Building a Championship Contender Via Trade

[thedoper]

If we're not in win now mode when the fuck are we going to be? I am all for winning now and they better start doing it. Great franchises are always in win now mode. We should always be looking to maximize our assets.

I should clarify. Nobody loses their job if the Wolves don't "win now." The fanbase doesn't become more apathetic if they don't "win now."

I agree that the team should be doing what it can to win the most games it can. I'm just acknowledging that there's not a ton of pressure to do so.

Shouldn't we start putting some pressure on? I'm all for it. I am being a bit facetious and you're 100% right in your assessment. I am just sick about thinking about our potential only. I see a lot of wildcards in our situation panning out just from developing our assets. Looking at trading our potential #3 in favor of bringing in a legit winner seems like a decent plan to me.

[longstrangetrip [enjin:6600564]]

If we're not in win now mode when the fuck are we going to be? I am all for winning now and they better start doing it. Great franchises are always in win now mode. We should always be looking to maximize our assets.

I should clarify. Nobody loses their job if the Wolves don't "win now." The fanbase doesn't become more apathetic if they don't "win now."

I agree that the team should be doing what it can to win the most games it can. I'm just acknowledging that there's not a ton of pressure to do so.

Shouldn't we start putting some pressure on? I'm all for it. I am being a bit facetious and you're 100% right in your assessment. I am just sick about thinking about our potential only. I see a lot of wildcards in our situation panning out just from developing our assets. Looking at trading our potential #3 in favor of bringing in a legit winner seems like a decent plan to me.

Yes...yes, we should start putting some pressure on as fans! The time is ripe for huge expectations! I have laid out my goal of 56 wins in an earlier thread, so I won't get too detailed here. But basically my logic goes like this:

We were a .500 team the last quarter of the season last year with 3 players in the starting lineup not old enough to drink and, according to Rube chat and to some extent this board too, the worst coach in the history of the NBA. So beginning with a baseline of 41 wins, how many more wins SHOULD we expect from:

1) 1 more year of seasoning and experience from our Big 3, Belly, Gorgui, Bazz and even Ricky
2) an upgrade from the worst coach ever to one of the best (not my words :) )
3) the addition of the #5 draft pick
4) likely addition of at least one, and maybe two, key free agent pickups.

I would argue that points 1, 2 and 4 are worth a 10-game improvement (especially 1 and 4) so if Thibs replacing Sam can't add another 5 wins to get us to 56, he should be feeling some heat from the fans. He has job security, of course, but he should not be given anything close to a free pass from fans in terms of our expectations.

Those are my thoughts. But this is Minnesota where we accept and make excuses for mediocrity, so I suspect most fans will use more like this kind of logic: "We only won 29 games last year, so we should be satisfied with 39 this year...after all how many teams improve 10 wins in a season?"

As for me, I will not be attending the parade for Thibs if we only improve 10 wins next year!

[khans2k5 [enjin:6608728]]

If we're not in win now mode when the fuck are we going to be? I am all for winning now and they better start doing it. Great franchises are always in win now mode. We should always be looking to maximize our assets.

I should clarify. Nobody loses their job if the Wolves don't "win now." The fanbase doesn't become more apathetic if they don't "win now."

I agree that the team should be doing what it can to win the most games it can. I'm just acknowledging that there's not a ton of pressure to do so.

Shouldn't we start putting some pressure on? I'm all for it. I am being a bit facetious and you're 100% right in your assessment. I am just sick about thinking about our potential only. I see a lot of wildcards in our situation panning out just from developing our assets. Looking at trading our potential #3 in favor of bringing in a legit winner seems like a decent plan to me.

Yes...yes, we should start putting some pressure on as fans! The time is ripe for huge expectations! I have laid out my goal of 56 wins in an earlier thread, so I won't get too detailed here. But basically my logic goes like this:

We were a .500 team the last quarter of the season last year with 3 players in the starting lineup not old enough to drink and, according to Rube chat and to some extent this board too, the worst coach in the history of the NBA. So beginning with a baseline of 41 wins, how many more wins SHOULD we expect from:

1) 1 more year of seasoning and experience from our Big 3, Belly, Gorgui, Bazz and even Ricky
2) an upgrade from the worst coach ever to one of the best (not my words :) )
3) the addition of the #5 draft pick
4) likely addition of at least one, and maybe two, key free agent pickups.

