Game Report - Preseason Wolves v. Griz

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bleedspeed
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Re: Game Report - Preseason Wolves v. Griz

Post by bleedspeed »

longstrangetrip wrote:

To the best of my knowledge, bleed, last night was his first appearance at SG. He had some minutes in previous games where Thibs paired him with Lucas, but oddly it was clear that he was the PG and Lucas the SG. The Tyus/Kris pairing last night was a failure, but I hope Thibs tries it again because I still think it has some potential.


I was hoping to see that lineup since it seemed to help Dunn in SL.
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Monster
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Re: Game Report - Preseason Wolves v. Griz

Post by Monster »

longstrangetrip wrote:Good report, Lip. I was at the game too and agree with your observations...I suspect the debate kept a few season ticket holders home...there was no problem hearing Thibs all night in the empty arena, although I sometimes need subtitles to understand what he's saying. Gotta love the intensity! The entry way is such an upgrade...they are much more prepared to handle big crowds now. I'm mixed on the scoreboard. My seats are low enough that I have to crane my neck to use the new scoreboard, and I don't think fans in the front 5 rows can use it at all. But the picture is unbelievably clear, and they provide multiple angles on replays...truly state of the art.

I'm one of the biggest Tyus fans on the board, but I would rank his performance equal to Dunn's last night...both were pretty ugly. There was absolutely no offensive flow when either of them was running the point, and Ricky's brilliance merely accentuates how ineffective they were. I expect poor PG play from Kris, but Tyus's performance left me with a sour taste in my mouth after three dominating quarters. I even got what I have been asking for with a Jones/Dunn backcourt pairing, but it was a disaster. I'm not giving up on that concept, but it sure was terrible last night.

My son and I commented on two transformed bodies...Gorgui and Belly. G is much bigger, as you pointed out, although he doesn't seem to have lost any quickness. He had a very efficient offensive game (19 points on 6 shots!), and his defensive brilliance extended far beyond his 4 blocked shots...just a great game. Belly is so much quicker after his 20 pound weight loss in the off season, and also didn't exhibit the hesitancy he did last year...he aggressively attacked the rim and shot whenever he was open (and once or twice when he wasn't!). He didn't shoot well, but his floor game and defense were terrific. His footwork is much improved, and his 3 steals against only 1 foul shows he's getting what NBA defense is all about. I think he is quick enough to keep up with many NBA SFs and was actually surprised Thibs didn't play him at SF with Bazz and Wig out. Instead he decided to give the 49 minutes to Rush, Murry and Butler, and they supplied just 3 rebounds between them...I think Belly is a better option.

Towns played like it was the 7th game of the championship series...so intense the entire game. My son and I were calling for Thibs to take him out because we were both worried about an injury playing the way he was. Getting to the line 17 times was his reward for his aggressiveness, and he made them all!

Some here are giving Dunn/Jones some slack because of the guys that were on the court with them, but I look at it in the opposite way...I felt both PGs were so bad that they dragged down the players on the court with them. Backup PG was a big problem last night, but if Thibs can get either to elevate their game, I'm actually not too worried about the second unit...being able to spell the starters with guys like Belly, Aldrich, Bazz and Rush is pretty comforting.

The final comment I want to make is about the defensive intensity. I was skeptical about how Thibs might improve the defense, but if last night is an example, he has already done a lot to transform them. I wouldn't have liked to be playing against our defense last night...it was hellishly disruptive. Thibs' intensity and constant harassing of the officials can be annoying (and even funny) at times, and I share Lipoli's concern that he might wear out his welcome after a while, but he sure looks like the real deal for this team right now.


The legit worry about Thibs wearing out players with his high intensity reminds me of something JVG said Pat Riley told him after asking him if he had considered becoming an NBA head coach. JVG said he had only been an assistant for a year and Riley was giving him an performance review when he asked JVG if he ever thought about being a head coach someday. JVG said he was taken back and eventually said (can't remember the exact words he said) something about how he wasn't sure he would ever be worthy of that. Riley said something like "If you help players win they will allow you to coach them." If Thibs is giving these guys value making them better and helping them win they will keep buying in. At this point his track record of adding value seems pretty high. Well will see. Part of it is if the top players keep buying in.
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60WinTim
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Re: Game Report - Preseason Wolves v. Griz

Post by 60WinTim »

I would expect more "barking" now while everyone is still going through the learning curve. I would expect less "barking" as the season progresses and players are doing the right things more often.
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Mstermisty [enjin:6864008]
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Re: Game Report - Preseason Wolves v. Griz

Post by Mstermisty [enjin:6864008] »

My Dunn to Lavine comparison wasn't about shot mechanics either. It's shot selection. Dunn needs to realize his scoring isn't needed on this team like it was in college, even on the 2nd unit. So shooting those long 2's and contested 3's that aren't in the flow of the offense are going to put him on the bench. Last night Zach took some long 2's but they were either coming off a pick, or more in the flow aka a nice in rhythm step back that you can tell he has worked hard on. Zach in general looks finally looks like his basketball IQ is catching up to his natural talent.

