GDT: Wolves B Team vs the Thunder's A Team

[kekgeek]

I thought it was actually Dunn's best game yet despite his minus 19 in 27 minutes. He's still forcing too many shots (only making about 22% of his shots this preseason), but at least he protected the basketball well tonight. The offense just flows so much better when Jones is at the point, and he was a plus 3 in his 20 minutes. I wish Thibs would pair Jones and Dunn together, but he doesn't seem inclined too.

LST you keep saying this but neither is a 2-guard. And your Dwayne Wade-Dunn comparisons don't make any sense. What makes you think this would be a good idea?

Cool, there's a lot I like about Dunn as a basketball player, but based on what I saw of him in college and so far with the Wolves, he doesn't seem like a natural point guard to me. And meanwhile we have a 20-year-old PG in Tyus Jones who is a natural at that position, has always been a winner, and seems to get better every time he gets on the court. Tonight was the first opportunity we have had to see them alternating at PG, and I think everyone saw who the superior PG is...the offense flows so much better with him at the point. And the plus/minus wasn't even close. But Dunn is a terrific athlete and a gritty competitor, so I want him in his best role...and right now that looks like SG to me. I know you don't like the Wade comparison, but I see so many similarities...similar size, able to put the ball on the floor and get to the basket, but only average at best outside shooters.

The biggest flaw in my argument is defense. Tyus is bigger this year and looked fine on D tonight, but his defensive ceiling is not very high, and I suspect that is why Thibs has Dunn ahead of him at PG. A few more nights like tonight may change his mind though. Having a competent PG backing up Ricky is a key to our success this season. It would be great if Dunn turns out to be that guy, but he has a long way to go.

My thing is if we want to make the playoffs I think it would be dumb to play Dunn and Tyus together. First off spacing if we put tyus in someone comes out and I am guessing that would be rush (based on the fact shabazz rested). The second unit would look like.

Tyus (average shooter and I am being kind based off his 3pt numbers last year)

Dunn (below average shooter)

Shabazz (below average shooter)

Belly (solid shooter)

Aldrich (non threat)

So the lane will be very clogged. Also we would be asking Dunn to gaurd sg the whole time because tyus wouldn't stand a chance. So Dunn will be guarding bigger players the whole time and that could eliminate Dunn defensive potential.

We would also be asking Dunn to do something he hasn't done and play off the ball.

I disagree with your wade comp. Wade was a SG out of Marquette, he is an elite mid range shooter and elite cutter. Something we don't know if Dunn can do.

If the goal is playoffs Rush needs to play over both tyus and Dunn. Now if we are trying to continue to develop for next year/fall out of the race I can see that combo but just think it would be dumb to play a rookie out of position and a undersized second year pg for a 3 pt championship experienced player in rush

[Monster]

One thing we should probably keep in mind about Dunn tonight was he was going up against one of the best players in the entire league and going up against the starters of what could be aplayoff team this year. He was playing with backups and didn't have Bazz there to dump the ball to for better wor worse. That's a tall order. Remember last year Tuys first game was going up against Westbrook and of course it was brutal. So maybe LST saying this was Dunn's best game may be right. He looked about the same but turned the ball over less but against better competition with less help.

Also did anyone else find it interesting Bazz got the night off in addition to the starters?

[kekgeek]

I thought it was actually Dunn's best game yet despite his minus 19 in 27 minutes. He's still forcing too many shots (only making about 22% of his shots this preseason), but at least he protected the basketball well tonight. The offense just flows so much better when Jones is at the point, and he was a plus 3 in his 20 minutes. I wish Thibs would pair Jones and Dunn together, but he doesn't seem inclined too.

LST you keep saying this but neither is a 2-guard. And your Dwayne Wade-Dunn comparisons don't make any sense. What makes you think this would be a good idea?

