D'Natagal wrote:So if we have the #1 offense and Ricky cannot shoot, what am I missing? Would the Wolves be scoring 10 pts /game more if he could shoot? Ricky can be the floor general, draw fouls, rebound and defend, do we really need an offensive minded point guard? I would rather keep the offense as is but have a coach with some defensive schemes that the players can work with. #stoptheRickyhate
Playoff games are grind it out half court wars that you can't win with a primary ball handler who can't shoot. We can run and score a bunch of points and be fun in the regular season, but come playoff time games slow down, refs swallow their whistles and it becomes time to battle and we don't have a defense or a half court offense that can win that battle.
True.
But let's see if the team can win 1/3 of its games first. Then, 1/2 its games. Then, make the playoffs...
So we should just keep fighting to get to .500 with the same PG who's never helped us get more than a game over .500 and then get whooped in the playoffs before realizing he's not gonna work? Seems stupid to me to wait until he has to be moved before moving him. That would lower his value wouldn't it because teams would know we need to get rid of him?
I find the suggestion that we maybe should get rid of Ricky before other teams figure out that he can't win in the playoffs a little oversimplified. First of all, if all of us rube have it figured out, then so do the other 29 teams... so we'll get nothing for him now or later.
But more important, I just don't think it's true. Yes, playoff basketball is more of a grind it out, half court game. But teams don't just play PG and Big PnR, they put the ball into the best player's hands. If that's a PG like Curry, so be it, but if it's Lebron, Wade, or Harden, it's because that player is the right one to execute the PnR... and the PG is on the court for other reasons. In that case, Ricky would see plenty of open 3's... and his shooting percentage is much more an issue of not being able to finish at the rim than his 3-point shooting.
Right now, Lavine and Wiggins play mediocre to awful defense... and Towns and Dieng get abused inside. That's a lot bigger issue on our way to playoff basketball than our PG. Sure I'd love to have a Top-5 PG, but we have a ton of other issues to resolve before that one.
Not sure if Ricky made any 3s in the last two games or not but before that he was on a 5-36 tear from deep. Ricky is not a capable 3pt shooter . IMO
Ricky is shooting 30% from beyond the arc the same percentage as Bazz. I know some people think that Bazz could be a deep threat, so chew on that.
khans2k5 wrote:Yes we have other problems than Ricky that need to be addressed. That doesn't mean we should just wait to cross the Ricky bridge when we come to it. If you think it might be a problem moving forward then you better have a backup plan because by the time it matters we might have 3 max guys on the team and no money to fix the problem. If you think it might be a problem and you have a chance to plug that hole before it becomes a crater then I think you should do it. I'm not saying dump Ricky to dump him, but there was clearly some interest for him at the deadline so I am definitely taking calls on him and even making a few to see if we can plug that hole rather than wait and hope it's not a problem.
I guess the difference is that some of us, Q and myself particularly, don't see Rubio or the starting PG position as a "hole" that needs to be plugged. He's a top-15 point guard at worst in the NBA. You and Cool believe that we have no chance to win in the playoffs with Rubio as our floor general, and you have a right to that opinion. After all, it is just an opinion because we're not even there yet. It gets slightly annoying, however, when the two of you and Pork talk about this inability to win playoff games with him as a fact when in reality it isn't.
D'Natagal wrote:So if we have the #1 offense and Ricky cannot shoot, what am I missing? Would the Wolves be scoring 10 pts /game more if he could shoot? Ricky can be the floor general, draw fouls, rebound and defend, do we really need an offensive minded point guard? I would rather keep the offense as is but have a coach with some defensive schemes that the players can work with. #stoptheRickyhate
Playoff games are grind it out half court wars that you can't win with a primary ball handler who can't shoot. We can run and score a bunch of points and be fun in the regular season, but come playoff time games slow down, refs swallow their whistles and it becomes time to battle and we don't have a defense or a half court offense that can win that battle.
True.
But let's see if the team can win 1/3 of its games first. Then, 1/2 its games. Then, make the playoffs...
So we should just keep fighting to get to .500 with the same PG who's never helped us get more than a game over .500 and then get whooped in the playoffs before realizing he's not gonna work? Seems stupid to me to wait until he has to be moved before moving him. That would lower his value wouldn't it because teams would know we need to get rid of him?
I find the suggestion that we maybe should get rid of Ricky before other teams figure out that he can't win in the playoffs a little oversimplified. First of all, if all of us rube have it figured out, then so do the other 29 teams... so we'll get nothing for him now or later.
But more important, I just don't think it's true. Yes, playoff basketball is more of a grind it out, half court game. But teams don't just play PG and Big PnR, they put the ball into the best player's hands. If that's a PG like Curry, so be it, but if it's Lebron, Wade, or Harden, it's because that player is the right one to execute the PnR... and the PG is on the court for other reasons. In that case, Ricky would see plenty of open 3's... and his shooting percentage is much more an issue of not being able to finish at the rim than his 3-point shooting.