Dunn just needs to slow down, take better shots, maybe focus more on penetration and getting to the hole. If anything I hope he is studying Rubio's game as far as running an offense. But again, from what I saw last night I'm not too discouraged. He's definitely still adjusting. Now if 25 games into the season he still looks like this we will have a problem.
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Monster
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Re: Game Report - Preseason Wolves v. Griz

Post by Monster »

Mstermisty wrote:My Dunn to Lavine comparison wasn't about shot mechanics either. It's shot selection. Dunn needs to realize his scoring isn't needed on this team like it was in college, even on the 2nd unit. So shooting those long 2's and contested 3's that aren't in the flow of the offense are going to put him on the bench. Last night Zach took some long 2's but they were either coming off a pick, or more in the flow aka a nice in rhythm step back that you can tell he has worked hard on. Zach in general looks finally looks like his basketball IQ is catching up to his natural talent.

Dunn just needs to slow down, take better shots, maybe focus more on penetration and getting to the hole. If anything I hope he is studying Rubio's game as far as running an offense. But again, from what I saw last night I'm not too discouraged. He's definitely still adjusting. Now if 25 games into the season he still looks like this we will have a problem.


I think your point about Lavine and Dunn makes sense. From what I have seen of him in college Dunn isn't a selfish scorer but what you alluded to is that he needs to learn when to pick his spots. You can see he knows it makes sense for him to looks to score or attack but it's not clear to him when to do what yet. What makes it worse is as a PG what I have seen so far is he doesn't really initiate much just sort of moves the ball around (which he is actually good at). He is playing it safe and smart but that only goes so far and it only puts so much pressure on the defense and helps teammates. It reminds me a bit of Lorenzo Brown he didn't make any mistakes and was solid but he didn't create much. Dunn is a much more explosive athlete than Brown and that's pretty significant and he also obviously has some real aggressive mentality as well but I think there is a bit of a parallel there before the comp breaks down horribly. Lol Like you said it's not looking good right now but it's no need to panic yet. It's disappointing to not see him play better though no doubt.
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Monster
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Re: Game Report - Preseason Wolves v. Griz

Post by Monster »

I thought this was a worthwhile read including some quotes from Thibs.

http://m.startribune.com/wolves-rookie-kris-dunn-still-needs-time-to-adapt-to-nba/397697051/
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Lipoli390
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Re: Game Report - Preseason Wolves v. Griz

Post by Lipoli390 »

longstrangetrip wrote:Good report, Lip. I was at the game too and agree with your observations...I suspect the debate kept a few season ticket holders home...there was no problem hearing Thibs all night in the empty arena, although I sometimes need subtitles to understand what he's saying. Gotta love the intensity! The entry way is such an upgrade...they are much more prepared to handle big crowds now. I'm mixed on the scoreboard. My seats are low enough that I have to crane my neck to use the new scoreboard, and I don't think fans in the front 5 rows can use it at all. But the picture is unbelievably clear, and they provide multiple angles on replays...truly state of the art.

I'm one of the biggest Tyus fans on the board, but I would rank his performance equal to Dunn's last night...both were pretty ugly. There was absolutely no offensive flow when either of them was running the point, and Ricky's brilliance merely accentuates how ineffective they were. I expect poor PG play from Kris, but Tyus's performance left me with a sour taste in my mouth after three dominating quarters. I even got what I have been asking for with a Jones/Dunn backcourt pairing, but it was a disaster. I'm not giving up on that concept, but it sure was terrible last night.

My son and I commented on two transformed bodies...Gorgui and Belly. G is much bigger, as you pointed out, although he doesn't seem to have lost any quickness. He had a very efficient offensive game (19 points on 6 shots!), and his defensive brilliance extended far beyond his 4 blocked shots...just a great game. Belly is so much quicker after his 20 pound weight loss in the off season, and also didn't exhibit the hesitancy he did last year...he aggressively attacked the rim and shot whenever he was open (and once or twice when he wasn't!). He didn't shoot well, but his floor game and defense were terrific. His footwork is much improved, and his 3 steals against only 1 foul shows he's getting what NBA defense is all about. I think he is quick enough to keep up with many NBA SFs and was actually surprised Thibs didn't play him at SF with Bazz and Wig out. Instead he decided to give the 49 minutes to Rush, Murry and Butler, and they supplied just 3 rebounds between them...I think Belly is a better option.

Towns played like it was the 7th game of the championship series...so intense the entire game. My son and I were calling for Thibs to take him out because we were both worried about an injury playing the way he was. Getting to the line 17 times was his reward for his aggressiveness, and he made them all!

Some here are giving Dunn/Jones some slack because of the guys that were on the court with them, but I look at it in the opposite way...I felt both PGs were so bad that they dragged down the players on the court with them. Backup PG was a big problem last night, but if Thibs can get either to elevate their game, I'm actually not too worried about the second unit...being able to spell the starters with guys like Belly, Aldrich, Bazz and Rush is pretty comforting.

