Mixed Feelings

[kekgeek]

The disappointment is that we're going for broke just to make the playoffs when it seems like this team passed up opportunities to do this in order to "build it right." In a way it feels like Thibs threw in the towel in terms of winning a title and has lowered the bar to just being a playoff team and knows we'll take it because we've been out of the postseason for so long. However, we wasted 13 years for this?

I have the same feeling, Wild. This just doesn't feel like an organization building a championship team. What Thibs is doing has an air of desperation or at least impatience to it. But who knows. Maybe this all comes together in the next two years and the Wolves become a top 3 team in the West - two sprained ankles (Curry & Durant) from the Western Conference title. :)

Besides butler trade how did they "ruin the future". Every strategy has pros and cons. Look at the jazz built a team with young players in Gobert, Hayward, Favors and now if they lose Hayward all that patience turned into a 1 year playoffs and a sweep in the playoffs.

We still have 2 former 1# overall picks who are on their rookie contracts. Just like before the offseason we are going no where until those guys become top tier players.

We added a young player in Patton (sucks he broke his foot). But point still stands we need to still draft good to continue to have success now and into the future.

The disappointment is that we're going for broke just to make the playoffs when it seems like this team passed up opportunities to do this in order to "build it right." In a way it feels like Thibs threw in the towel in terms of winning a title and has lowered the bar to just being a playoff team and knows we'll take it because we've been out of the postseason for so long. However, we wasted 13 years for this?

I have the same feeling, Wild. This just doesn't feel like an organization building a championship team. What Thibs is doing has an air of desperation or at least impatience to it. But who knows. Maybe this all comes together in the next two years and the Wolves become a top 3 team in the West - two sprained ankles (Curry & Durant) from the Western Conference title. :)

Besides butler trade how did they "ruin the future". Every strategy has pros and cons. Look at the jazz built a team with young players in Gobert, Hayward, Favors and now if they lose Hayward all that patience turned into a 1 year playoffs and a sweep in the playoffs.

We still have 2 former 1# overall picks who are on their rookie contracts. Just like before the offseason we are going no where until those guys become top tier players.

We added a young player in Patton (sucks he broke his foot). But point still stands we need to still draft good to continue to have success now and into the future.

kekgeek1- last year's Jazz season would have been the 2nd best season in franchise history for us.

And you're right. We might not go anywhere until Wiggins and Towns take that leap. Me personally, I'm not sure Wiggins makes that leap. I really didn't like what I saw from him a year ago.

I agree wiggins might never make that leap but having ricky on this team wouldn't have made us a championship contender any more than teague would in the next 3 years. Same with Taj. You can disagree with who we spent our money on but we didn't have the cap space to add another franchise changing player.

In the end it comes down to Wiggins and towns. One needs to become a top 10 player the other needs to become a top 25 player and if that dosen't happen it won't matter what the rest of the roster is.

[Shumway]

The disappointment is that we're going for broke just to make the playoffs when it seems like this team passed up opportunities to do this in order to "build it right." In a way it feels like Thibs threw in the towel in terms of winning a title and has lowered the bar to just being a playoff team and knows we'll take it because we've been out of the postseason for so long. However, we wasted 13 years for this?

I have the same feeling, Wild. This just doesn't feel like an organization building a championship team. What Thibs is doing has an air of desperation or at least impatience to it. But who knows. Maybe this all comes together in the next two years and the Wolves become a top 3 team in the West - two sprained ankles (Curry & Durant) from the Western Conference title. :)

Rather than suggesting Thibs shows an air of desperation or impatience, I think you could just as easily describe Thibs' approach as being patient and then decisive and strong. He took a year to evaluate and has then moved aggressively to make moves required to win a championship. He has upgraded the premium quality around our young potential, then made a slight upgrade at the PG position, then added a veteran who embodies grit and intangibles, all without compromising long term flexibility with overly long onerous contracts. That could easily match how we'd describe building a championship contender.

