Russell to the Wolves?

[longstrangetrip [enjin:6600564]]

Wow, great find crazysauce! I'm looking forward to reading people's thoughts on this topic, because I'm up in the air. If the Lakers are really trying to move Russell, and the Wolves are deemed to be a likely partner because of #5 and his relationship with KAT, this topic isn't quite as hypothetical as some of the other topics we've covered recently.

I thought about where Russell might go in this year's draft before I read any responses, and Cam might be going in the same direction I'm going in. A freshman coming off a good year is usually more highly regarded than an upperclassman, so I tend to think Russell would be top five this year...ahead of Dunn and Hield, but perhaps behind Murray. I think he would be somewhere in a tier with Murray and Bender, so trading a #5 pick for him has some logic from both sides.

Then there is the KAT relationship. I think all of us have been enormously impressed with KAT's character and basketball acumen, and if he was supportive of a deal like this, that would be a terrific endorsement.

Russell's first season was mixed, but I think his results have to be tempered by the oddity of the situation he found himself in. But still, his post All-star stats were quite good. 15-3-3 and 39% on threes. Yes, the assist total is low, but keep in mind Kobe handled the ball most of the time.

Defensively, he needs some work. I didn't watch him much his rookie season and actually thought he was impressive in his 2 games the prior year against the Gophers, but clearly his defensive reputation is not very good.

I thought Russell was a highly skilled, almost unique, offensive player coming out of college, with a very high ceiling. I was not surprised that he went #2 last year in a pretty good draft. But I'm not sure about the fit here. I don't know if he is a classic PG, or if he has some potential to play SG. Like I said, I'm on the fence on this one...it's certainly intriguing.

LST I am surprised you didn't shoot this down right away. Think of all that extra money we are gonna have to pay Russell over #5 or trading down and have to give him that big contract a year earlier!

Just giving you are hard time.

Ha, don't think I didn't consider that factor! It's certainly a consideration that last year's #2 makes a lot more than this year's #5, and as Cam said, we lose 1 year of control. It's one of the reasons I'm on the fence on this one.

[khans2k5 [enjin:6608728]]

I've already posted this before when it pertained to Russell, but since there's a new discussion about him, I'll re-post. I will state that I'm not super high on Per-36, but it's useful at times in the right context (starter/starter comparisons; not usually starter/bench player comparisons). We're looking at rookie seasons here because that's what's relevant.

D. Russell's Per-36 Minutes Averages:
16.8 points, 4.2 assists, 4.4 rebounds, 1.5 steals, 3.1 turnovers, 41.0 percent FG%, 35.1 percent 3P%

R. Westbrook's Per-36 Minutes Averages:
16.9 points, 5.9 assists, 5.4 rebounds, 1.5 steals, 3.7 turnovers, 39.8 percent FG%, 27.1 percent 3P%

Irving's Per-36 Minutes Averages:
21.8 points, 6.4 assists, 4.4 rebounds, 1.2 steals, 3.7 turnovers, 46.9 FG%, 39.9 3P%

Paul's Per-36 Minutes Averages:
16.1 points, 7.8 assists, 5.1 rebounds, 2.2 steals, 2.3 turnovers, 43.0 FG%, 28.2 3P

Harden's Per-36 Minutes Averages:
15.6 points, 2.8 assists, 5.1 rebounds, 1.7 steals, 2.2 turnovers, 40.3 FG%, 37.5 3P%

P. Hardaway's Per-36 Minutes Averages:
15.7 points, 6.5 assists, 5.2 rebounds, 2.3 steals, 3.5 turnovers, 46.6 FG%, 26.7 3P%

So, no, I don't see how Russell's rookie season was garbage. He also improved throughout the season. His talent level is still high and knocks on his character over one mistake is jumping the gun, IMO. Can we please remember that Russell got more flack than Young for that. You know, the guy who admittedly cheated on his fiancé, or whatever he was with that girl.

