either way minutes are going to be a problem to really get a good look at these lineups as long as Martin is getting run.
Harden, Thompson, Derozan, Butler, Matthews, Wade. There's 6 who can and some have bullied Wiggins at times.
See I disagree that those guys "bully" him. They score on him, but they score on anyone. Those 6 would humiliate Lavine which is why Wiggins ends up guarding them anyway.
How is that any different than what Wiggins does to smaller 2's? Wiggins isn't bullying anyone. He's using his size advantage to get to the rim easier and posting up easier without getting knocked out of position or losing the ball. That's what those guys I posted do to Wiggins with their strength advantage. How is that any different when he guards Melo or Lebron or Durant, etc.? Sure those guys score on Lavine, but if the game is managed correctly Lavine could make them chase him all over the court to wear them down and limit their effectiveness that way. Whereas if Prince is in there, those guys get breaks on defense whenever they need it and can make Wiggins' life more difficult trying to stop them. There's more than one way limit a good player. Sometimes wearing them out and weathering the storm is better than just doing your best to stop them all together.
Nov 5 2015 Wiggins- -12pts on 5-18 shooting - Wade 25pts on 11-19 shooting - great game for wade
Nov 7 2015 Wiggins - 31 pts, 3rbs and a block - Butler 11 pts 4-15 from the field
Nov 17th Wiggins - 24 pts 3 rbs 3 steals and a block - Wade 10 pts 5-13 from the field
So once Wade got the better of Wiggins. Twice he bullied these guards who you say have the advantage. I just don't see your point at all. In fact I am even more convinced now that Wiggins is more dominant at the 2. I guess we'll see if these guards have the imaginary dominance you seem to think they do when we play Dallas and Toronto.
Q12543 wrote:Let's just call Andrew tall and long enough to play either wing position and leave it at that. The real issue for him physically isn't length, but bulk. He can be overpowered by bigger wings. As a 2, this is less likely to happen. I'm also not sure how much more weight his frame can hold. He's got more of an old-school wiry strength versus the type of bulked up look we see from so many players these days (see my reference to Gallinari earlier).
This is why I think he is better as a 2. He can totally dominate both sides of the ball as a 2. As a 3 he is effective but can get out muscled by bulkier 3s.
This is the argument that I don't get. The difference between Wiggins at the 2 and 3 just isn't that big. There are top level players at both spots the can bully him and win that matchup. He can be effective at both spots. So does it not make sense then to think of who his wing partner is to determine where he should play? Shouldn't the best of Lavine/Bazz/Martin/Prince be determined and then Wiggins plays wherever he needs to based on that? It doesn't make sense to try to get a small edge for Wiggins if it means a bigger drop off for the spot next to him because you're restricting who he plays with. I.e. it doesn't make sense to start Wiggins against McCullom for the Blazers because Zach can win that matchup and Aminu isn't a big enough threat offensively to warrant Prince needing to guard him over Wiggins and Prince is a big drop off offensively from Zach. Where Wiggins plays should be determined by our other wings and their capabilities against opposing lineups more than whether or not Wiggins can play slightly better. Wiggins is interchangeable. We should be focusing on how we can win the other wing matchup and not pigeon hole ourselves for a small benefit.
I can't think of any 2s that win that matchup from a physically dominant perspective. Can you name one? I also think that overall Bazz at the 3 and Wiggins at the 2 offers more matchup issues. But overall you are right, if a team is starting a small 2 throw Lavine out there for long stretches. But that is usually the exception to the rule. Either way minutes are going to be a problem to really get a good look at these lineups as long as Martin is getting run.
Harden, Thompson, Derozan, Butler, Matthews, Wade. There's 6 who can and some have bullied Wiggins at times.
See I disagree that those guys "bully" him. They score on him, but they score on anyone. Those 6 would humiliate Lavine which is why Wiggins ends up guarding them anyway.
How is that any different than what Wiggins does to smaller 2's? Wiggins isn't bullying anyone. He's using his size advantage to get to the rim easier and posting up easier without getting knocked out of position or losing the ball. That's what those guys I posted do to Wiggins with their strength advantage. How is that any different when he guards Melo or Lebron or Durant, etc.? Sure those guys score on Lavine, but if the game is managed correctly Lavine could make them chase him all over the court to wear them down and limit their effectiveness that way. Whereas if Prince is in there, those guys get breaks on defense whenever they need it and can make Wiggins' life more difficult trying to stop them. There's more than one way limit a good player. Sometimes wearing them out and weathering the storm is better than just doing your best to stop them all together.
Nov 5 2015 Wiggins- -12pts on 5-18 shooting - Wade 25pts on 11-19 shooting - great game for wade
Nov 7 2015 Wiggins - 31 pts, 3rbs and a block - Butler 11 pts 4-15 from the field
Nov 17th Wiggins - 24 pts 3 rbs 3 steals and a block - Wade 10 pts 5-13 from the field
So once Wade got the better of Wiggins. Twice he bullied these guards who you say have the advantage. I just don't see your point at all. In fact I am even more convinced now that Wiggins is more dominant at the 2. I guess we'll see if these guards have the imaginary dominance you seem to think they do when we play Dallas and Toronto.
We both know Wiggins isn't playing these games 100% at the 2 against these guys. He's been playing the 3 about half the time so what were his stats in those games against Deng, Snell and Barnes/Iggy?
