CoolBreeze's 2 Things I Didn't Like Tonight Plus 1

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thedoper
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Re: CoolBreeze's 2 Things I Didn't Like Tonight Plus 1

Post by thedoper »

longstrangetrip wrote:
thedoper wrote:More room for me to stretch out on the Wiggins train I guess. You are all welcome back on when the time comes. I won't even call you for overreacting after 2 preseason games.


Ha, don't take up too much space, doper! I think a lot of us are still on the train, but don't think he played very well the first two games. How do you think he looked last night?


SJM mentioned this in the other post and I'm with him 100%. He is a unique player where 1 on 1 d is still his biggest strength. He is still contributing there. Like Jimmy Butler/Paul George/Kawaii Leonard the offense will be the last skill to come around. I suspect he is going to gain ground this year on offense more out of effiencey than volume. I still expect "checking out" this season because a well rounded offensive game is his weakness.
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KiwiMatt
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Re: CoolBreeze's 2 Things I Didn't Like Tonight Plus 1

Post by KiwiMatt »

Great report guys. I only managed to catch a couple of minutes.

I really thought Tyus would struggle to score in the NBA with his lack of size, but he surprised me last night. He could develop into a pretty solid PG.

Don't sleep on Shabazz. I think he might force his way into the starting lineup ahead of LaVine and Martin. He creates mismatches and would take away alot of pressure from Wiggins. Looks like his handle has improved too.

Also the battle for the 15th spot is so close between LoBrown and Rudez. I'm picking Rudez because he is the best 3 point shooter currently on this roster.With Rubio, Miller, Jones and even LaVine we have enough personal to cover that position.
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BizarroJerry [enjin:6592520]
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Re: CoolBreeze's 2 Things I Didn't Like Tonight Plus 1

Post by BizarroJerry [enjin:6592520] »

Yep, I'm not ready to start bashing the ROY yet either. Hasn't even had a series of games with Rubio yet this year. Or last year for that matter.
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Camden [enjin:6601484]
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Re: CoolBreeze's 2 Things I Didn't Like Tonight Plus 1

Post by Camden [enjin:6601484] »

thedoper: "SJM mentioned this in the other post and I'm with him 100%. He is a unique player where 1 on 1 d is still his biggest strength. He is still contributing there. Like Jimmy Butler/Paul George/Kawaii Leonard the offense will be the last skill to come around. I suspect he is going to gain ground this year on offense more out of effiencey than volume. I still expect "checking out" this season because a well rounded offensive game is his weakness."

I disagree with this. Defense absolutely should be Wiggins' biggest strength, but I don't think it is. He's got the tools and some instincts, but based on what we've seen, I'd argue that his biggest strength is getting to the free throw line, which is what good scorers do. He's way ahead of the curve on this aspect of basketball. He averaged 5.7 free throw attempts per game last year as a rookie (good enough for 13th in the NBA among those that qualified), and here's how he improved monthly in that area over the season.

November: 3.8
December: 4.9
January: 4.8
February: 5.4
March: 7.2
April: 10.4

Just so everyone understands how good of a clip 5.7 is, our very own Kevin Martin is known for getting to line and his career average is 5.9 FTA per game. The best in the league is James Harden at 10.2, which is ridiculous, and Wiggins was able to produce 13 games where he had 10 attempts or more. That's impressive not just for a 19-year old kid.

That's the Andrew Wiggins that gets me excited. Aggressive, attacking the rim, making the defense stop him, using his freakish physical abilities, going right at guys, making the referees blow their whistles. I love that player.

I can't stand watching the "other" Andrew Wiggins. Lazy, mentally soft, too casual, prone to settling, jogging in transition, bailing the defense out by taking tough mid-range jumpers. That player drives me crazy.
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Monster
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Re: CoolBreeze's 2 Things I Didn't Like Tonight Plus 1

Post by Monster »

Camden0916 wrote:thedoper: "SJM mentioned this in the other post and I'm with him 100%. He is a unique player where 1 on 1 d is still his biggest strength. He is still contributing there. Like Jimmy Butler/Paul George/Kawaii Leonard the offense will be the last skill to come around. I suspect he is going to gain ground this year on offense more out of effiencey than volume. I still expect "checking out" this season because a well rounded offensive game is his weakness."

I disagree with this. Defense absolutely should be Wiggins' biggest strength, but I don't think it is. He's got the tools and some instincts, but based on what we've seen, I'd argue that his biggest strength is getting to the free throw line, which is what good scorers do. He's way ahead of the curve on this aspect of basketball. He averaged 5.7 free throw attempts per game last year as a rookie (good enough for 13th in the NBA among those that qualified), and here's how he improved monthly in that area over the season.

November: 3.8
December: 4.9
January: 4.8
February: 5.4
March: 7.2
April: 10.4

Just so everyone understands how good of a clip 5.7 is, our very own Kevin Martin is known for getting to line and his career average is 5.9 FTA per game. The best in the league is James Harden at 10.2, which is ridiculous, and Wiggins was able to produce 13 games where he had 10 attempts or more. That's impressive not just for a 19-year old kid.

That's the Andrew Wiggins that gets me excited. Aggressive, attacking the rim, making the defense stop him, using his freakish physical abilities, going right at guys, making the referees blow their whistles. I love that player.

I can't stand watching the "other" Andrew Wiggins. Lazy, mentally soft, too casual, prone to settling, jogging in transition, bailing the defense out by taking tough mid-range jumpers. That player drives me crazy.