All you showed me is that Westbrook's first year wasn't so great, but I'm still not impressed with Russell. I could find a collection of mediocre players and list their per 36 stats and compare Russell to them. Guys like Randy Foye and Rashad McCants arguably had better stats their first year. You also didn't address Russell's poor RPM.

Ty Lawson had much better stats his first year. Brandon Jennings had a better first year.

What makes your examples of Lawson, Jennings, etc. better or more predictive of Russell's future success than Cam's? If anything all you did was confirm that rookie performance literally doesn't matter because good rookies have stayed mediocre players and bad rookies have become all-stars.

[longstrangetrip [enjin:6600564]]

I've already posted this before when it pertained to Russell, but since there's a new discussion about him, I'll re-post. I will state that I'm not super high on Per-36, but it's useful at times in the right context (starter/starter comparisons; not usually starter/bench player comparisons). We're looking at rookie seasons here because that's what's relevant.

D. Russell's Per-36 Minutes Averages:
16.8 points, 4.2 assists, 4.4 rebounds, 1.5 steals, 3.1 turnovers, 41.0 percent FG%, 35.1 percent 3P%

R. Westbrook's Per-36 Minutes Averages:
16.9 points, 5.9 assists, 5.4 rebounds, 1.5 steals, 3.7 turnovers, 39.8 percent FG%, 27.1 percent 3P%

Irving's Per-36 Minutes Averages:
21.8 points, 6.4 assists, 4.4 rebounds, 1.2 steals, 3.7 turnovers, 46.9 FG%, 39.9 3P%

Paul's Per-36 Minutes Averages:
16.1 points, 7.8 assists, 5.1 rebounds, 2.2 steals, 2.3 turnovers, 43.0 FG%, 28.2 3P

Harden's Per-36 Minutes Averages:
15.6 points, 2.8 assists, 5.1 rebounds, 1.7 steals, 2.2 turnovers, 40.3 FG%, 37.5 3P%

P. Hardaway's Per-36 Minutes Averages:
15.7 points, 6.5 assists, 5.2 rebounds, 2.3 steals, 3.5 turnovers, 46.6 FG%, 26.7 3P%

So, no, I don't see how Russell's rookie season was garbage. He also improved throughout the season. His talent level is still high and knocks on his character over one mistake is jumping the gun, IMO. Can we please remember that Russell got more flack than Young for that. You know, the guy who admittedly cheated on his fiancé, or whatever he was with that girl.

Good stuff, Cam...and I would add his assist totals are depressed playing next to a ball-dominant guy like Kobe.

We're all quite high on Zach LaVine, and here's a comparison of Russell and Lavine's rookie seasons:

http://www.basketball-reference.com/play-index/pcm_finder.cgi?request=1&sum=0&y1=2016&p1=russeda01&y2=2015&p2=lavinza01&p3=&p4=&p5=&p6=

Remarkably similar, although Russell had arguably a better season by most measures. Isn't it reasonable to assume D'Angelo can improve more in his second year under Thibs than Zach did under Mitchell? If so, Russell is looking at a very solid 2nd season.

Another comparison that is very close is Russell vs. Murray's freshman years. They both averaged 22.7 points per 40, although Russell's assists and rebounds were higher, and both shot 41% on threes. And of course, both prospects were not expected to be great NBA defenders.

After comparing D'Angelo to Zach and Murray at comparable stages, I'm more in favor of making this trade if it's available.

[TeamRicky [enjin:6648771]]

TeamRicky.....for someone that dislikes a guy (Russell) because of the way he behaves, and how he talks....you certainly carry yourself in a similar manner. You have become rude, condescending, and frankly....a complete jackass. Just thought you may want to know. Sometimes awareness isn't a strength for some folks. I think your PER for jack-ass-edness is somewhere well above league average.

I couldn't help but chuckle at the last line. "PER for jack-ass-edness." Oh, man.