I love your insights Lip, but I do suspect many of your opinions on Thibs' moves are based on a pre-conceived concerns about Thibs. I'm not completely in love with everything Thibs has done (I will miss Ricky and not sure the dollars to Gibson are ideal), but just painting a Devil's Advocate side of things for you. For what it's worth, my biggest concern on Thibs is not based on his POBO moves, but his coaching strategy to play his core guys excessive minutes - but that's a different topic.

[Shumway]

Imagine how different things would be if Flip had drafted McCollum or, in the alternative, had drafted Giannis instead of Bazz and taken Rudy Gobert at #26 instead of selling the pick. Or. How about just taking Gobert instead of selling the pick. Coaches are fond of saying "it's the little things...". But the same goes for the front office. It's the little things like selling first round picks for cash or never drafting the diamond in the rough while other organizations (the good ones) hit on one every once in a while.

And so I sit here today wondering what would have happened if Thibs had drafted Hield instead of Dunn. And I wonder whether Thibs pushed to get the Bulls 2nd round pick (#38) as part of the Butler deal. Given that the Bulls simply sold that pick for cash, they obviously didn't put much value on it. So I have to believe that Thibs could have held out for it and gotten it even if we had to pony up $3 million to get it, which is a rounding error in the Wolves budget. Those are the little things. Pushing for that extra little value in a deal. I would have used that pick to take Jordan Bell. Time will tell whether that would have panned out. But that's not the point. It's about giving your franchise as many opportunities as possible.

I'm not proclaiming Thibs or Flip a failure. I'm simply pointing out the obvious. It's one thing to hit on the big things like taking Town with the #1 pick just as the Spurs took Duncan #1. But its a whole series of little things over time that distinguish mediocre franchises from the really good ones. Note that the Spurs went on to draft Parker with the 2nd to last pick in the 1st round and Manu with the last pick in the 2nd round. How about the Warriors drafting Klay Thompson in the teens and the Grizzlies taking Westbrook at #4 when no one thought he would go anywhere close to that high. In contrast, we sell our #26 pick for cash when we could have taken a flyer on a fluid athletic player with a 9'7" overhead reach who was very young and playing at a high level in Europe.

I know the point you're making, and we haven't missed the playoffs since before the Cretaceous by being a good organisation. But there's a lot of hindsight bias calls for Giannis or Gobert. And then there's a million sliding doors moments to consider. If we'd been just a little better the following year, we may have Okafor with the 3rd pick instead of Towns with the first.

The outrageous opTIMist in me still hopes that in 5 years, other franchises are talking about how we managed to pick Lavine in the teens and then flip him for a top 15 player as examples of home run moves that good organisations make from time to time.

[WildWolf2813]

The disappointment is that we're going for broke just to make the playoffs when it seems like this team passed up opportunities to do this in order to "build it right." In a way it feels like Thibs threw in the towel in terms of winning a title and has lowered the bar to just being a playoff team and knows we'll take it because we've been out of the postseason for so long. However, we wasted 13 years for this?

I have the same feeling, Wild. This just doesn't feel like an organization building a championship team. What Thibs is doing has an air of desperation or at least impatience to it. But who knows. Maybe this all comes together in the next two years and the Wolves become a top 3 team in the West - two sprained ankles (Curry & Durant) from the Western Conference title. :)

Rather than suggesting Thibs shows an air of desperation or impatience, I think you could just as easily describe Thibs' approach as being patient and then decisive and strong. He took a year to evaluate and has then moved aggressively to make moves required to win a championship. He has upgraded the premium quality around our young potential, then made a slight upgrade at the PG position, then added a veteran who embodies grit and intangibles, all without compromising long term flexibility with overly long onerous contracts. That could easily match how we'd describe building a championship contender.

I love your insights Lip, but I do suspect many of your opinions on Thibs' moves are based on a pre-conceived concerns about Thibs. I'm not completely in love with everything Thibs has done (I will miss Ricky and not sure the dollars to Gibson are ideal), but just painting a Devil's Advocate side of things for you. For what it's worth, my biggest concern on Thibs is not based on his POBO moves, but his coaching strategy to play his core guys excessive minutes - but that's a different topic.

