monsterpile wrote:It's almost amusing at this point to me that we must now have to choose Rubio or Dunn. It's funny how sometimes history repeats itself. the Wolves go through droughts of time with poor PG play and then have some sort of surplus and let guys go that are really valuable or trade them away sometimes picking the wrong guys to let go and the wrong guys to keep. The Wolves have 3 young PGs with intriguing talents. All are signed for at least 3 years. Keeping all 3 isn't that expensive and teams play combo guards all the time. If either Tyus or Dunn are pretty talented it won't be hard to find them time to get them on the floor it will be a very good problem to have. Let's sit back and enjoy the wonderful depth we have at the position and quit worrying about moving this guy or that guy. If the Wolves can't shore up some of the other issues on the team via FA well they are terrible at their jobs. I don't see Layden and Thibs being that stupid.
Extremely well said, Monster! I'm going to take what you wrote here as the final definitely word on the Ricky/Dunn debate. Now it's on to other more central issues like who we're going to sign as free agents.
Couldn't agree more with Monster - it's the whole reason I wanted Dunn in the first place! I think what has been disconcerting to most Wolves fans is that credible NBA insiders like Woj have mentioned that we were actively shopping Rubio. And if you listen to the way Thibs and Layden discuss the issue, you don't come away super confident that they intend on keeping Rubio.
I'll be the next to say that Monster wrapped it up very well. First off, I doubt this year is turned over to a rookie and 2nd year pg with Thibs being in his first season as head coach. Second, Rubio has been completely annihilated since Dunn was drafted. Rubio is very good and our only veteran who actually is guaranteed to play games, He is the least of our problems. I'm with these guys, let's sit back and enjoy that we finally turned an annual position of weakness into a strength.
Mr. Brightside wrote:I was initially concerned by Dunn's low assist:turnover ratio. However, in looking at many of the league's top point guards' college stats, I found it difficult to find any ratios above 2.
Curry, Westbrook, Wall, Rose, Lowry, Lillard, etc. This has lessened my concern a great deal.
Most of those guys have been either freshmen (Westbrook, Wall, Rose) or main scorers of really small school (Curry, Lillard). Dunn is senior and he isn't nearly same level scorer than Curry or Lillard were. So I think those were not that good comparisons. In addition it seems that most of the guys, you listed have had pretty bad assists/TO ratio also in NBA. Lowry has been sole exception in that group. All others have almost never achieved even 2.5 assists/TO ratio in NBA.
Someone had brought up the comparison of Dunn to Lowry before. A slightly bigger, more agile Lowry type sounds about right. If that's Dunn's ceiling, i'm very excited.
Yes, Lowry certainly qualifies as does-a-lot-of-shit type of player as he gets a lot of rebounds and steals for a point guard. Still he is pretty unique player as he still has been improving even tough he is close to 30 years old. His outside shooting that originally was major weakness has been one of the things that has improved a lot even lately. Last season he ranked 5th in made three pointers.
I think John Wall without as good court vision but slightly better defense could be another comparison about Dunn's ceiling. And bigger Beverley with better play making could be his floor.
Mr. Brightside wrote:I was initially concerned by Dunn's low assist:turnover ratio. However, in looking at many of the league's top point guards' college stats, I found it difficult to find any ratios above 2.
Curry, Westbrook, Wall, Rose, Lowry, Lillard, etc. This has lessened my concern a great deal.
Most of those guys have been either freshmen (Westbrook, Wall, Rose) or main scorers of really small school (Curry, Lillard). Dunn is senior and he isn't nearly same level scorer than Curry or Lillard were. So I think those were not that good comparisons. In addition it seems that most of the guys, you listed have had pretty bad assists/TO ratio also in NBA. Lowry has been sole exception in that group. All others have almost never achieved even 2.5 assists/TO ratio in NBA.
So are you saying you wouldn't take any of the point guards (probably not Rose) over Rubio right now?
That was my point with the assists/TO ratio argument that is being used against Dunn.
At the very least... we should know more about how much stock to put into those Rubio ON/OFF numbers this season considering the team SHOULD have another viable PG on the squad.
5 years in now... and I still don't know how good Rubio is despite him being basically the same player he's always been. That's rare for me. He's just so unique that he's a hard guy to figure out in this league. This season with a growing, maturing talented group and a really good coach and a promising PG also on the squad should tell us a lot about Ricky Rubio the player.
Then again, I've said previous seasons would give us a better idea about his prospects... and I was largely wrong.
AbeVigodaLive wrote:At the very least... we should know more about how much stock to put into those Rubio ON/OFF numbers this season considering the team SHOULD have another viable PG on the squad.
5 years in now... and I still don't know how good Rubio is despite him being basically the same player he's always been. That's rare for me. He's just so unique that he's a hard guy to figure out in this league. This season with a growing, maturing talented group and a really good coach and a promising PG also on the squad should tell us a lot about Ricky Rubio the player.
Then again, I've said previous seasons would give us a better idea about his prospects... and I was largely wrong.
You always say this and it doesn't make sense to me. We know he isn't the type of guy that can put a team on his back and take over games. We also know that he is capable of being on elite offensive and defensive units. I don't think he's that much of a mystery.
AbeVigodaLive wrote:At the very least... we should know more about how much stock to put into those Rubio ON/OFF numbers this season considering the team SHOULD have another viable PG on the squad.
5 years in now... and I still don't know how good Rubio is despite him being basically the same player he's always been. That's rare for me. He's just so unique that he's a hard guy to figure out in this league. This season with a growing, maturing talented group and a really good coach and a promising PG also on the squad should tell us a lot about Ricky Rubio the player.
Then again, I've said previous seasons would give us a better idea about his prospects... and I was largely wrong.