Hicks, you are one of the dumber posters on the board and I think its funny you resort to name calling when I take a position you don't like. Camden, I like debating with you, but you often get flustered with anyone who doesn't agree with you and resort to name calling. I like talking Wolves basketball and debating potential moves but if you two want to try to personally attack me, you are just showing your immaturity.

[Coolbreeze44]

Back to the topic. I like Murray at #5 over Dunn. I like Dunn over Russell. Let's not be the philanthropists in the Lakers return to prominence.

[Camden [enjin:6601484]]

Calls one poster dumb and then says name-calling is immature. The irony is very real.

* I don't get flustered arguing with anyone, especially you. We've just had the same debates a hundred times and nothing new comes from your end. To that, I say it's exhausting and have since asked for you not to respond to me. That hasn't worked out well.

[Hicks123 [enjin:6700838]]

Ricky....get over yourself. I could care less what your opinion is on any given subject. My "name calling" is not a reaction to any specific position you took. You will notice, if you look back, that I never even stated an opinion on this topic....as I don't have one. My comment was simply an observation that over time, you have become less of a poster and more of an extreme critic. You used to simply contribute, and now you have just gone overboard with your attacks on virtually everyone. Have an opinion....but also know that you can skip a tread or two if you are simply going to spew your hatred for Jamal Murray, or whatever other topic you redundantly rant about.

We can agree to disagree on whether this is valid. No skin off my nose either way.

[khans2k5 [enjin:6608728]]

Back to the topic. I like Murray at #5 over Dunn. I like Dunn over Russell. Let's not be the philanthropists in the Lakers return to prominence.

I think Russell and Dunn is close with Murray behind both. I just don't think Murray is as good off the dribble both scoring and playmaking as Russell or Dunn and that's important if you're a guard in the NBA because it makes you a dual threat and that much harder to stop as a team. Klay didn't become an all-star until he started successfully taking guys off the dribble. Spot up shooting no matter how great only gets you so far in this league and I question Murray off the dribble.

[longstrangetrip [enjin:6600564]]

Back to the topic. I like Murray at #5 over Dunn. I like Dunn over Russell. Let's not be the philanthropists in the Lakers return to prominence.

Cool, I know you have jumped on the Murray train recently, and I'm also intrigued by him...especially as a shooter. But after looking at the comparative freshmen stats for Russell and Murray, Russell looks to me like the more complete prospect. They're similar shooters, but Russell was the superior rebounder and distributor. And Russell has proven that his 3-point shooting translates to the pro level, as he shot over 39% after the all star break.

Since you prefer Murray to Russell, sell me on that comparison.

[Coolbreeze44]

Back to the topic. I like Murray at #5 over Dunn. I like Dunn over Russell. Let's not be the philanthropists in the Lakers return to prominence.

Cool, I know you have jumped on the Murray train recently, and I'm also intrigued by him...especially as a shooter. But after looking at the comparative freshmen stats for Russell and Murray, Russell looks to me like the more complete prospect. They're similar shooters, but Russell was the superior rebounder and distributor. And Russell has proven that his 3-point shooting translates to the pro level, as he shot over 39% after the all star break.

Since you prefer Murray to Russell, sell me on that comparison.

Remember what programs they came from in college. It isn't so easy to stand out at Kentucky, as our reigning rookie of the year showed. Russell didn't have a lot of help at Ohio State, so I think it's real hard to compare their college seasons and come up with decent conclusions.

I listen to a ton of NBA talk on a wide variety of radio talk shows. Some of the things I'm hearing from reputable pundits about Murray are just flat out exciting. There are a few who would take him over both Simmons and Ingram. Many talk glowingly about his basketball skills, some that haven't been fully on display at Kentucky. He's not a great athlete, but a lot of the games' best players aren't. He's just a 19 year old kid who has the savvy and skills to become a terrific NBA player. I'd be beyond thrilled to add him to our core. I know this isn't a great summation, but gotta head to church now. I'd like to hear what others like/don't like about him.