What did Thibs need to evaluate about Jordan Hill and Brandon Rush? Long story short, if Thibs evaluated the team he came to the conclusion that he hated everyone minus Towns, Wiggins and Dieng. I woulda felt a lot better had he been able to add another young guy on the cheap that coulda helped up moving forward. Now he's gonna have to find 5 of them. It's beyond a Thibs problem. This has been one of the most inexplicable flaws this organization has had. Teams with championship cores still seek the best young talent they can find while we go after the Haywards and Onuakus and Chris Johnsons and Greg Smiths and Mickael Gelabales of the world. Even in this draft, teams go out and sign the best of the rest while we're about to trot out yet another garbage summer league team with guys that at best get to be cut early in training camp.

[Shumway]

The disappointment is that we're going for broke just to make the playoffs when it seems like this team passed up opportunities to do this in order to "build it right." In a way it feels like Thibs threw in the towel in terms of winning a title and has lowered the bar to just being a playoff team and knows we'll take it because we've been out of the postseason for so long. However, we wasted 13 years for this?

I have the same feeling, Wild. This just doesn't feel like an organization building a championship team. What Thibs is doing has an air of desperation or at least impatience to it. But who knows. Maybe this all comes together in the next two years and the Wolves become a top 3 team in the West - two sprained ankles (Curry & Durant) from the Western Conference title. :)

Rather than suggesting Thibs shows an air of desperation or impatience, I think you could just as easily describe Thibs' approach as being patient and then decisive and strong. He took a year to evaluate and has then moved aggressively to make moves required to win a championship. He has upgraded the premium quality around our young potential, then made a slight upgrade at the PG position, then added a veteran who embodies grit and intangibles, all without compromising long term flexibility with overly long onerous contracts. That could easily match how we'd describe building a championship contender.

I love your insights Lip, but I do suspect many of your opinions on Thibs' moves are based on a pre-conceived concerns about Thibs. I'm not completely in love with everything Thibs has done (I will miss Ricky and not sure the dollars to Gibson are ideal), but just painting a Devil's Advocate side of things for you. For what it's worth, my biggest concern on Thibs is not based on his POBO moves, but his coaching strategy to play his core guys excessive minutes - but that's a different topic.

What did Thibs need to evaluate about Jordan Hill and Brandon Rush? Long story short, if Thibs evaluated the team he came to the conclusion that he hated everyone minus Towns, Wiggins and Dieng. I woulda felt a lot better had he been able to add another young guy on the cheap that coulda helped up moving forward. Now he's gonna have to find 5 of them. It's beyond a Thibs problem. This has been one of the most inexplicable flaws this organization has had. Teams with championship cores still seek the best young talent they can find while we go after the Haywards and Onuakus and Chris Johnsons and Greg Smiths and Mickael Gelabales of the world. Even in this draft, teams go out and sign the best of the rest while we're about to trot out yet another garbage summer league team with guys that at best get to be cut early in training camp.

C'mon Wild. Surely it's a little disingenuous to take a comment that Thibs took a patient approach to evaluate his roster for a year to mean that Thibs needed to evaluate Hill and Rush.

It's also a very long leap of logic to suggest that trading Lavine and Dunn to get Butler implies that he hated them. I guess it does imply that he hated them slightly more than he hates Butler.

I completely agree that the Wolves have not found and developed cheap young guys in the past. We've been terrible for a long time. But I'm not sure that should have a significant bearing on our judgements on Thibs' moves this offseason (or last). I don't pretend that Thib's has accumulated a lot of higher upside young guys, but I don't think that needed to be his main focus this offseason given where the roster is at.

[Lipoli390]

The disappointment is that we're going for broke just to make the playoffs when it seems like this team passed up opportunities to do this in order to "build it right." In a way it feels like Thibs threw in the towel in terms of winning a title and has lowered the bar to just being a playoff team and knows we'll take it because we've been out of the postseason for so long. However, we wasted 13 years for this?

