Rubio and Dunn

[Lipoli390]

Khans - You're assuming Thibs is tied to one style of play. Thibs has said over and over again that you have to adapt your style to the players you have. He had Rose and built his offense around Rose's strengths. It's that simple.

It's Thibs' core values that remain constant and tell us he's not lying when he says he likes Ricky. Thibs core values are defense, toughness, intelligence, unselfishness and sharing the ball. Rubio is an A player in all those categories.

Again, it's not that Thibs would refuse to trade him. It's just silly to think Thibs would actively shop him without first securing an adequate replacement. Thibs didn't have Dunn until Thursday night and Thibs us too smart to assume that a guy who's never played an NBA game will be better that Ricky in his first season or good enough to take this team to the playoffs.

[60WinTim]

I have two comments to make. And I am going to make them.

1) Just because twitter says Thibs is "shopping Rubio" does not make it true. But I will say it suggests Rubio is on the "available for right deal" list, along with everyone else not named KAT, Wiggins and LaVine (and Dunn).

2) If Thibs were to trade Rubio, you can bet he will be obtaining a quality vet PG that could very easily start the season until Dunn is ready to take over the reigns. Trading Rubio does not mean we are committed to a Dunn/Tyus PG tandem...

I think we will see both Rubio and Dunn on the roster to start the season, but I certainly would not bet a large amount of money on it!

[khans2k5 [enjin:6608728]]

Khans - You're assuming Thibs is tied to one style of play. Thibs has said over and over again that you have to adapt your style to the players you have. He had Rose and built his offense around Rose's strengths. It's that simple.

It's Thibs' core values that remain constant and tell us he's not lying when he says he likes Ricky. Thibs core values are defense, toughness, intelligence, unselfishness and sharing the ball. Rubio is an A player in all those categories.

Again, it's not that Thibs would refuse to trade him. It's just silly to think Thibs would actively shop him without first securing an adequate replacement. Thibs didn't have Dunn until Thursday night and Thibs us too smart to assume that a guy who's never played an NBA game will be better that Ricky in his first season or good enough to take this team to the playoffs.

Coaches change their style for the players they have, but that doesn't change who they believe will be the best players for the way they like to play. Adelman threw out most of his offense when he was here because Ricky isn't the type of PG who can be good in a Princeton offense. That doesn't mean Ricky was the type of PG he preferred to have. Thibs was a scoring PG whisperer in Chicago. I'm sure he can change some stuff to keep Ricky useful, but don't tell me Ricky is his kind of PG when everyone he got in Chicago was pretty much the polar opposite type of player than Ricky. Good coaches can coach up any kind of talent, but that doesn't automatically make that talent a good fit with what the coach would like to do.

[Lipoli390]

I have two comments to make. And I am going to make them.

1) Just because twitter says Thibs is "shopping Rubio" does not make it true. But I will say it suggests Rubio is on the "available for right deal" list, along with everyone else not named KAT, Wiggins and LaVine (and Dunn).

2) If Thibs were to trade Rubio, you can bet he will be obtaining a quality vet PG that could very easily start the season until Dunn is ready to take over the reigns. Trading Rubio does not mean we are committed to a Dunn/Tyus PG tandem...

I think we will see both Rubio and Dunn on the roster to start the season, but I certainly would not bet a large amount of money on it!

Tim -- I think you nailed it. My only tweak is that I don't think Dunn is part of the won't trade list. Here's my sense of how Thibs has players group led for trade purposes:

Group #1: WON'T TRADE UNDER ANY CIRCUMSTANCES

1. KAT - I'm guessing he's the only one who falls entirely into this category.

Group #2: WON'T TRADE UNLESS BLOWN AWAY BY INCREDIBLE OFFER

Thibs would have to get a young potential star in return -- someone he considered a better fit than these two young potential stars (i.e., better shooter, better defender) or someone who Thibs thinks has a better chance of reaching his ceiling than these two.

1. Wiggins
2. LaVine

Group #3: RELUCTANT TO TRADE BUT AVAILABLE FOR THE RIGHT OFFER

Apparently, Thibs has always liked Gorgui based on reports that he wanted the Bulls to draft Gorgui and was really pissed when they didn't. I'll add that Gorgui seems like Thibs' kind of player -- great worth ethic, mentally tough, smart, good passer/unselfish, plays hard on both sides of the ball. He's also a 2-way player. Although not a great defender, he blocks shots, get steals and works hard on the defensive end. Ricky is a proven PG and still young. And again, he has those core characteristics that Thibs likes -- smart, mentally tough, defensive-oriented, unselfish and team-oriented. He's also a two-way player. How many times have we heard Thibs say since he got here that he wants players who play for the team and for each other. That's Ricky to a T. Thibs clearly likes Dunn who has all the core attributes Thibs likes.

On the other hand, both Gorgui and Ricky have flaws in their games and there might be better fits so Thibs is probably all ears for offers that he thinks would upgrade the overall performance of the team. I suspect he's received a lot of calls and proposals for both these guys as well as Dunn and obviously he's turned them down to date.