Cool, there's a lot I like about Dunn as a basketball player, but based on what I saw of him in college and so far with the Wolves, he doesn't seem like a natural point guard to me. And meanwhile we have a 20-year-old PG in Tyus Jones who is a natural at that position, has always been a winner, and seems to get better every time he gets on the court. Tonight was the first opportunity we have had to see them alternating at PG, and I think everyone saw who the superior PG is...the offense flows so much better with him at the point. And the plus/minus wasn't even close. But Dunn is a terrific athlete and a gritty competitor, so I want him in his best role...and right now that looks like SG to me. I know you don't like the Wade comparison, but I see so many similarities...similar size, able to put the ball on the floor and get to the basket, but only average at best outside shooters.

The biggest flaw in my argument is defense. Tyus is bigger this year and looked fine on D tonight, but his defensive ceiling is not very high, and I suspect that is why Thibs has Dunn ahead of him at PG. A few more nights like tonight may change his mind though. Having a competent PG backing up Ricky is a key to our success this season. It would be great if Dunn turns out to be that guy, but he has a long way to go.

The problem is one is a near 50% career shooter and the other can't throw it in the garage from his driveway. That is the biggest flaw in your argument.

Look I get it, people want to find a way to get Tyus on the floor. I do too. I would be more than happy to see him get the backup PG minutes. But that plan changed when we drafted Dunn. But until Dunn can at least keep defense's honest with his shot, you can't play him at the 2 and hope to be a net plus player with that 2nd group.

I agree with what you said and I still play Dunn over Tyus this year because Dunn needs to develop if the wolves can compete for a championship one day while Tyus at best is a quality backup pg.

[Monster]

I thought it was actually Dunn's best game yet despite his minus 19 in 27 minutes. He's still forcing too many shots (only making about 22% of his shots this preseason), but at least he protected the basketball well tonight. The offense just flows so much better when Jones is at the point, and he was a plus 3 in his 20 minutes. I wish Thibs would pair Jones and Dunn together, but he doesn't seem inclined too.

LST you keep saying this but neither is a 2-guard. And your Dwayne Wade-Dunn comparisons don't make any sense. What makes you think this would be a good idea?

Cool, there's a lot I like about Dunn as a basketball player, but based on what I saw of him in college and so far with the Wolves, he doesn't seem like a natural point guard to me. And meanwhile we have a 20-year-old PG in Tyus Jones who is a natural at that position, has always been a winner, and seems to get better every time he gets on the court. Tonight was the first opportunity we have had to see them alternating at PG, and I think everyone saw who the superior PG is...the offense flows so much better with him at the point. And the plus/minus wasn't even close. But Dunn is a terrific athlete and a gritty competitor, so I want him in his best role...and right now that looks like SG to me. I know you don't like the Wade comparison, but I see so many similarities...similar size, able to put the ball on the floor and get to the basket, but only average at best outside shooters.

The biggest flaw in my argument is defense. Tyus is bigger this year and looked fine on D tonight, but his defensive ceiling is not very high, and I suspect that is why Thibs has Dunn ahead of him at PG. A few more nights like tonight may change his mind though. Having a competent PG backing up Ricky is a key to our success this season. It would be great if Dunn turns out to be that guy, but he has a long way to go.

My thing is if we want to make the playoffs I think it would be dumb to play Dunn and Tyus together. First off spacing if we put tyus in someone comes out and I am guessing that would be rush (based on the fact shabazz rested). The second unit would look like.

Tyus (average shooter and I am being kind based off his 3pt numbers last year)

Dunn (below average shooter)

Shabazz (below average shooter)

Belly (solid shooter)

Aldrich (non threat)

So the lane will be very clogged. Also we would be asking Dunn to gaurd sg the whole time because tyus wouldn't stand a chance. So Dunn will be guarding bigger players the whole time and that could eliminate Dunn defensive potential.

We would also be asking Dunn to do something he hasn't done and play off the ball.

I disagree with your wade comp. Wade was a SG out of Marquette, he is an elite mid range shooter and elite cutter. Something we don't know if Dunn can do.

If the goal is playoffs Rush needs to play over both tyus and Dunn. Now if we are trying to continue to develop for next year/fall out of the race I can see that combo but just think it would be dumb to play a rookie out of position and a undersized second year pg for a 3 pt championship experienced player in rush

Good post. I will say that a lot of teams have combo guard backcourts off the bench so playing Dunn defensively at "SG" or as one of the guards or however you look at it COULD still be an advantage. In theory Dunn as a young player could help on that end to help make up for what he doesn't give you offensively. We will see if that's actually the case though. Ultimately it's about getting your best players on the court. Hopefully Dunn is playing well enough to get minutes and guys are doing so well Thibs has a hard time finding minutes for everyone. :) I know that's not going to happen though.