I have the same feeling, Wild. This just doesn't feel like an organization building a championship team. What Thibs is doing has an air of desperation or at least impatience to it. But who knows. Maybe this all comes together in the next two years and the Wolves become a top 3 team in the West - two sprained ankles (Curry & Durant) from the Western Conference title. :)

Rather than suggesting Thibs shows an air of desperation or impatience, I think you could just as easily describe Thibs' approach as being patient and then decisive and strong. He took a year to evaluate and has then moved aggressively to make moves required to win a championship. He has upgraded the premium quality around our young potential, then made a slight upgrade at the PG position, then added a veteran who embodies grit and intangibles, all without compromising long term flexibility with overly long onerous contracts. That could easily match how we'd describe building a championship contender.

I love your insights Lip, but I do suspect many of your opinions on Thibs' moves are based on a pre-conceived concerns about Thibs. I'm not completely in love with everything Thibs has done (I will miss Ricky and not sure the dollars to Gibson are ideal), but just painting a Devil's Advocate side of things for you. For what it's worth, my biggest concern on Thibs is not based on his POBO moves, but his coaching strategy to play his core guys excessive minutes - but that's a different topic.

Good points, Shumway. I see both sides, but I see Thibs taking an unduly short-term approach this summer after coming here a year ago to coach what he called "the best young roster in the NBA." I'm OK with the Butler trade, although I don't think I would have made that deal. I guess we disagree on whether Teague is a slight upgrade over Ricky. I think it's a wash at best. The Taj signing simply seems way too expensive given our cap situation, our disturbingly thin bench, and the other alternatives out there to add depth to the PF and/or center positions. Reasonable people can disagree without being accused of falling prey to preconceived concerns. I share your concern about Thibs as a head coach, but it goes beyond excessive minutes to core players. It relates to a rigidity that prevents him from adapting to his players. And I think that latter shortcoming bleeds over into his conduct as PBO as we see him bring in two guys he's coached before in his glory days -- players who match up perfectly with Thibs' style -- and in my view grossly overpays for one of them.

That's just my opinion. I wasn't happy we hired Thibs and even worse in my view that he was given both roles -- hence no checks and balances on a very bull-headed guy.

Having said all that, I think I've been clear that I'm not hating what Thibs has done this summer. The Butler trade is generally regarded by basketball experts as the right thing to do and I've embraced it. Teague could be a slight upgrade over Ricky as you suggested and Taj is a very solid player. But we have a very weak bench and no cap room left to add essential pieces to the rotation -- hence we're apparently resorting to pursuing guys like Swaggy P and probably going to give away the 1st round pick we got in the Rubio deal for our plan C SF named CJ Miles.

So it's a mixed bag for me. But winning will ingnite my enthusiasm.

[Lipoli390]

Imagine how different things would be if Flip had drafted McCollum or, in the alternative, had drafted Giannis instead of Bazz and taken Rudy Gobert at #26 instead of selling the pick. Or. How about just taking Gobert instead of selling the pick. Coaches are fond of saying "it's the little things...". But the same goes for the front office. It's the little things like selling first round picks for cash or never drafting the diamond in the rough while other organizations (the good ones) hit on one every once in a while.

And so I sit here today wondering what would have happened if Thibs had drafted Hield instead of Dunn. And I wonder whether Thibs pushed to get the Bulls 2nd round pick (#38) as part of the Butler deal. Given that the Bulls simply sold that pick for cash, they obviously didn't put much value on it. So I have to believe that Thibs could have held out for it and gotten it even if we had to pony up $3 million to get it, which is a rounding error in the Wolves budget. Those are the little things. Pushing for that extra little value in a deal. I would have used that pick to take Jordan Bell. Time will tell whether that would have panned out. But that's not the point. It's about giving your franchise as many opportunities as possible.

I'm not proclaiming Thibs or Flip a failure. I'm simply pointing out the obvious. It's one thing to hit on the big things like taking Town with the #1 pick just as the Spurs took Duncan #1. But its a whole series of little things over time that distinguish mediocre franchises from the really good ones. Note that the Spurs went on to draft Parker with the 2nd to last pick in the 1st round and Manu with the last pick in the 2nd round. How about the Warriors drafting Klay Thompson in the teens and the Grizzlies taking Westbrook at #4 when no one thought he would go anywhere close to that high. In contrast, we sell our #26 pick for cash when we could have taken a flyer on a fluid athletic player with a 9'7" overhead reach who was very young and playing at a high level in Europe.

