PorkChop wrote:Does anyone here wish they had made more of a push for a bigger FA ? Putting aside the financial implications down the road who would've made this team most competitive? Besides Durant.
At least I'm happy that they didn't spend more. Looking back last summer, it seems that many teams in west have handicapped themselves badly by giving ridiculous contracts to marginal players.
How it would feel to owe average of 34 millions per year for still three more years to Luol Deng and Mozgov?
Or 47 millions for three more years to Crabbe, Meyers Leonard and Evan Turner?
Or 56 millions for three/four more years to Parsons and Conley? I know that both are good when healthy but I'm not sure if they can keep Zach Randolph in next summer with that much money used for those two players.
Even 32 millions per year for three more years to Solomon Hill, Asik and E'Twaun Moore looks really stupid now.
.....but at some point we probably need to shell out some big $ for someone. I guess it's all in the timing, because you don't want to do it until you feel like you need just one or two more pieces to complete your team. This was a year of evaluation for Thibs and to really feature the young guys and see how far they could take us without significant veteran help. I he tried to lure a few vets here, but he wasn't going to pay the asking price.
We still have a little less than a half-season to go, but I guess the question that needs to be answered is whether we feel it's worth going big this offseason for a free agent (e.g. Milsap) and can we create the cap flexibility to do so?
khans2k5 wrote:The bigger FA's that would have been even close to what they were getting paid weren't coming here. We wouldn't have gotten a meeting with Horford or Durant. Those players don't want to go to a bad team that they have no previous ties with to play with a bunch of kids. So you are looking at a Harrison Barnes level of guy who got a max deal and isn't worth near that much money. I don't think we had nearly the options we'd like to believe we had to improve the team and the options we did have were back to overpaying to get guys here which we could only afford for a shorter deal length that not many decent sized pickups took last summer. Years and money went flying last summer and we couldn't afford to do either if the guy was gonna be an overpaid role player. We're a bad team. "Just sign them in the off season" doesn't work for us yet.
The one thing about Barnes... he actually turned out pretty damn good in Year 1. Better than almost anybody predicted:
20.2 ppg / 5.3 reb / 47.3% fg
But there's more. Dallas is thin up front. So Barnes is playing PF defensively. Big deal? Consider how unwilling other guys have been in the past. LeBron James resisted it for a long time. Carmelo Anthony continues to refuse it even though it would help his team win games. Both are bigger/stronger than Barnes.
I give Barnes credit for taking that beating night after night because it's best for the team. That level of production + level of sacrifice for the team + all the big contracts for only slightly less money last summer that have been busts = I don't think we can rip on his contract nearly as much.
Barnes has done an admirable job in Dallas, but he's not a big-time needle mover. He is a decent volume scorer that doesn't do a ton else very well. He reminds me of Wiggins to a degree, but I think Wiggins will be better at the equivalent stage of his career (Year 5).
Barnes, DeRozan, Wiggins, Gay......I kind of put them all in a similar category. Again, Wiggins is younger and less experienced than all these guys, so hopefully he breaks through to the next level, but right now these are his comparables in my opinion.
khans2k5 wrote:The bigger FA's that would have been even close to what they were getting paid weren't coming here. We wouldn't have gotten a meeting with Horford or Durant. Those players don't want to go to a bad team that they have no previous ties with to play with a bunch of kids. So you are looking at a Harrison Barnes level of guy who got a max deal and isn't worth near that much money. I don't think we had nearly the options we'd like to believe we had to improve the team and the options we did have were back to overpaying to get guys here which we could only afford for a shorter deal length that not many decent sized pickups took last summer. Years and money went flying last summer and we couldn't afford to do either if the guy was gonna be an overpaid role player. We're a bad team. "Just sign them in the off season" doesn't work for us yet.
The one thing about Barnes... he actually turned out pretty damn good in Year 1. Better than almost anybody predicted:
20.2 ppg / 5.3 reb / 47.3% fg
But there's more. Dallas is thin up front. So Barnes is playing PF defensively. Big deal? Consider how unwilling other guys have been in the past. LeBron James resisted it for a long time. Carmelo Anthony continues to refuse it even though it would help his team win games. Both are bigger/stronger than Barnes.