[Mstermisty [enjin:6864008]]

Dunn has looked shaky so far but that's somewhat to be expected at the toughest position on the court. Also guys who have a huge athletic advantage in college sometimes get off to a rough start when they find that playing field more leveled. He just needs to keep playing and the game will hopefully slow down a bit for him sooner than later. That said Tyus is showing he is capable of being the backup. In fact, if Ricky has an early season injury I could see Tyus being made the starter.

[kekgeek]

I thought it was actually Dunn's best game yet despite his minus 19 in 27 minutes. He's still forcing too many shots (only making about 22% of his shots this preseason), but at least he protected the basketball well tonight. The offense just flows so much better when Jones is at the point, and he was a plus 3 in his 20 minutes. I wish Thibs would pair Jones and Dunn together, but he doesn't seem inclined too.

LST you keep saying this but neither is a 2-guard. And your Dwayne Wade-Dunn comparisons don't make any sense. What makes you think this would be a good idea?

Cool, there's a lot I like about Dunn as a basketball player, but based on what I saw of him in college and so far with the Wolves, he doesn't seem like a natural point guard to me. And meanwhile we have a 20-year-old PG in Tyus Jones who is a natural at that position, has always been a winner, and seems to get better every time he gets on the court. Tonight was the first opportunity we have had to see them alternating at PG, and I think everyone saw who the superior PG is...the offense flows so much better with him at the point. And the plus/minus wasn't even close. But Dunn is a terrific athlete and a gritty competitor, so I want him in his best role...and right now that looks like SG to me. I know you don't like the Wade comparison, but I see so many similarities...similar size, able to put the ball on the floor and get to the basket, but only average at best outside shooters.

The biggest flaw in my argument is defense. Tyus is bigger this year and looked fine on D tonight, but his defensive ceiling is not very high, and I suspect that is why Thibs has Dunn ahead of him at PG. A few more nights like tonight may change his mind though. Having a competent PG backing up Ricky is a key to our success this season. It would be great if Dunn turns out to be that guy, but he has a long way to go.

My thing is if we want to make the playoffs I think it would be dumb to play Dunn and Tyus together. First off spacing if we put tyus in someone comes out and I am guessing that would be rush (based on the fact shabazz rested). The second unit would look like.

Tyus (average shooter and I am being kind based off his 3pt numbers last year)

Dunn (below average shooter)

Shabazz (below average shooter)

Belly (solid shooter)

Aldrich (non threat)

So the lane will be very clogged. Also we would be asking Dunn to gaurd sg the whole time because tyus wouldn't stand a chance. So Dunn will be guarding bigger players the whole time and that could eliminate Dunn defensive potential.

We would also be asking Dunn to do something he hasn't done and play off the ball.

I disagree with your wade comp. Wade was a SG out of Marquette, he is an elite mid range shooter and elite cutter. Something we don't know if Dunn can do.

If the goal is playoffs Rush needs to play over both tyus and Dunn. Now if we are trying to continue to develop for next year/fall out of the race I can see that combo but just think it would be dumb to play a rookie out of position and a undersized second year pg for a 3 pt championship experienced player in rush

Good post. I will say that a lot of teams have combo guard backcourts off the bench so playing Dunn defensively at "SG" or as one of the guards or however you look at it COULD still be an advantage. In theory Dunn as a young player could help on that end to help make up for what he doesn't give you offensively. We will see if that's actually the case though. Ultimately it's about getting your best players on the court. Hopefully Dunn is playing well enough to get minutes and guys are doing so well Thibs has a hard time finding minutes for everyone. :) I know that's not going to happen though.