I know the point you're making, and we haven't missed the playoffs since before the Cretaceous by being a good organisation. But there's a lot of hindsight bias calls for Giannis or Gobert. And then there's a million sliding doors moments to consider. If we'd been just a little better the following year, we may have Okafor with the 3rd pick instead of Towns with the first.

The outrageous opTIMist in me still hopes that in 5 years, other franchises are talking about how we managed to pick Lavine in the teens and then flip him for a top 15 player as examples of home run moves that good organisations make from time to time.

I wanted to address your hindsight point, Shumway.

First of all, we're all ultimately judged by hindsight in our work. We're judged on whether we achieved successful outcomes as a result of the decisions we made along the way. We judge the Spurs a success and, although they've made mistakes, we see a series of individual decisions (drafting Parker and Manu, trading Hill in draft day swap then drafting Leonard, etc.) that have clearly created that success. Hindsight isn't some form of bias, it's an essential tool we use to evaluate performance.

Second, I'm not relying on hindsight in the specific instances I'm referring to. Everyone who's been part of this Board and its predecessor on ESPN knows I advocated for drafting McCollum, that I didn't like the trade down and that I was livid about selling our #26 pick. I'm also pretty sure I posted something at the time about wanting to use that pick on Gobert and that I viewed Gobert as my Plan B if we didn't get Gorgui. When Flip did the deal I thought we at least had a shot at getting both. My friends remember me talking up Gobert. That shouldn't be surprising given Gobert's 9'7 overhead reach and my obsession over that measure. :). I also remember saying at the time that I'd take a shot at Giannis over Bazz because I saw us beginning a rebuild. So it wasn't hindsight with me. The point isn't that I had it right and Flip had it wrong. The point is that an NBA front office should be able to do as well AND BETTER than a rube like me.

I don't mean to dump on Flip. He made some great moves and showed more patience than I would have shown in holding out for the chance to get Wiggins in exchange of Love. He drafted the guy I wanted that year in LaVine. I loved Gorgui and he drafted him the previous year. He made the right decision drafting Towns at #1. He re-signed Ricky. His only two what I would really bad decisions were selling the #26 pick and trading a first round pick for Payne. Overall, Flip was a huge upgrade over what we had before him and he got this franchise back on track. It's so sad that he didn't get to finish his work. I think he had a great feel for the type of team we needed to become and he was assembling the right pieces.

[Shumway]

Imagine how different things would be if Flip had drafted McCollum or, in the alternative, had drafted Giannis instead of Bazz and taken Rudy Gobert at #26 instead of selling the pick. Or. How about just taking Gobert instead of selling the pick. Coaches are fond of saying "it's the little things...". But the same goes for the front office. It's the little things like selling first round picks for cash or never drafting the diamond in the rough while other organizations (the good ones) hit on one every once in a while.

And so I sit here today wondering what would have happened if Thibs had drafted Hield instead of Dunn. And I wonder whether Thibs pushed to get the Bulls 2nd round pick (#38) as part of the Butler deal. Given that the Bulls simply sold that pick for cash, they obviously didn't put much value on it. So I have to believe that Thibs could have held out for it and gotten it even if we had to pony up $3 million to get it, which is a rounding error in the Wolves budget. Those are the little things. Pushing for that extra little value in a deal. I would have used that pick to take Jordan Bell. Time will tell whether that would have panned out. But that's not the point. It's about giving your franchise as many opportunities as possible.

I'm not proclaiming Thibs or Flip a failure. I'm simply pointing out the obvious. It's one thing to hit on the big things like taking Town with the #1 pick just as the Spurs took Duncan #1. But its a whole series of little things over time that distinguish mediocre franchises from the really good ones. Note that the Spurs went on to draft Parker with the 2nd to last pick in the 1st round and Manu with the last pick in the 2nd round. How about the Warriors drafting Klay Thompson in the teens and the Grizzlies taking Westbrook at #4 when no one thought he would go anywhere close to that high. In contrast, we sell our #26 pick for cash when we could have taken a flyer on a fluid athletic player with a 9'7" overhead reach who was very young and playing at a high level in Europe.