I give Barnes credit for taking that beating night after night because it's best for the team. That level of production + level of sacrifice for the team + all the big contracts for only slightly less money last summer that have been busts = I don't think we can rip on his contract nearly as much.
Barnes has done an admirable job in Dallas, but he's not a big-time needle mover. He is a decent volume scorer that doesn't do a ton else very well. He reminds me of Wiggins to a degree, but I think Wiggins will be better at the equivalent stage of his career (Year 5).
Barnes, DeRozan, Wiggins, Gay......I kind of put them all in a similar category. Again, Wiggins is younger and less experienced than all these guys, so hopefully he breaks through to the next level, but right now these are his comparables in my opinion.
Say what you want (I think Abe nailed it) but I bet there are a number of teams that wish they had ponied up the max deal for Barnes last summer.
PorkChop wrote:Does anyone here wish they had made more of a push for a bigger FA ? Putting aside the financial implications down the road who would've made this team most competitive? Besides Durant.
At least I'm happy that they didn't spend more. Looking back last summer, it seems that many teams in west have handicapped themselves badly by giving ridiculous contracts to marginal players.
How it would feel to owe average of 34 millions per year for still three more years to Luol Deng and Mozgov?
Or 47 millions for three more years to Crabbe, Meyers Leonard and Evan Turner?
Or 56 millions for three/four more years to Parsons and Conley? I know that both are good when healthy but I'm not sure if they can keep Zach Randolph in next summer with that much money used for those two players.
Even 32 millions per year for three more years to Solomon Hill, Asik and E'Twaun Moore looks really stupid now.
.....but at some point we probably need to shell out some big $ for someone. I guess it's all in the timing, because you don't want to do it until you feel like you need just one or two more pieces to complete your team. This was a year of evaluation for Thibs and to really feature the young guys and see how far they could take us without significant veteran help. I he tried to lure a few vets here, but he wasn't going to pay the asking price.
We still have a little less than a half-season to go, but I guess the question that needs to be answered is whether we feel it's worth going big this offseason for a free agent (e.g. Milsap) and can we create the cap flexibility to do so?
The good front offices are able to target good players (relatively speaking) and get them for value and sometimes bargain deals. Then when you get to contender status you can sign the David Lee and David West etc type players for next to nothing. I don't know if the Wolves have to shell out big dollars (max or near max contracts) to improve a lot this summer. It really depends on the market and who you can get to consider coming here and what other teams offer.
Having said that the mid-level is jumping up to over 8 million next offseason. That's going to make some of the deals that were mentioned above look...less probabmatic maybe. I saw yesterday that the Celtics have signed a deal to have an advertising patch on their jerseys. That's another form of revenue that is going to keep the $$$ going upward. The sooner you can lock in your guys the better and with the new CBA guys have a lot of financial reason to stick with the same team...or be traded. Teams are gonna spend money this offseason and the Wolves may spend some too but they may Hold off to a certain extent if things don't work out the way they want them too. Like you said Q we will see how this season ends up. A few weeks ago pretty much nobody was thinking about keeping Bazz around and...now it's at least worth considering if he keeps playing pretty well.
Barnes has been much better than I expected, especially his FG%. But they are going to suffer if he becomes the full-time PF and only pulls down 5.3 reb. That's like Dante Cunningham with higher usage.
Wile E Coyote wrote:Barnes has been much better than I expected, especially his FG%. But they are going to suffer if he becomes the full-time PF and only pulls down 5.3 reb. That's like Dante Cunningham with higher usage.