That Wiggins that attacked last season often got feed the ball a lot in certain spots. I think he will learn to demand the ball more and also work within a team concept but as I have said a couple times in various threads I don't think the Wolves have worked much on offense so far so that might be hurting Wiggins some. He may be conflicted between playing a team game and getting the ball and doing something to score. This roster is kinda interesting because it has a lot of scoring potential but it's also a young mix of guys and a lot of the scorers probably tend more towards isolation type plays. I liked how ready Bazz was last night to get up that 3 pointer. This team needs more volume 3 point shooters if he can be more of that it would really open things up a lot.
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thedoper
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Re: CoolBreeze's 2 Things I Didn't Like Tonight Plus 1

Post by thedoper »

Lazy and mentally soft are such colossal overstatements when talking about Wiggins' game.
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BizarroJerry [enjin:6592520]
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Re: CoolBreeze's 2 Things I Didn't Like Tonight Plus 1

Post by BizarroJerry [enjin:6592520] »

KiwiMatt wrote:Great report guys. I only managed to catch a couple of minutes.

I really thought Tyus would struggle to score in the NBA with his lack of size, but he surprised me last night. He could develop into a pretty solid PG.

Don't sleep on Shabazz. I think he might force his way into the starting lineup ahead of LaVine and Martin. He creates mismatches and would take away alot of pressure from Wiggins. Looks like his handle has improved too.

Also the battle for the 15th spot is so close between LoBrown and Rudez. I'm picking Rudez because he is the best 3 point shooter currently on this roster.With Rubio, Miller, Jones and even LaVine we have enough personal to cover that position.


That's a nice idea Kiwi, but I think Martin may have to become the starter, we need a volume scorer on that first team, Lavine doesn't look ready yet, Bazz isn't really a good enough from 3 pt land to be starting.
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Q12543 [enjin:6621299]
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Re: CoolBreeze's 2 Things I Didn't Like Tonight Plus 1

Post by Q12543 [enjin:6621299] »

monsterpile wrote:
Camden0916 wrote:thedoper: "SJM mentioned this in the other post and I'm with him 100%. He is a unique player where 1 on 1 d is still his biggest strength. He is still contributing there. Like Jimmy Butler/Paul George/Kawaii Leonard the offense will be the last skill to come around. I suspect he is going to gain ground this year on offense more out of effiencey than volume. I still expect "checking out" this season because a well rounded offensive game is his weakness."

I disagree with this. Defense absolutely should be Wiggins' biggest strength, but I don't think it is. He's got the tools and some instincts, but based on what we've seen, I'd argue that his biggest strength is getting to the free throw line, which is what good scorers do. He's way ahead of the curve on this aspect of basketball. He averaged 5.7 free throw attempts per game last year as a rookie (good enough for 13th in the NBA among those that qualified), and here's how he improved monthly in that area over the season.

November: 3.8
December: 4.9
January: 4.8
February: 5.4
March: 7.2
April: 10.4

Just so everyone understands how good of a clip 5.7 is, our very own Kevin Martin is known for getting to line and his career average is 5.9 FTA per game. The best in the league is James Harden at 10.2, which is ridiculous, and Wiggins was able to produce 13 games where he had 10 attempts or more. That's impressive not just for a 19-year old kid.

That's the Andrew Wiggins that gets me excited. Aggressive, attacking the rim, making the defense stop him, using his freakish physical abilities, going right at guys, making the referees blow their whistles. I love that player.

I can't stand watching the "other" Andrew Wiggins. Lazy, mentally soft, too casual, prone to settling, jogging in transition, bailing the defense out by taking tough mid-range jumpers. That player drives me crazy.


That Wiggins that attacked last season often got feed the ball a lot in certain spots. I think he will learn to demand the ball more and also work within a team concept but as I have said a couple times in various threads I don't think the Wolves have worked much on offense so far so that might be hurting Wiggins some. He may be conflicted between playing a team game and getting the ball and doing something to score. This roster is kinda interesting because it has a lot of scoring potential but it's also a young mix of guys and a lot of the scorers probably tend more towards isolation type plays. I liked how ready Bazz was last night to get up that 3 pointer. This team needs more volume 3 point shooters if he can be more of that it would really open things up a lot.



There were three plays specifically designed for Wiggins, all of which involved some sort of isolation:

1. Post ups - no need to explain

2. Right elbow isolations - He would sometimes receive the ball in the high post at around the elbow and then face up his man.

3. Pick and roll as the screen setter - This was a play Flip used a ton. First he'd set a backscreen on the SG's man. This almost never resulted in the SG getting the ball cutting toward the hoop. Instead, the SG would clear out of that side of the floor and then Wiggins would set a screen on the PG's man, then receive the pass from the PG with some downhill momentum.

I haven't seen Mitchell use #3 yet in pre-season, but I have seen the first two.

But the key point is that Wiggins had plays designed specifically for him and Flip went to them more and more as guys went down and he increasingly relied on Wiggins. As we've harped on for over a year now, he needs to do more to free himself up for buckets when plays aren't designed for him.
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bleedspeed
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Re: CoolBreeze's 2 Things I Didn't Like Tonight Plus 1

Post by bleedspeed »

I am not worried about Wiggins. I am sure once the games count plays will be called for him and he will become a focus for the team. Why work on it a ton in preseason? It is time to experiment.
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Q12543 [enjin:6621299]
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Re: CoolBreeze's 2 Things I Didn't Like Tonight Plus 1

Post by Q12543 [enjin:6621299] »

bleedspeed177 wrote:I am not worried about Wiggins. I am sure once the games count plays will be called for him and he will become a focus for the team. Why work on it a ton in preseason? It is time to experiment.


But the point isn't that the Wolves should be running more plays for him. The point is that he doesn't seem good at creating opportunities for himself without specific plays being run for him. Shabazz is the polar opposite. The guy hunts down points like a rabid dog.

(I don't mean to compare Wiggins vs. Shabazz as overall players, but to simply contrast how engaged they are when they don't have the ball in their hands).
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