Right now, Lavine and Wiggins play mediocre to awful defense... and Towns and Dieng get abused inside. That's a lot bigger issue on our way to playoff basketball than our PG. Sure I'd love to have a Top-5 PG, but we have a ton of other issues to resolve before that one.
Not sure if Ricky made any 3s in the last two games or not but before that he was on a 5-36 tear from deep. Ricky is not a capable 3pt shooter . IMO
Ricky is shooting 30% from beyond the arc the same percentage as Bazz. I know some people think that Bazz could be a deep threat, so chew on that.
1) They might be wrong about Bazz, too?
2) Rubio is in Year 5. He's teetered between 34% his rookie season to 26% last season... to 30% this season. He's been a below average shooter from 3 every single season. And that's with mostly wide open looks. The narrative that Rubio is suddenly going to start making shots out there has to be discarded at some point.
khans2k5 wrote:Yes we have other problems than Ricky that need to be addressed. That doesn't mean we should just wait to cross the Ricky bridge when we come to it. If you think it might be a problem moving forward then you better have a backup plan because by the time it matters we might have 3 max guys on the team and no money to fix the problem. If you think it might be a problem and you have a chance to plug that hole before it becomes a crater then I think you should do it. I'm not saying dump Ricky to dump him, but there was clearly some interest for him at the deadline so I am definitely taking calls on him and even making a few to see if we can plug that hole rather than wait and hope it's not a problem.
I guess the difference is that some of us, Q and myself particularly, don't see Rubio or the starting PG position as a "hole" that needs to be plugged. He's a top-15 point guard at worst in the NBA. You and Cool believe that we have no chance to win in the playoffs with Rubio as our floor general, and you have a right to that opinion. After all, it is just an opinion because we're not even there yet. It gets slightly annoying, however, when the two of you and Pork talk about this inability to win playoff games with him as a fact when in reality it isn't.
That's fair. You're right. Nobody knows for certain.
The Wolves have never come close to making the playoffs with Rubio as PG... whether that's all his fault or none of his fault... it's the one fact we have.
Camden0916 wrote:All-time PER leaders for starting PGs with under 10 points per game:
18.1 Ricky Rubio 15-16
17.7 Mark Jackson 99-00
17.2 Mark Jackson 97-98
And you chuckled becuz I used plus minus on a KG topic. Here you are using PER . How many times have you lol'd at someone using that metric for their argument? Interesting!
I didn't even include that in a Rubio argument... I just thought it was an interesting stat find from a Twitter account I follow. Did Ricky Rubio do something to you personally? Yeesh. Settle down, save that sarcasm for a day that actually calls for it.
D'Natagal wrote:So if we have the #1 offense and Ricky cannot shoot, what am I missing? Would the Wolves be scoring 10 pts /game more if he could shoot? Ricky can be the floor general, draw fouls, rebound and defend, do we really need an offensive minded point guard? I would rather keep the offense as is but have a coach with some defensive schemes that the players can work with. #stoptheRickyhate
Playoff games are grind it out half court wars that you can't win with a primary ball handler who can't shoot. We can run and score a bunch of points and be fun in the regular season, but come playoff time games slow down, refs swallow their whistles and it becomes time to battle and we don't have a defense or a half court offense that can win that battle.
True.
But let's see if the team can win 1/3 of its games first. Then, 1/2 its games. Then, make the playoffs...
So we should just keep fighting to get to .500 with the same PG who's never helped us get more than a game over .500 and then get whooped in the playoffs before realizing he's not gonna work? Seems stupid to me to wait until he has to be moved before moving him. That would lower his value wouldn't it because teams would know we need to get rid of him?
I find the suggestion that we maybe should get rid of Ricky before other teams figure out that he can't win in the playoffs a little oversimplified. First of all, if all of us rube have it figured out, then so do the other 29 teams... so we'll get nothing for him now or later.
But more important, I just don't think it's true. Yes, playoff basketball is more of a grind it out, half court game. But teams don't just play PG and Big PnR, they put the ball into the best player's hands. If that's a PG like Curry, so be it, but if it's Lebron, Wade, or Harden, it's because that player is the right one to execute the PnR... and the PG is on the court for other reasons. In that case, Ricky would see plenty of open 3's... and his shooting percentage is much more an issue of not being able to finish at the rim than his 3-point shooting.
Right now, Lavine and Wiggins play mediocre to awful defense... and Towns and Dieng get abused inside. That's a lot bigger issue on our way to playoff basketball than our PG. Sure I'd love to have a Top-5 PG, but we have a ton of other issues to resolve before that one.
Not sure if Ricky made any 3s in the last two games or not but before that he was on a 5-36 tear from deep. Ricky is not a capable 3pt shooter . IMO
Ricky is shooting 30% from beyond the arc the same percentage as Bazz. I know some people think that Bazz could be a deep threat, so chew on that.
So the player you frown upon most you compare as equals with the player you love most? Great!
khans2k5 wrote:Yes we have other problems than Ricky that need to be addressed. That doesn't mean we should just wait to cross the Ricky bridge when we come to it. If you think it might be a problem moving forward then you better have a backup plan because by the time it matters we might have 3 max guys on the team and no money to fix the problem. If you think it might be a problem and you have a chance to plug that hole before it becomes a crater then I think you should do it. I'm not saying dump Ricky to dump him, but there was clearly some interest for him at the deadline so I am definitely taking calls on him and even making a few to see if we can plug that hole rather than wait and hope it's not a problem.