I agree just my opinion that we should play to our rookies strengths. So Dunn potential strengths as a rookie are drive and score/kick, defense and bully ball to some extent. So taking him off the ball hinders his dribble drive potential. He would have to guard sg so potentially he would guard bigger played/he can't be the pest on defense to the primary ball handler. Finally bully ball, Dunn is a bigger gaurd in mass so instead of taking advantage if Cameron payne for example a bigger player in roberson would gaurd him. Instead of jj Barea guarding him jason Anderson is for example. I just think playing Dunn off the ball hinders his strengths that he could bring to a potential playoff team and that subtraction out weights the addition of tyus abilities

[Monster]

I thought it was actually Dunn's best game yet despite his minus 19 in 27 minutes. He's still forcing too many shots (only making about 22% of his shots this preseason), but at least he protected the basketball well tonight. The offense just flows so much better when Jones is at the point, and he was a plus 3 in his 20 minutes. I wish Thibs would pair Jones and Dunn together, but he doesn't seem inclined too.

LST you keep saying this but neither is a 2-guard. And your Dwayne Wade-Dunn comparisons don't make any sense. What makes you think this would be a good idea?

Cool, there's a lot I like about Dunn as a basketball player, but based on what I saw of him in college and so far with the Wolves, he doesn't seem like a natural point guard to me. And meanwhile we have a 20-year-old PG in Tyus Jones who is a natural at that position, has always been a winner, and seems to get better every time he gets on the court. Tonight was the first opportunity we have had to see them alternating at PG, and I think everyone saw who the superior PG is...the offense flows so much better with him at the point. And the plus/minus wasn't even close. But Dunn is a terrific athlete and a gritty competitor, so I want him in his best role...and right now that looks like SG to me. I know you don't like the Wade comparison, but I see so many similarities...similar size, able to put the ball on the floor and get to the basket, but only average at best outside shooters.

The biggest flaw in my argument is defense. Tyus is bigger this year and looked fine on D tonight, but his defensive ceiling is not very high, and I suspect that is why Thibs has Dunn ahead of him at PG. A few more nights like tonight may change his mind though. Having a competent PG backing up Ricky is a key to our success this season. It would be great if Dunn turns out to be that guy, but he has a long way to go.

My thing is if we want to make the playoffs I think it would be dumb to play Dunn and Tyus together. First off spacing if we put tyus in someone comes out and I am guessing that would be rush (based on the fact shabazz rested). The second unit would look like.

Tyus (average shooter and I am being kind based off his 3pt numbers last year)

Dunn (below average shooter)

Shabazz (below average shooter)

Belly (solid shooter)

Aldrich (non threat)

So the lane will be very clogged. Also we would be asking Dunn to gaurd sg the whole time because tyus wouldn't stand a chance. So Dunn will be guarding bigger players the whole time and that could eliminate Dunn defensive potential.

We would also be asking Dunn to do something he hasn't done and play off the ball.

I disagree with your wade comp. Wade was a SG out of Marquette, he is an elite mid range shooter and elite cutter. Something we don't know if Dunn can do.

If the goal is playoffs Rush needs to play over both tyus and Dunn. Now if we are trying to continue to develop for next year/fall out of the race I can see that combo but just think it would be dumb to play a rookie out of position and a undersized second year pg for a 3 pt championship experienced player in rush

Good post. I will say that a lot of teams have combo guard backcourts off the bench so playing Dunn defensively at "SG" or as one of the guards or however you look at it COULD still be an advantage. In theory Dunn as a young player could help on that end to help make up for what he doesn't give you offensively. We will see if that's actually the case though. Ultimately it's about getting your best players on the court. Hopefully Dunn is playing well enough to get minutes and guys are doing so well Thibs has a hard time finding minutes for everyone. :) I know that's not going to happen though.

I agree just my opinion that we should play to our rookies strengths. So Dunn potential strengths as a rookie are drive and score/kick, defense and bully ball to some extent. So taking him off the ball hinders his dribble drive potential. He would have to guard sg so potentially he would guard bigger played/he can't be the pest on defense to the primary ball handler. Finally bully ball, Dunn is a bigger gaurd in mass so instead of taking advantage if Cameron payne for example a bigger player in roberson would gaurd him. Instead of jj Barea guarding him jason Anderson is for example. I just think playing Dunn off the ball hinders his strengths that he could bring to a potential playoff team and that subtraction out weights the addition of tyus abilities

Well said. The reality is that if Lavine is playing well and healthy there won't be many minutes left at SG. I think Bazz will get some of his minutes there too if healthy (since it looks at this point Thibs is gonna play him) so Dunn playing off the ball seems like a rare occasion or sort of a gimmick thing right now because of a minutes crunch even if that was something a person was advocating for.