I would argue that points 1, 2 and 4 are worth a 10-game improvement (especially 1 and 4) so if Thibs replacing Sam can't add another 5 wins to get us to 56, he should be feeling some heat from the fans. He has job security, of course, but he should not be given anything close to a free pass from fans in terms of our expectations.

Those are my thoughts. But this is Minnesota where we accept and make excuses for mediocrity, so I suspect most fans will use more like this kind of logic: "We only won 29 games last year, so we should be satisfied with 39 this year...after all how many teams improve 10 wins in a season?"

As for me, I will not be attending the parade for Thibs if we only improve 10 wins next year!

56 is a huge jump and would make us a top 4 seed in the West (it's more than OKC won this year with 2 top 10 players in the league). I don't see that as realistic.

I think 42-48 is where we should end up and it's a realistic jump from a sub .500 team. Being .500 during the last quarter stretch of the season means nothing when 1/4 of the teams you are playing are tanking for lottery balls or playing young guys who normally wouldn't play in the middle of a playoff hunt.

[Squishypoo [enjin:6648839]]

I think a lot of people have missed my point. I acknowledge that free agency has been a common secondary source of core players on championship contenders. My focus was on trades. And I still think top 2 players (or even top 3 players) on championship contenders have rarely been acquired through trades, especially trading a 1st round pick. There are exceptions to the rule. I pointed out a few and some have identified a few others. And I've never suggested that it's rare to acquire players via trade who help the team win. Again, I was focused on TRADES that bring in one of a team's TOP TWO players.

I noticed that most lumped FA/trades together and I haven't gone back to separate them out. The Celtics traded for KG, so that's an example. But they drafted Paul Pierce. I think they signed Ray Allen as a FA, but I'm not sure. Cleveland signed LeBron as a FA to pair with Kyrie Irving who they drafted. Love is an example of trading for a team's 3rd best player, but he's a distant third to the other two and arguably the Cavs would be better off with Wiggins. I think the Bulls acquired Pau Gasol in a trade to pair with their two best players, Rose and Butler, who they drafted. But Gasol may have been signed as a FA. The Iggy trade was a good one for GS, but I don't see him as one of their two or even three best players the past two seasons when they've been championship contenders. I thought it was a great deal for the Warriors at the time. Monta was a one-dimensional player , a high volume relatively low percentage scorer. He had been in the League a while and no one thought he'd become more than he was then. Nothing like Zach or Wiggins.

I thought LBJ was traded to MIA for like 5 draft picks and a traded player exception ?

[petecorcoran [enjin:6658618]]

I just don't think that Thibs is planning for 3 or 4 years down the road. I think he's confident enough to think that with him as coach last year, this team would have won 35+ games. Now add that year of experience and a quality draft choice and he's not thinking about .500 ball, he's think that the 5th seed only won 46 games. Move up to 5th or 6th next year, then a quality free agent or trade acquisition and the team moves into the top 4 not later than the following year.

We may never get there, but a lot of people would prefer that approach to waiting 3 or 4 years and hoping everyone stays healthy and Zach and Dunn improve enough to be our last ingredients.

[BizarroJerry [enjin:6592520]]

I just don't think that Thibs is planning for 3 or 4 years down the road. I think he's confident enough to think that with him as coach last year, this team would have won 35+ games. Now add that year of experience and a quality draft choice and he's not thinking about .500 ball, he's think that the 5th seed only won 46 games. Move up to 5th or 6th next year, then a quality free agent or trade acquisition and the team moves into the top 4 not later than the following year.

We may never get there, but a lot of people would prefer that approach to waiting 3 or 4 years and hoping everyone stays healthy and Zach and Dunn improve enough to be our last ingredients.

