Wolves at Jazz GDT

[Camden [enjin:6601484]]

I honestly can't believe we're still debating this. The "Wiggins has a questionable motor" issue isn't one that was made up out of no where. It's been speculated on since he was a freshman at Kansas where it first became evident and it's stuck with him through his first two seasons in the NBA. For crying out loud, even Flip Saunders and Milt Newton have commented on it. Two guys that are around Wiggins more than all of us combined. (http://www.foxsports.com/north/story/andrew-wiggins-path-to-top-rookie-paved-after-tongue-lashing-from-flip-saunders-043015)

Also, don't make it out to be an all numbers thing. Scoffing at a player's motor issues is like scoffing at leadership, clutch gene and other unmeasurable aspects of the game. Doesn't mean they aren't very real and very noticeable. Some of you/us get so caught up in sticking up for a favorite player that you begin defending them for things that are legitimately a problem. Wiggins being passive, Wiggins playing with half-assed effort. Yeah, that's not a myth.

[Q12543 [enjin:6621299]]

We have gone round and round about Wiggins but if you aren't a little concerned about his doing other stuff other than scoring...come on be realistic. Having said that the last 3 or so games Wiggins has been really locked in and I think ultimately he will be fine but he has to at least get more 50/50 balls and sprint down the court 3x a game more on average. There is a measurable metric for ya. :)

For me, it's all about perspective. Wiggins is already an elite scorer. As far as "other stuff" if you compare him to our other Wings, I'm not seeing anything alarming:

Rebounds %:
Bazz - 9.4%
Wiggins - 6.0%
Prince - 5.9%
LaVine - 5.8%
Martin - 5.6%
Rudez - 4.0%

Bazz is an excellent rebounder. Wiggins holds a slight edge over the rest of the pack.

Ast%:
LaVine - 18.9%
Wiggins - 10.2%
Martin - 8.9%
Prince - 6.8%
Rudez - 6.2%
Bazz - 4.9%

LaVine played a lot of PG. Wiggins leads all other Wings.

Steal %
LaVine 1.4%
WIggins 1.3%
Prince 1.2%
Martin 1.0%
Bazz - .07%
Rudez .06%

Not a lot of separation. But Wiggins filters towards the top again.

Block %
Wiggins 1.4%
Prince - .08%
LaVine - .05%
Bazz - .04%
Rudez - .03%
Martin - .01%

Wiggins clear leader in blocks.

What else is there?

Wait, you are comparing him to his team mates on a 25-28 win ball club (depending on the final games here)? That isn't exactly a murderer's row of talent there.

We are talking about the #1 pick in the draft two years ago with a Mom that is a former track star and Dad that was a professional basketball player. He's 6'8 or 6'9 with a 40+ inch vertical. I don't know about you, but I expect a hell of a lot more out of him than any of those other guys. His numbers in those same categories are very pedestrian when compared to his true contemporaries.

I've moved on from the motor issue at this point though - it is what it is and it's not the type of thing that changes in a player. I think he will keep improving as a scorer and eventually that will be his calling card.

Now if you want to see the absolute TOTAL package - athleticism, shooting, rebounding, deflections, attitude, and motor - one only needs to look at Wiggins' slightly younger team mate.

[Carlos Danger]

Wait, you are comparing him to his team mates on a 25-28 win ball club (depending on the final games here)? That isn't exactly a murderer's row of talent there.

We are talking about the #1 pick in the draft two years ago with a Mom that is a former track star and Dad that was a professional basketball player. He's 6'8 or 6'9 with a 40+ inch vertical. I don't know about you, but I expect a hell of a lot more out of him than any of those other guys. His numbers in those same categories are very pedestrian when compared to his true contemporaries.

I've moved on from the motor issue at this point though - it is what it is and it's not the type of thing that changes in a player. I think he will keep improving as a scorer and eventually that will be his calling card.

Now if you want to see the absolute TOTAL package - athleticism, shooting, rebounding, deflections, attitude, and motor - one only needs to look at Wiggins' slightly younger team mate.

I'm comparing him to the his teammates who play his position (Wing) - yes. I'm surprised you don't understand the logic in that. Some of you have questioned Wiggins "motor" and keep pointing to rebounding as evidence. I call Bullshit. None of our wings rebound other than Bazz (who really plays more like a PF). You can try to down play that by saying it's not a talented squad. Well, I call Bullshit again. LaVine is every bit the athletic freak/talent Wiggins is. And Kmart/Prince have certainly had nice careers. Yet I don't read anyone questioning their "motor" based on his similar rebounding. So again, shoot me a link to that magic "motor meter" that you use and we can settle this argument once and for all. Otherwise, yeah...all I can do is point to actual statistics and accolades. Examples: #1 overall draft pick, NBA 1st Team All Rookie selection, NBA Rookie of the Year and Top 15 scorer this year. And none of those would indicate motor problems.