[TeamRicky [enjin:6648771]]

I want to see Tyus and Dunn play together on the second unit.

Again why? What do you expect to happen? Who plays off the ball?

Of course Dunn plays off the ball. He's the combo guard. The whole point is I want to see how well they can play together, so it doesn't matter what I expect. Maybe, Tyus can mesh better with the second unit than Bazz or Rush. We won't know unless they try it.

[Q12543 [enjin:6621299]]

Interesting debate.....I'm not sure anyone other than LST is advocating that Dunn become a full-time SG. The question is whether it makes sense sometimes to play two PGs in the back court, with Dunn being the "shooting guard" simply because he has the size to guard the other team's 2 (which isn't always a true 2 by the way, which I'll talk about next).

If Phoenix, for example, trots out Bledsoe and Brandon Knight (coming off the bench) as their back court, that is not exactly a great match up for us since our current bench wings are both natural 3's. Assuming Dunn checks Beldsoe, who checks Knight? Bazz or Rush would be targeted and I don't think either could hang with Knight. This might be a situation where we go smaller and pair up Rubio or Jones with Dunn.

Also, when it comes to shooting, what is the difference between a Dunn-Bazz-Rush perimeter trio and a Rubio-Dunn-Rush perimeter trio? Not much. Bazz isn't exactly a lights-out shooter from outside and prefers to do most of his work in the paint.

I do think Dunn deserves the benefit of the doubt for now as our clear #2 PG. But that doesn't mean there aren't situational matchups where he is paired with another PG for stretches.

[longstrangetrip [enjin:6600564]]

I'm not advocating for Dunn to be a full-time SG, Q...I'm merely saying that at the moment (based on his college career and limited pro experience) I have concerns about Dunn's game being suited for an NBA PG role. As many have pointed out, A:TO ratio is a good indicator of PG success, and Dunn was subpar throughout his college career and (other than last night, when he was still a minus 29) with the Wolves. Playing him at PG buries a natural PG with a winning pedigree on the bench. I like Brandon Rush too, but I don't see him as a long-time contributor to this team and would rather see his minutes go to Tyus...he's only 20 and seems to be getting more comfortable every time out. Thibs should absolutely continue to give Dunn a chance at PG...just as Flip and Sam did with Zach. In fact, trying him at PG will eventually help his development even if he ends up a 2. But I want Thibs to keep an open mind about pairing Tyus and Dunn together, especially in preseason, because that may turn out to be where they end up...as the backup backcourt. Last night was a perfect time to try it out because Thibs could have paired Tyus/Kris and Lucas/Rush. I was disappointed that he instead played Lucas at SG.

As for my suggestion that a (very high) ceiling for Dunn is Dwyane Wade, I get your point that Wade was mostly a SG in college and Dunn a PG. But if you remember that Marquette team, Wade handled the anyone else (remember his triple double against Kentucky in the tournament?) and there was a lot of discussion about whether he would be a PG or SG in the NBA. And there really wasn't much difference in their shooting ability in college. Yes, Wade has developed into a good mid-range shooter, but he was streaky like Dunn in college, and got most of his points like Kris did...by beating his man and finishing at the basket. And while I understand the point about Dunn's poor 3-point shooting hurting the spacing on a second unit, Miami won a championship with a Chalmers at PG (I would argue that Tyus will be a better 3-point shooter than Mario) and Wade at "shooting guard" with his 28% 3-point rate. There are a lot of ways to run an offense, and Miami was just fine despite starting a team that didn't space the floor well.

Where Dunn belongs is an interesting discussion, but it's probably a moot point because last night Thibs showed us that he prefers Lucas at SG to Dunn...bizarre to me, but he sees these guys everyday in practice, so I'll defer to his judgement.