The final comment I want to make is about the defensive intensity. I was skeptical about how Thibs might improve the defense, but if last night is an example, he has already done a lot to transform them. I wouldn't have liked to be playing against our defense last night...it was hellishly disruptive. Thibs' intensity and constant harassing of the officials can be annoying (and even funny) at times, and I share Lipoli's concern that he might wear out his welcome after a while, but he sure looks like the real deal for this team right now.


Good observations, LST. Looks like we both saw the same things last night. Belly's performance was a good example of how the box score can sometimes be highly misleading. The good news is that Belly proved to be very effective even when not shooting well. That bodes well for the season because he is truly a good shooter.

One more thought on defense. It went beyond the substantially higher level of defensive intensity. You could see that our players are much smarter and in sync on the defensive end. There's a reason for Thibs' reputation as a great defensive coach and it goes beyond instilling defensive intensity. We saw evidence of the things Thibs brings to the defensive end as a coach. I suspect we'll see some inconsistency on the defensive end early on, but I see last night's defensive effort becoming the norm over time.

I hear what you're saying about Tyus, but I still view his performance as significantly better than Dunn's. I expect Tyus to be limited substantially by the quality of players around him because of his physical limitations. His main strengths are his high IQ and court vision. Put good players around him and those strengths have the best chance to shine. Dunn's strengths, on the other hand, are his size and physicality at the PG position. Yet his questionable handle and poor decision-making make him look horrible even when he was out there with Zach on the court.

I agree with your scoreboard observations. The picture quality is awesome and great for watching from the concourse and probably upper deck. I experienced some of the same neck strain you experienced because of where my seats are. But I still love it.

Question for you. I thought Lucas and Butler were terrible. But I thought Murry was better than both and looked pretty decent. What are your thoughts?
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Lipoli390
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Re: Game Report - Preseason Wolves v. Griz

Post by Lipoli390 »

monsterpile wrote:
Mstermisty wrote:My Dunn to Lavine comparison wasn't about shot mechanics either. It's shot selection. Dunn needs to realize his scoring isn't needed on this team like it was in college, even on the 2nd unit. So shooting those long 2's and contested 3's that aren't in the flow of the offense are going to put him on the bench. Last night Zach took some long 2's but they were either coming off a pick, or more in the flow aka a nice in rhythm step back that you can tell he has worked hard on. Zach in general looks finally looks like his basketball IQ is catching up to his natural talent.

Dunn just needs to slow down, take better shots, maybe focus more on penetration and getting to the hole. If anything I hope he is studying Rubio's game as far as running an offense. But again, from what I saw last night I'm not too discouraged. He's definitely still adjusting. Now if 25 games into the season he still looks like this we will have a problem.


I think your point about Lavine and Dunn makes sense. From what I have seen of him in college Dunn isn't a selfish scorer but what you alluded to is that he needs to learn when to pick his spots. You can see he knows it makes sense for him to looks to score or attack but it's not clear to him when to do what yet. What makes it worse is as a PG what I have seen so far is he doesn't really initiate much just sort of moves the ball around (which he is actually good at). He is playing it safe and smart but that only goes so far and it only puts so much pressure on the defense and helps teammates. It reminds me a bit of Lorenzo Brown he didn't make any mistakes and was solid but he didn't create much. Dunn is a much more explosive athlete than Brown and that's pretty significant and he also obviously has some real aggressive mentality as well but I think there is a bit of a parallel there before the comp breaks down horribly. Lol Like you said it's not looking good right now but it's no need to panic yet. It's disappointing to not see him play better though no doubt.


My response on the LaVine/Dunn comparison is that there are shots that have always been decent shots for Zach that Dunn should never take because Zach has always been a natural shooter while Dunn is not. Dunn will have to earn his way as a stalwart and disruptive defender. Hopefully he can develop into a good facilitator. At best he might become a halfway decent shooter. Zach is a shooter like Crawford who can take and make shots that would be poor shots for many others. And you often want shooters like Zach taking some of those tough shots.
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Lipoli390
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Re: Game Report - Preseason Wolves v. Griz

Post by Lipoli390 »

monsterpile wrote:I thought this was a worthwhile read including some quotes from Thibs.

http://m.startribune.com/wolves-rookie-kris-dunn-still-needs-time-to-adapt-to-nba/397697051/


Thanks for posting, Monster. It's comforting to hear Thibs on this. It appears he likes what he's seen so far from Dunn and he certainly isn't in a panic. I trust Thibs' assessment of Dunn.
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Lipoli390
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Re: Game Report - Preseason Wolves v. Griz

Post by Lipoli390 »

Another thing I liked about last night's game is that our players weren't hesitant to shoot. LST noted that Belly was playing with confidence. I saw the same thing in the other guys. Very good sign and very different from last season where all the players except LaVine constantly hesitated and passed up good shots. That's a reflection of coaching.
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