Pete, myself and some others would be very happy if this team turned into 50-55 wins next year and it's entirely possible without dumping 20 million on Horford or Noah. My slow approach means winning a title in 5 years when these guys are in their primes. I suspect you won't find any past champions where the best 3 players are under 25.

[AbeVigodaLive]

I just don't think that Thibs is planning for 3 or 4 years down the road. I think he's confident enough to think that with him as coach last year, this team would have won 35+ games. Now add that year of experience and a quality draft choice and he's not thinking about .500 ball, he's think that the 5th seed only won 46 games. Move up to 5th or 6th next year, then a quality free agent or trade acquisition and the team moves into the top 4 not later than the following year.

We may never get there, but a lot of people would prefer that approach to waiting 3 or 4 years and hoping everyone stays healthy and Zach and Dunn improve enough to be our last ingredients.

Pete, myself and some others would be very happy if this team turned into 50-55 wins next year and it's entirely possible without dumping 20 million on Horford or Noah. My slow approach means winning a title in 5 years when these guys are in their primes. I suspect you won't find any past champions where the best 3 players are under 25.

How many past champions in the modern era had its 3 best players all learn the NBA game together since they were 19 or 20?

This isn't advocating a max contract move... Only cautioning against assuming Towns, Wiggins and LaVine (or Dunn) will be the three best players when the Wolves are at their best.

[petecorcoran [enjin:6658618]]

I just don't think that Thibs is planning for 3 or 4 years down the road. I think he's confident enough to think that with him as coach last year, this team would have won 35+ games. Now add that year of experience and a quality draft choice and he's not thinking about .500 ball, he's think that the 5th seed only won 46 games. Move up to 5th or 6th next year, then a quality free agent or trade acquisition and the team moves into the top 4 not later than the following year.

We may never get there, but a lot of people would prefer that approach to waiting 3 or 4 years and hoping everyone stays healthy and Zach and Dunn improve enough to be our last ingredients.

Pete, myself and some others would be very happy if this team turned into 50-55 wins next year and it's entirely possible without dumping 20 million on Horford or Noah. My slow approach means winning a title in 5 years when these guys are in their primes. I suspect you won't find any past champions where the best 3 players are under 25.

How many past champions in the modern era had its 3 best players all learn the NBA game together since they were 19 or 20?

This isn't advocating a max contract move... Only cautioning against assuming Towns, Wiggins and LaVine (or Dunn) will be the three best players when the Wolves are at their best.

Another angle I hadn't really thought of... and the name of it is Capology. Three more years and Ricky has finished his contract... and Wig and Lavine are restricted free-agents. And the year after that, Towns. So, if Lavine reaches the levels people hope for, we could face 70-75% of the then cap devoted to 3 players, with Ricky and other free-agents on the outside looking in (unless Taylor wants to go way over the cap).

You can get vets to play for a little less for the chance to grab a ring, but never players getting the first big post-rookie deal. So, three things: (1) I'd be shocked if the team hands out any 3-year FA deals this summer unless they are lower cost... and (2) there is no way all 4 are on the team three years from now... more likely 2 of them are gone, but only Lavine if Dunn is less than we hope... and (3) just another reason why building for 4-5 years is crazy.

[BizarroJerry [enjin:6592520]]

Fair point Abe. I'm also leery of taking on a bad max contract and content to see if this team as it is can get better without much addition (I'm ok moving players when necessary but I see our Big 3 or 4 really improving the next two years and beyond)

[AbeVigodaLive]

Fair point Abe. I'm also leery of taking on a bad max contract and content to see if this team as it is can get better without much addition (I'm ok moving players when necessary but I see our Big 3 or 4 really improving the next two years and beyond)

I think we'll see the Wolves spend big. (They have to, right? Just to reach the salary cap floor?)

But it will be a 2-year deal. They won't be alone. Things are going to be so crazy... I can see guys like Jamal Crawford getting $30 - $35M on 2 year contracts. After all, teams will have PLENTY of space to roll it in. And it won't damage the financial future of the team.