1. Gorgui
2. Ricky
3. Dunn

Group #4: WILLING TO TRADE FOR THE RIGHT OFFER

This category is different from the previous one in a subtle but important way. I think these guys are good enough that Thibs values them, but they don't necessarily have all the core attributes Thibs wants.

1. Bazz -- Plays hard and tough-minded, but not the sort of unselfish/share-the-ball kind of player Thibs likes and not a 2-way player. His lack of lateral quickness casts doubt on whether he can ever be a good defender.

2. Belly -- I'm sure Thibs likes his shooting potential. Belly can also rebound and he's also a good and very willing passer. But mental toughness and defense - i.e., 2-way play are a couple question marks. Overall, he seems like a someone Thibs would view as a quality player who adds value to the roster but who should be available to bring in someone better. Since we need shooters I don't see Thibs moving him this summer unless we get a good shooter in return or a couple good shooters in free agency.

Group #5: BEING SHOPPED

1. Tyus Jones - There's a reason Thibs brought in 20 PGs for workouts leading up to the draft.
2. Payne -- No need for explanation here
3. Pek -- Again, no need to explain

[Lipoli390]

Khans - You're assuming Thibs is tied to one style of play. Thibs has said over and over again that you have to adapt your style to the players you have. He had Rose and built his offense around Rose's strengths. It's that simple.

It's Thibs' core values that remain constant and tell us he's not lying when he says he likes Ricky. Thibs core values are defense, toughness, intelligence, unselfishness and sharing the ball. Rubio is an A player in all those categories.

Again, it's not that Thibs would refuse to trade him. It's just silly to think Thibs would actively shop him without first securing an adequate replacement. Thibs didn't have Dunn until Thursday night and Thibs us too smart to assume that a guy who's never played an NBA game will be better that Ricky in his first season or good enough to take this team to the playoffs.

Coaches change their style for the players they have, but that doesn't change who they believe will be the best players for the way they like to play. Adelman threw out most of his offense when he was here because Ricky isn't the type of PG who can be good in a Princeton offense. That doesn't mean Ricky was the type of PG he preferred to have. Thibs was a scoring PG whisperer in Chicago. I'm sure he can change some stuff to keep Ricky useful, but don't tell me Ricky is his kind of PG when everyone he got in Chicago was pretty much the polar opposite type of player than Ricky. Good coaches can coach up any kind of talent, but that doesn't automatically make that talent a good fit with what the coach would like to do.

Kahns - We just disagree on this. Thibs was head coach, not GM, in Chicago. In fact, what we've learned is that Chicago's front office didn't give much if any credence to what Thibs wanted when it came to player acquisition/drafting. Thibs has repeatedly mentioned his core values -- intelligence, drive, mental toughness, competitiveness, unselfishness - when talking about evaluating players. Those are the things he's mentioned over and over again. And we know from Thibs' track record throughout his career -- well beyond his tenure in Chicago -- that he puts a huge premium on defense. Ricky lines up squarely with all those core values. Again, it doesn't mean Thibs won't trade him. I'm not saying that. But it does cast serious doubt (to say the least) on the suggestion that Thibs is shopping him. We'll just have to agree to disagree on this.

[Coolbreeze44]

I think we're getting into semantics here. "Shopping" him is probably too strong of a term. I don't think he's going to just give him away to the highest bidder just for the sake of moving on from him. But I DO think he is more than willing to include Ricky's name in trade conversation. Based on the intel I've gleaned I don't think that's a stretch at all.

[Monster]

I have two comments to make. And I am going to make them.

1) Just because twitter says Thibs is "shopping Rubio" does not make it true. But I will say it suggests Rubio is on the "available for right deal" list, along with everyone else not named KAT, Wiggins and LaVine (and Dunn).

2) If Thibs were to trade Rubio, you can bet he will be obtaining a quality vet PG that could very easily start the season until Dunn is ready to take over the reigns. Trading Rubio does not mean we are committed to a Dunn/Tyus PG tandem...

I think we will see both Rubio and Dunn on the roster to start the season, but I certainly would not bet a large amount of money on it!

Tim -- I think you nailed it. My only tweak is that I don't think Dunn is part of the won't trade list. Here's my sense of how Thibs has players group led for trade purposes:

Group #1: WON'T TRADE UNDER ANY CIRCUMSTANCES

1. KAT - I'm guessing he's the only one who falls entirely into this category.

Group #2: WON'T TRADE UNLESS BLOWN AWAY BY INCREDIBLE OFFER

Thibs would have to get a young potential star in return -- someone he considered a better fit than these two young potential stars (i.e., better shooter, better defender) or someone who Thibs thinks has a better chance of reaching his ceiling than these two.