[AbeVigodaLive]

Don't care about the motor discussion.

It's too subjective of a thing to get anywhere. But I agree with Q about comparing Wiggins to guys like Rudez. Why?

Wiggins is an all-world promising talent. Comparing him to crappy teammates on a 55-loss team seems to be defeatist thinking. I don't want Wiggins to be better than Shabazz Muhammad. I want him to be better than Jimmy Butler or Klay Thompson or Carmelo Anthony.

[TheFuture]

Is anyone else having issues posting on this site?

Particularly in the draft thread.

[Carlos Danger]

Don't care about the motor discussion.

It's too subjective of a thing to get anywhere. But I agree with Q about comparing Wiggins to guys like Rudez. Why?

Wiggins is an all-world promising talent. Comparing him to crappy teammates on a 55-loss team seems to be defeatist thinking. I don't want Wiggins to be better than Shabazz Muhammad. I want him to be better than Jimmy Butler or Klay Thompson or Carmelo Anthony.

Ummm...Wiggins compares pretty favorable to all those players and at a younger age than either Butler or Thompson. Here's second seasons for each player:

[table]
[tr]
[th]Player[/th]
[th]Age[/th]
[th]PER[/th]
[th]TS%[/th]
[th]TRB%[/th]
[th]AST %[/th]
[th]STL %[/th]
[th]BLK %[/th]
[th]Point per Game[/th]
[/tr]
[tr]
[td]Andrew Wiggins[/td]
[td]20[/td]
[td]16.4[/td]
[td].539[/td]
[td]6.0[/td]
[td]10.2[/td]
[td]1.3[/td]
[td]1.4[/td]
[td]20.6[/td]
[/tr]
[tr]
[td]Jimmy Butler[/td]
[td]23[/td]
[td]15.2[/td]
[td].574[/td]
[td]8.8[/td]
[td]8.6[/td]
[td]2.0[/td]
[td]1.1[/td]
[td]8.6[/td]
[/tr]
[tr]
[td]Klay Thompson[/td]
[td]22[/td]
[td]12.7[/td]
[td].533[/td]
[td]5.7[/td]
[td]10.1[/td]
[td]1.5[/td]
[td]1.2[/td]
[td]16.6[/td]
[/tr]
[tr]
[td]Carmelo Anthony[/td]
[td]20[/td]
[td]16.7[/td]
[td].526[/td]
[td]9.4[/td]
[td]13.1[/td]
[td]1.3[/td]
[td].09[/td]
[td]20.8[/td]
[/tr]
[/table]

[thedoper]

Hitting it out of the park Danger. Nice post.

[AbeVigodaLive]

Don't care about the motor discussion.

It's too subjective of a thing to get anywhere. But I agree with Q about comparing Wiggins to guys like Rudez. Why?

Wiggins is an all-world promising talent. Comparing him to crappy teammates on a 55-loss team seems to be defeatist thinking. I don't want Wiggins to be better than Shabazz Muhammad. I want him to be better than Jimmy Butler or Klay Thompson or Carmelo Anthony.

Ummm...Wiggins compares pretty favorable to all those players and at a younger age than either Butler or Thompson. Here's second seasons for each player:

[table]
[tr]
[th]Player[/th]
[th]Age[/th]
[th]PER[/th]
[th]TS%[/th]
[th]TRB%[/th]
[th]AST %[/th]
[th]STL %[/th]
[th]BLK %[/th]
[th]Point per Game[/th]
[/tr]
[tr]
[td]Andrew Wiggins[/td]
[td]20[/td]
[td]16.4[/td]
[td].539[/td]
[td]6.0[/td]
[td]10.2[/td]
[td]1.3[/td]
[td]1.4[/td]
[td]20.6[/td]
[/tr]
[tr]
[td]Jimmy Butler[/td]
[td]23[/td]
[td]15.2[/td]
[td].574[/td]
[td]8.8[/td]
[td]8.6[/td]
[td]2.0[/td]
[td]1.1[/td]
[td]8.6[/td]
[/tr]
[tr]
[td]Klay Thompson[/td]
[td]22[/td]
[td]12.7[/td]
[td].533[/td]
[td]5.7[/td]
[td]10.1[/td]
[td]1.5[/td]
[td]1.2[/td]
[td]16.6[/td]
[/tr]
[tr]
[td]Carmelo Anthony[/td]
[td]20[/td]
[td]16.7[/td]
[td].526[/td]
[td]9.4[/td]
[td]13.1[/td]
[td]1.3[/td]
[td].09[/td]
[td]20.8[/td]
[/tr]
[/table]

Great. Then let's continue to compare Wiggins to those guys instead of players who'll never be NBA starters...

[worldK]

Don't care about the motor discussion.