I know the point you're making, and we haven't missed the playoffs since before the Cretaceous by being a good organisation. But there's a lot of hindsight bias calls for Giannis or Gobert. And then there's a million sliding doors moments to consider. If we'd been just a little better the following year, we may have Okafor with the 3rd pick instead of Towns with the first.

The outrageous opTIMist in me still hopes that in 5 years, other franchises are talking about how we managed to pick Lavine in the teens and then flip him for a top 15 player as examples of home run moves that good organisations make from time to time.

I wanted to address your hindsight point, Shumway.

First of all, we're all ultimately judged by hindsight in our work. We're judged on whether we achieved successful outcomes as a result of the decisions we made along the way. We judge the Spurs a success and, although they've made mistakes, we see a series of individual decisions (drafting Parker and Manu, trading Hill in draft day swap then drafting Leonard, etc.) that have clearly created that success. Hindsight isn't some form of bias, it's an essential tool we use to evaluate performance.

Second, I'm not relying on hindsight in the specific instances I'm referring to. Everyone who's been part of this Board and its predecessor on ESPN knows I advocated for drafting McCollum, that I didn't like the trade down and that I was livid about selling our #26 pick. I'm also pretty sure I posted something at the time about wanting to use that pick on Gobert and that I viewed Gobert as my Plan B if we didn't get Gorgui. When Flip did the deal I thought we at least had a shot at getting both. My friends remember me talking up Gobert. That shouldn't be surprising given Gobert's 9'7 overhead reach and my obsession over that measure. :). I also remember saying at the time that I'd take a shot at Giannis over Bazz because I saw us beginning a rebuild. So it wasn't hindsight with me. The point isn't that I had it right and Flip had it wrong. The point is that an NBA front office should be able to do as well AND BETTER than a rube like me.

I don't mean to dump on Flip. He made some great moves and showed more patience than I would have shown in holding out for the chance to get Wiggins in exchange of Love. He drafted the guy I wanted that year in LaVine. I loved Gorgui and he drafted him the previous year. He made the right decision drafting Towns at #1. He re-signed Ricky. His only two what I would really bad decisions were selling the #26 pick and trading a first round pick for Payne. Overall, Flip was a huge upgrade over what we had before him and he got this franchise back on track. It's so sad that he didn't get to finish his work. I think he had a great feel for the type of team we needed to become and he was assembling the right pieces.

I know you were big on McCollum pre-draft, so I deliberately excluded him from my comment about hindsight. I don't specifically recall the Gobert or Antetokounmpo commentary, so I'll take your word for it. My recollection was that it was a Gobert or Dieng type argument and that Dieng was preferred and that Antetokounmpo was not really in the conversation as he was so raw and was such a risk.

You're right that we're all ultimately judged with hindsight bias. But I'm not sure that's the best way to actually consider information. I'll share some details about myself to perhaps provide a bit of extra context around some of my commentary. I work in Finance and have a particular interest in Behavioural Finance. So I really enjoy studying decision making processes and how we analyse information. I've spent a lot of years studying this intricately and I still find it absolutely astounding how our minds work and some of the systematic errors and shortcuts we all make in our thought processes. Our instincts are extraordinarily strong and often very flawed and we'll all be susceptible to them. Hindsight bias is one of those cognitive biases.

So I believe that much more important than the outcome of a decision is whether the process for making that decision had merit. Taking a risk on McCollum with concerns about foot injuries can lead to great results in McCollum - but the same process can lead you to take Oden. Taking a risk on a raw prospect like Antetokounmpo can be a home run, it can deliver a player like Zach Lavine, or it can have us taking Ndudi Ebi.

There's still so much luck and uncertainty in decisions made in complex situations. So my hindsight point is really not a criticism. Just an observation about something that I am intimately familiar with and an attempt to provide a counter-point to your thinking.

[SameOldNudityDrew]

Some good thoughts on this thread, thanks for getting that started Shumway.