Sure. But I think that's sort of besides the point. He's not a good PF... it's that he's Dallas best PF right now. His willingness to sacrifice himself for the good of the team seems even more rare when it's a guy who just signed a huge contract. It might show that he didn't let it get to his head and that he really wants to be in Dallas and do whatever is necessary to help the team. Kind of refreshing.
khans2k5 wrote:The bigger FA's that would have been even close to what they were getting paid weren't coming here. We wouldn't have gotten a meeting with Horford or Durant. Those players don't want to go to a bad team that they have no previous ties with to play with a bunch of kids. So you are looking at a Harrison Barnes level of guy who got a max deal and isn't worth near that much money. I don't think we had nearly the options we'd like to believe we had to improve the team and the options we did have were back to overpaying to get guys here which we could only afford for a shorter deal length that not many decent sized pickups took last summer. Years and money went flying last summer and we couldn't afford to do either if the guy was gonna be an overpaid role player. We're a bad team. "Just sign them in the off season" doesn't work for us yet.
The one thing about Barnes... he actually turned out pretty damn good in Year 1. Better than almost anybody predicted:
20.2 ppg / 5.3 reb / 47.3% fg
But there's more. Dallas is thin up front. So Barnes is playing PF defensively. Big deal? Consider how unwilling other guys have been in the past. LeBron James resisted it for a long time. Carmelo Anthony continues to refuse it even though it would help his team win games. Both are bigger/stronger than Barnes.
I give Barnes credit for taking that beating night after night because it's best for the team. That level of production + level of sacrifice for the team + all the big contracts for only slightly less money last summer that have been busts = I don't think we can rip on his contract nearly as much.
Barnes has done an admirable job in Dallas, but he's not a big-time needle mover. He is a decent volume scorer that doesn't do a ton else very well. He reminds me of Wiggins to a degree, but I think Wiggins will be better at the equivalent stage of his career (Year 5).
Barnes, DeRozan, Wiggins, Gay......I kind of put them all in a similar category. Again, Wiggins is younger and less experienced than all these guys, so hopefully he breaks through to the next level, but right now these are his comparables in my opinion.
Say what you want (I think Abe nailed it) but I bet there are a number of teams that wish they had ponied up the max deal for Barnes last summer.
Perhaps, but I'm not sure why. Dallas is now stuck with a max player that should not be a #1 or even #2 option on a playoff-caliber team. Again, he has not moved the needle for them.
I don't want to come across as a Barnes apologist here (because I agree with you about his limitations), but each team is different. Dallas is in a weird position. Dirk is old. And the team doesn't have much for assets. But it had space to sign Barnes.
Maybe they looked at him as a stopgap transition from the Dirk era to the next one without having to plummet to the very bottom? Maybe his signing appeased Dirk to stick around with a bad team as they rebuild? I think Dallas is in such a different place than the Wolves that we have to consider what Barnes means to THEM specifically, instead of thinking about what he could do here.
Abe, I've always admired Cuban and Carlisle because it seems like for the past 4 or 5 offseasons, Dallas was on the precipice of falling off a cliff. Yet they always were able to patch together a team and field a competitive squad by the time the season got going. Impressive.
But I think this was the offseason to finally throw in the towel. Dirk knows darn well that the team didn''t have the horses to compete in the West and Harrison Barnes was not going to change that.
I don't want to come across as a Barnes apologist here (because I agree with you about his limitations), but each team is different. Dallas is in a weird position. Dirk is old. And the team doesn't have much for assets. But it had space to sign Barnes.
Maybe they looked at him as a stopgap transition from the Dirk era to the next one without having to plummet to the very bottom? Maybe his signing appeased Dirk to stick around with a bad team as they rebuild? I think Dallas is in such a different place than the Wolves that we have to consider what Barnes means to THEM specifically, instead of thinking about what he could do here.
Make sense?
During one of the Dallas Wolves games they were saying how Carlisle absolutely raves about Barnes saying he is one of his favorite players he has ever coached. He said he is maybe the hardest worker he has been around and he mentioned some other impressive players he has played with and coached. I absolutely think the Mavs consider Barnes a significant piece towards what are doing. I think they are THRILLED to have him at his price. Is he THE GUY for that team? No probably not but it sure is nice to have a pretty good 24 year old player locked up for the next few years when you don't have any other top tier talents...yet.