You always say this and it doesn't make sense to me. We know he isn't the type of guy that can put a team on his back and take over games. We also know that he is capable of being on elite offensive and defensive units. I don't think he's that much of a mystery.
I'm not sold on #2.
I don't think one season where the team was in the top 10 offensively and close to it defensively (and one month offensively this season) is enough to make that claim.
That 2014 season was just so odd and almost unprecedented. Personally, I don't know what to make of it. Do we give Rubio credit for the performance of that starting lineup that blitzed teams and won 10 games while up 30 or more points in the first half of the season... or does he get ripped for his 4th quarter performances in a string of heartbreaking defeats that kept the team from competing for a playoff spot?
I don't know... There's a lot of noise with those two things... and I don't think you can pick one without acknowledging the other.
I also say (often) that Rubio is who is and has always been. He hasn't improved significantly in my opinion. My point is that I don't know where that puts him among the game's starting PG... I guess somewhere in the middle... sorta? I'd like to see what he can do on a winning team. That's the one thing we haven't seen yet.
AbeVigodaLive wrote:At the very least... we should know more about how much stock to put into those Rubio ON/OFF numbers this season considering the team SHOULD have another viable PG on the squad.
5 years in now... and I still don't know how good Rubio is despite him being basically the same player he's always been. That's rare for me. He's just so unique that he's a hard guy to figure out in this league. This season with a growing, maturing talented group and a really good coach and a promising PG also on the squad should tell us a lot about Ricky Rubio the player.
Then again, I've said previous seasons would give us a better idea about his prospects... and I was largely wrong.
You always say this and it doesn't make sense to me. We know he isn't the type of guy that can put a team on his back and take over games. We also know that he is capable of being on elite offensive and defensive units. I don't think he's that much of a mystery.
I'm not sold on #2.
I don't think one season where the team was in the top 10 offensively and close to it defensively (and one month offensively this season) is enough to make that claim.
That 2014 season was just so odd and almost unprecedented. Personally, I don't know what to make of it. Do we give Rubio credit for the performance of that starting lineup that blitzed teams and won 10 games while up 30 or more points in the first half of the season... or does he get ripped for his 4th quarter performances in a string of heartbreaking defeats that kept the team from competing for a playoff spot?
I don't know... There's a lot of noise with those two things... and I don't think you can pick one without acknowledging the other.
I also say (often) that Rubio is who is and has always been. He hasn't improved significantly in my opinion. My point is that I don't know where that puts him among the game's starting PG... I guess somewhere in the middle... sorta? I'd like to see what he can do on a winning team. That's the one thing we haven't seen yet.
He'd do the same things he's always done, both the good and the bad.
I'll start by admitting that Ricky is flawed. Unfortunately, I can pick at flaws for everyone on the team not named Towns. Whether it's Wig's lack of a 3-point shot, or Lavine's tendency to get out of control or Shabazz's tendency to go one-on-three or Georgi's lack of rim protection, it doesn't matter... there are maybe 30 guys in the league that have no visible flaws... and Ricky is not one of them.
Regardless, this is a team that improved 13 wins last year (maybe more if no Mitchell) with 3 starters that weren't old enough to vote. So, what I feel good about is that even without Dunn and without free-agent additions, this team should win even more this year by the natural improvement from the youngsters. add a solid new coach, Dunn and some free agents and the playoffs are more possible than in a long time.
I don't think Ricky is at an age where we can expect improvement... if it comes in the numbers, I suspect it will be because the players around him have improved. But given his current level of play, I will be shocked if Dunn is better right away and becomes the starter this year... if he does, we have a really good young player. and I have full confidence that Thibs will recognize when and if Dunn is the better choice and make the move. It's a no-lose situation for us.
AbeVigodaLive wrote:At the very least... we should know more about how much stock to put into those Rubio ON/OFF numbers this season considering the team SHOULD have another viable PG on the squad.
5 years in now... and I still don't know how good Rubio is despite him being basically the same player he's always been. That's rare for me. He's just so unique that he's a hard guy to figure out in this league. This season with a growing, maturing talented group and a really good coach and a promising PG also on the squad should tell us a lot about Ricky Rubio the player.
Then again, I've said previous seasons would give us a better idea about his prospects... and I was largely wrong.
I've stated the same previously and it is one of the reasons i really wanted to draft Dunn. In 5 years there has not been a promising PG to challenge Rubio at that position. He was gifted the starting job and hasn't had to look behind him a single time. Maybe that's a reason he hasn't improved as much as we would have hoped. Dunn will light a fire in Rubio's ass.
I also agree with what Brightside said about having another scoring threat, especially in the playoffs. Rubio's shooting woes aren't as noticeable over 82 games where we generally are losing, but if we ever make the playoffs i can see Rubio being unplayable at times. To win in this league you need your PG to be a threat to score otherwise the opposing team has such an easy time defending you.
There was a good discussion on KFAN today on this topic between Barreiro and Jon K. They agreed with the consensus here that it would be foolish to move Ricky before we are certain Dunn can handle the job. They both thought the ideal situation for Dunn was to spend at least this year backing up Ricky (and they agreed there is no guarantee Dunn will even be an adequate backup this year).
When Dan asked Jon if Thibs was really making Rubio available for a deal last week, Jon thought he was...for the right deal. He said he wasn't certain that Thibs was really sold on Ricky at PG. But then he said something that I wasn't aware of. He said that when Flip inherited Ricky as his PG, privately he was revealing that he wasnt sure Ricky was the right guy for the team. But after he learned more about Ricky's intensity, work ethic and effectiveness, he became sold on him. Jon K said he wouldn't be surprised if the same thing happened with Thibs after he has the chance to coach him.