1. Wiggins
2. LaVine

Group #3: RELUCTANT TO TRADE BUT AVAILABLE FOR THE RIGHT OFFER

Apparently, Thibs has always liked Gorgui based on reports that he wanted the Bulls to draft Gorgui and was really pissed when they didn't. I'll add that Gorgui seems like Thibs' kind of player -- great worth ethic, mentally tough, smart, good passer/unselfish, plays hard on both sides of the ball. He's also a 2-way player. Although not a great defender, he blocks shots, get steals and works hard on the defensive end. Ricky is a proven PG and still young. And again, he has those core characteristics that Thibs likes -- smart, mentally tough, defensive-oriented, unselfish and team-oriented. He's also a two-way player. How many times have we heard Thibs say since he got here that he wants players who play for the team and for each other. That's Ricky to a T. Thibs clearly likes Dunn who has all the core attributes Thibs likes.

On the other hand, both Gorgui and Ricky have flaws in their games and there might be better fits so Thibs is probably all ears for offers that he thinks would upgrade the overall performance of the team. I suspect he's received a lot of calls and proposals for both these guys as well as Dunn and obviously he's turned them down to date.

1. Gorgui
2. Ricky
3. Dunn

Group #4: WILLING TO TRADE FOR THE RIGHT OFFER

This category is different from the previous one in a subtle but important way. I think these guys are good enough that Thibs values them, but they don't necessarily have all the core attributes Thibs wants.

1. Bazz -- Plays hard and tough-minded, but not the sort of unselfish/share-the-ball kind of player Thibs likes and not a 2-way player. His lack of lateral quickness casts doubt on whether he can ever be a good defender.

2. Belly -- I'm sure Thibs likes his shooting potential. Belly can also rebound and he's also a good and very willing passer. But mental toughness and defense - i.e., 2-way play are a couple question marks. Overall, he seems like a someone Thibs would view as a quality player who adds value to the roster but who should be available to bring in someone better. Since we need shooters I don't see Thibs moving him this summer unless we get a good shooter in return or a couple good shooters in free agency.

Group #5: BEING SHOPPED

1. Tyus Jones - There's a reason Thibs brought in 20 PGs for workouts leading up to the draft.
2. Payne -- No need for explanation here
3. Pek -- Again, no need to explain

Lip I agree with everything except I will have you consider this. Before the Wolves drafted Dunn who did the Wolves have at PG? Rubio and Tyus. Layden stressed after getting Dunn how hard it is to get a good PG. obviously they value that position (some of this could also be confirmation bias but we will take them at least somewhat at their word). Well all know the depth at PG in the game (from the top of the NBA down to guys that can't get in) right now. It seemed like reasonable due dillangence to bring in those PGs. It's not out of the realm of possibility you can get a hidden gem there and maybe they would have looked to do that if Dunn wouldn't have been available. Again think about how Thibs has been able to get a a lot out of PGs when he was with the Bulls. It seems he values that position a lot.

[khans2k5 [enjin:6608728]]

I don't see them together. Neither one is a good enough shooter. Holding off on moving Rubio until he's outplayed by Dunn would hurt his value.

That's not to say he will get outplayed...

This. We made our choice to not draft one of the best shooters. Now we have glaring needs in terms of shooting and a big to split time with KAT and Gorgui. The move now is to trade Ricky to bolster at least one of those areas. I've said from the beginning that the problem with Dunn and Ricky was their redundancy. So that's where we are today.

And there wouldn't have been any redundancy by drafting Murray or Hield with Zach on the team? Let's see. All pure SG's. All good catch and shoot guys. All questionable defensively. 2 have good handles and Hield is TBD. Would you be saying the same thing with Lavine had we drafted Hield or Murray?

[SameOldNudityDrew]

I don't see them together. Neither one is a good enough shooter. Holding off on moving Rubio until he's outplayed by Dunn would hurt his value.

That's not to say he will get outplayed...

This. We made our choice to not draft one of the best shooters. Now we have glaring needs in terms of shooting and a big to split time with KAT and Gorgui. The move now is to trade Ricky to bolster at least one of those areas. I've said from the beginning that the problem with Dunn and Ricky was their redundancy. So that's where we are today.

And there wouldn't have been any redundancy by drafting Murray or Hield with Zach on the team? Let's see. All pure SG's. All good catch and shoot guys. All questionable defensively. 2 have good handles and Hield is TBD. Would you be saying the same thing with Lavine had we drafted Hield or Murray?

That's not the way I would have put it, Khans, but I think you're right that if we had taken Hield (who I wanted basically equally with Dunn), we would be having very similar conversation threads right now about LaVine and Hield. That doesn't discredit the concerns, but just highlights that the best players to take at #5 were all (Murray included) going to raise these kinds of discussions about Rubio or LaVine. We have potential depth at the 1 and 2 now. This is a new (good) thing for us as Wolves fans.

[Lipoli390]

I agree, Drew. A 29-win team of young players who have yet to play a single game under a new head coach shouldn't worry too much about redundancy. Instead, that team (the Wolves) should simply focus on adding talent. That's what Flip was doing and that what Thibs did on draft night. Now Thibs and Scott will add more talent through free agency. Then Thibs will start working on making our players from last season better while he also blends in the new. The end result should be a much better team that finally has some much-needed depth.