There are some things I would have done differently this offseason, mainly driven by my thinking that we need to be ahead of the curve as the league evolves into an even more perimeter-oriented league with lot of switching on D:

[list]
[*] trying to get a long, versatile forward with range in the draft like Wilson or Bolden
[*] targeting a long 3 and D wing in free agency instead of Gibson
[/list]

But on the whole, I'm pretty happy, mostly because we added Butler. We finally made the step to get a star to go with Towns, and it just happens that he's one of my favorite players, he plays exactly like Wiggins needs to learn how to play, and he meshes perfectly with our coach. So I'm excited to see what this team can do!

The Rubio-Teague switch is a logical one, as much as I hate to see Rubio go. Teague's dribble penetration and outside shooting fit much more what we need and could be small improvements that help open up the offense in big ways. And while Rubio is a much better off the ball defender, I like Teague's ability to stay in front of smaller, quicker guards on the ball, which was a problem for Ricky. I also think this may weirdly help out our defense, even though overall, Rubio was a better defender.

On the hindsight issue, I'm more forgiving. We all like to think that if we were in charge, we'd make the right decisions, but there's so much luck and chance in this game I think we need to stay humble about second-guessing decisions here or there.

I DO think you can hold front offices accountable for systematic failure though. What Phil was doing in New York was inexcusable, alienating his players and fans alike and refusing to come to grips with reality. Or when a front office is delusional about when it's clear their team needs to rebuild, they need to be able to set pride aside, bite the bullet and do it. Atlanta has now lost two huge free agents and got nothing to show for it, and just look at the mess the Nets got themselves into a few years ago. Or on the flip side, waiting too long with young prospects and passing up opportunities to cash in those assets for a star. It looked until the Hayward signing last night that this might be happening in Boston, but it turns out they've been counting on this decision all along. I don't see any of these things happening with Thibs, so I can't fault him significantly for any systematic failure.

I DO think this offseason has made clear that Thibs doesn't necessarily share my priorities with more perimeter shooting and switchability on D. But he has his vision, one that clearly involves a hard-nosed, defensive-minded team, and he's assembled a roster that fits that with good veterans plus two rising stars. I disagree with his priorities and vision somewhat, but I can't really knock him for doing a pretty decent job building a team that will match the vision he's got. I'm looking forward to the season and ready to roll!

[Shumway]

Good points, Shumway. I see both sides, but I see Thibs taking an unduly short-term approach this summer after coming here a year ago to coach what he called "the best young roster in the NBA." I'm OK with the Butler trade, although I don't think I would have made that deal. I guess we disagree on whether Teague is a slight upgrade over Ricky. I think it's a wash at best. The Taj signing simply seems way too expensive given our cap situation, our disturbingly thin bench, and the other alternatives out there to add depth to the PF and/or center positions. Reasonable people can disagree without being accused of falling prey to preconceived concerns. I share your concern about Thibs as a head coach, but it goes beyond excessive minutes to core players. It relates to a rigidity that prevents him from adapting to his players. And I think that latter shortcoming bleeds over into his conduct as PBO as we see him bring in two guys he's coached before in his glory days -- players who match up perfectly with Thibs' style -- and in my view grossly overpays for one of them.

That's just my opinion. I wasn't happy we hired Thibs and I even worse in my view that he was given both roles -- hence no checks and balances on a very bull-headed guy.

Having said all that, I think I've been clear that I'm not hating what Thibs has done this summer. The Butler trade is generally regarded by basketball experts as the right thing to do and I've embraced it. Teague could be a slight upgrade over Ricky as you suggested and Taj is a very solid player. But we have a very weak bench and no cap room left to add essential pieces to the rotation -- hence we're apparently resorting to pursuing guys like Swaggy Pete and probably going to give away the 1st round pick we got in the Rubio deal for our plan C SF named CJ Miles.

So it's a mixed bag for me. But winning will ingnite my enthusiasm.

In line with my post above, having preconceived concerns is not intended as an accusation of anything at all negative. We'll all have them. And our own preconceptions will undoubtedly be much stronger than we're prepared to admit to ourselves. I love the discussion on this board. In many cases, I'm probably offering an overly optimistic view as a counter-point to some of the caution about Thibs' moves. This is the offseason after all. We're Wolves fans. Being optimistic in the offseason is almost all we have to cling onto.