It's too subjective of a thing to get anywhere. But I agree with Q about comparing Wiggins to guys like Rudez. Why?

Wiggins is an all-world promising talent. Comparing him to crappy teammates on a 55-loss team seems to be defeatist thinking. I don't want Wiggins to be better than Shabazz Muhammad. I want him to be better than Jimmy Butler or Klay Thompson or Carmelo Anthony.

Ummm...Wiggins compares pretty favorable to all those players and at a younger age than either Butler or Thompson. Here's second seasons for each player:

[table]
[tr]
[th]Player[/th]
[th]Age[/th]
[th]PER[/th]
[th]TS%[/th]
[th]TRB%[/th]
[th]AST %[/th]
[th]STL %[/th]
[th]BLK %[/th]
[th]Point per Game[/th]
[/tr]
[tr]
[td]Andrew Wiggins[/td]
[td]20[/td]
[td]16.4[/td]
[td].539[/td]
[td]6.0[/td]
[td]10.2[/td]
[td]1.3[/td]
[td]1.4[/td]
[td]20.6[/td]
[/tr]
[tr]
[td]Jimmy Butler[/td]
[td]23[/td]
[td]15.2[/td]
[td].574[/td]
[td]8.8[/td]
[td]8.6[/td]
[td]2.0[/td]
[td]1.1[/td]
[td]8.6[/td]
[/tr]
[tr]
[td]Klay Thompson[/td]
[td]22[/td]
[td]12.7[/td]
[td].533[/td]
[td]5.7[/td]
[td]10.1[/td]
[td]1.5[/td]
[td]1.2[/td]
[td]16.6[/td]
[/tr]
[tr]
[td]Carmelo Anthony[/td]
[td]20[/td]
[td]16.7[/td]
[td].526[/td]
[td]9.4[/td]
[td]13.1[/td]
[td]1.3[/td]
[td].09[/td]
[td]20.8[/td]
[/tr]
[/table]

Great. Then let's continue to compare Wiggins to those guys instead of players who'll never be NBA starters...

To be fair Abe, Carlos did just compare wig to to Butler, melo and klay by posting those stats. Instead of adding it or commenting on it, you choose to be sarcastic. Okay.

I do agree that those 3 and maybe derozen should be the guys that we should incorporate when discussing Wiggins.

[Carlos Danger]

Don't care about the motor discussion.

It's too subjective of a thing to get anywhere. But I agree with Q about comparing Wiggins to guys like Rudez. Why?

Wiggins is an all-world promising talent. Comparing him to crappy teammates on a 55-loss team seems to be defeatist thinking. I don't want Wiggins to be better than Shabazz Muhammad. I want him to be better than Jimmy Butler or Klay Thompson or Carmelo Anthony.

Ummm...Wiggins compares pretty favorable to all those players and at a younger age than either Butler or Thompson. Here's second seasons for each player:

[table]
[tr]
[th]Player[/th]
[th]Age[/th]
[th]PER[/th]
[th]TS%[/th]
[th]TRB%[/th]
[th]AST %[/th]
[th]STL %[/th]
[th]BLK %[/th]
[th]Point per Game[/th]
[/tr]
[tr]
[td]Andrew Wiggins[/td]
[td]20[/td]
[td]16.4[/td]
[td].539[/td]
[td]6.0[/td]
[td]10.2[/td]
[td]1.3[/td]
[td]1.4[/td]
[td]20.6[/td]
[/tr]
[tr]
[td]Jimmy Butler[/td]
[td]23[/td]
[td]15.2[/td]
[td].574[/td]
[td]8.8[/td]
[td]8.6[/td]
[td]2.0[/td]
[td]1.1[/td]
[td]8.6[/td]
[/tr]
[tr]
[td]Klay Thompson[/td]
[td]22[/td]
[td]12.7[/td]
[td].533[/td]
[td]5.7[/td]
[td]10.1[/td]
[td]1.5[/td]
[td]1.2[/td]
[td]16.6[/td]
[/tr]
[tr]
[td]Carmelo Anthony[/td]
[td]20[/td]
[td]16.7[/td]
[td].526[/td]
[td]9.4[/td]
[td]13.1[/td]
[td]1.3[/td]
[td].09[/td]
[td]20.8[/td]
[/tr]
[/table]

Great. Then let's continue to compare Wiggins to those guys instead of players who'll never be NBA starters...

I had previously shown stats of ALL our Wings in response to those who claim Wiggins doesn't do enough "other stuff" and that equates to "bad motor". I did that because there are people who feel Wiggins is targeted unfairly with that label. Looking at all our Wings actual production provides perspective to show why some feel that way. To dismiss that as me "comparing Wiggins to players who'll never be NBA starters" is obviously wrong since LaVine is our current starting SG and Prince/Kmart have started about 1,400 games between them in the NBA. But nice try.