I guess the difference is that some of us, Q and myself particularly, don't see Rubio or the starting PG position as a "hole" that needs to be plugged. He's a top-15 point guard at worst in the NBA. You and Cool believe that we have no chance to win in the playoffs with Rubio as our floor general, and you have a right to that opinion. After all, it is just an opinion because we're not even there yet. It gets slightly annoying, however, when the two of you and Pork talk about this inability to win playoff games with him as a fact when in reality it isn't.
That's fair. You're right. Nobody knows for certain.
The Wolves have never come close to making the playoffs with Rubio as PG... whether that's all his fault or none of his fault... it's the one fact we have.
No. We have other facts. For example, the Wolves have never come close to making the playoffs in the 10 years since KG was traded to the Celtics. The Wolves never came close to making the playoffs until after KG, Googs and Marbury were all part of the Wolves roster. The Wolves missed the playoffs in KG's last season before being traded to Boston. The Wolves have never come close to the playoffs except when Bill Clinton or George W Bush was president. :)
Referring to Rubio as the common denominator in the Wolves failure to make the playoffs as if there's some significant connection is one of the silliest things I've ever read on this or any other message board. The inference might not be so silly if someone had referred to Rubio as a franchise player. But no one has or could credibly make that claim.
Ricky is a good player and the stats show he's a net positive to the team. But that's all he is and all anyone on the Board claims him to be. But note also that even an eventual hall-of-fame player - KG - could not get the Wolves to the playoffs alone.
The future fortune if this team will depend on those players who have the potential to be great - Towns, Wiggins, LaVine. Ricky can help but it's mainly about the three 20 year olds. And it will obviously take more that one great player as the Pelican fans are learning this season.
khans2k5 wrote:Yes we have other problems than Ricky that need to be addressed. That doesn't mean we should just wait to cross the Ricky bridge when we come to it. If you think it might be a problem moving forward then you better have a backup plan because by the time it matters we might have 3 max guys on the team and no money to fix the problem. If you think it might be a problem and you have a chance to plug that hole before it becomes a crater then I think you should do it. I'm not saying dump Ricky to dump him, but there was clearly some interest for him at the deadline so I am definitely taking calls on him and even making a few to see if we can plug that hole rather than wait and hope it's not a problem.
I guess the difference is that some of us, Q and myself particularly, don't see Rubio or the starting PG position as a "hole" that needs to be plugged. He's a top-15 point guard at worst in the NBA. You and Cool believe that we have no chance to win in the playoffs with Rubio as our floor general, and you have a right to that opinion. After all, it is just an opinion because we're not even there yet. It gets slightly annoying, however, when the two of you and Pork talk about this inability to win playoff games with him as a fact when in reality it isn't.
That's fair. You're right. Nobody knows for certain.
The Wolves have never come close to making the playoffs with Rubio as PG... whether that's all his fault or none of his fault... it's the one fact we have.
No. We have other facts. For example, the Wolves have never come close to making the playoffs in the 10 years since KG was traded to the Celtics. The Wolves never came close to making the playoffs until after KG, Googs and Marbury were all part of the Wolves roster. The Wolves missed the playoffs in KG's last season before being traded to Boston. The Wolves have never come close to the playoffs except when Bill Clinton or George W Bush was president. :)
Referring to Rubio as the common denominator in the Wolves failure to make the playoffs as if there's some significant connection is one of the silliest things I've ever read on this or any other message board. The inference might not be so silly if someone had referred to Rubio as a franchise player. But no one has or could credibly make that claim.
Ricky is a good player and the stats show he's a net positive to the team. But that's all he is and all anyone on the Board claims him to be. But note also that even an eventual hall-of-fame player - KG - could not get the Wolves to the playoffs alone.
The future fortune if this team will depend on those players who have the potential to be great - Towns, Wiggins, LaVine. Ricky can help but it's mainly about the three 20 year olds. And it will obviously take more that one great player as the Pelican fans are learning this season.
"whether that's all his fault or none of his fault"
Nobody knows for certain how much, if any, blame Rubio deserves. But we do know for a fact that the Wolves have been shitty. Since we seem to agree... why are you quoting me in an argumentative way?
PorkChop wrote:Is Ricky the first top 5 pick that didn't reach his potential that everyone still makes excuses for? Name me another!?
To be fair here you are goading people again into making statements so really you shoulder some of the blame. No it's time for a lengthy discussion of how much blame is yours. :) I get it Porkchop we all have our soap box topics here. I have a friend that actually carries a soapbox piece of paper in his wallet and he is known to stop before saying something and take the "soapbox" out of his wallet stand on it and then deliver his thoughts.
* It's pretty obvious at this point based on the sheer volume of Runio discussion he is the team's most important player. It's fact I did all the number crunching. He is therefore obviously underpaid and undervalued by all. *
