Keep Ricky in Minnesota

[AbeVigodaLive]

A lot of Rubio stuff. Wow.

I'm growing weary of it... and I'm probably not alone. And yet, nothing has changed. No opinions have changed. Alas, that's what you get when you discuss a unique and very polarizing player like Rubio among avid fans. I'm not for trading him now just to trade him. I think he helps the team overall. And I think he's a lot of fun. In fact, after Steph Curry, he's probably my 2nd favorite player to watch in the entire league.

Now, here's where my problem begins...

It's humorous how long of a leash some guys get. And I don't know why he is so quickly absolved from the mess that the Wolves have been in since he's been here. I mean, we have one of the best posters here (IMO) pointing out half-season stats to prove Rubio was a "winner" (21 - 20). AHA! And we have had countless people let him off the hook for that 40 - 42 season when the Wolves were 1 - 14 (?) in close games when they mattered (only 7 - 16 for the season which still sucks balls) and Rubio shot 18% or some ridiculous percentage. Stop blaming Adelman. Love. Martin. Barea. Et al. Just accept it that Rubio sucked so much that he lost the trust of his coach with his terrible 4th quarter play. He wasn't alone. Those other guys' numbers were down too... but I don't care. We're talking about Rubio. I don't know any other fanbase who would give one of the team's best players a pass in that situation... except us.

TS% and VORP and RPM and DFL GHKDF and OIDD... there are literally dozens of stats we can use to judge players. Which ones are important? Which ones aren't? That's a debate for another time. But posting Rubio's TS% isn't going to dissuade me from knowing that Rubio sucks as a shooter. He has for 5 seasons. He's not the next Jason Kidd. He's not going to get much better. All that "improvement" cited throughout this thread is marginal. Oddly enough... none of the stats that could be used to show regression are ever used. For years, we heard how Jason Kidd... err... Ricky Rubio was such a great rebounder. Now that he rebounds slightly less are we not using that narrative anymore? Are we not still using the "Rubio would have had x more assists if his teammates could shoot" narrative anymore either?

_______________________________________

Rubio is an intangibles guy. I get that. In fact, I think most of us get that. It's hard to judge him next to guys who go for 20 ppg routinely. It certainly doesn't mean Rubio is the worse player. And vice versa. There are so so many factors that go into it. And it's really really hard to know for certain.

No other PG in the league has played for crappier teams in his career than Rubio. Which means that nobody loses as much as a starting PG over the past 5 years as much as Rubio. Isn't he the only guy considered in the top 15 that has not had a winning record (sorry, half seasons don't count). Even a guy like Kemba Walker, who started off 7 - 59 in 2012 is set to finish above .500 and in the playoffs for the second time (averaging 20/4/5 with 20.7 PER for what it's worth).

Is that all Rubio's fault? No. Obviously not. (The Wolves are the worst franchise in modern NBA history after all, for many reasons that go WAAAAAY beyond Rubio struggling to shoot.) And via advanced statistics, we know Rubio outplayed almost all of his teammates during his time here. He's played with a lot of stiffs.

But that doesn't mean he's off the hook either. When a team can't win. "Ever." Something is amiss. Owner. GM(s). Coach(es). And the "PG who makes his teammates better" has to accept a few fingers pointed his way, too.


[Note: This really was supposed to be a quick sentence or two post. Dammit. Damn you Ricky Rubio... you did this to me!!!!!]

[Q12543 [enjin:6621299]]

Abe, I just think the "he hasn't won in Minnesota" is weak sauce in judging him as a player given ALL of the other variables. I think that would be a valid argument if we were trying to compare him to Russell Westbrook or LeBron James - guys with singular talent that can impose their will on the game - but no one here is trying to do that.

You mentioned the myriad of advanced stats and how they say different things about the same player. But the thing is, every single one of those advanced stats pegs Ricky as an above average starting PG. Some more than others, but there is no real conflicting data when it comes to those stats, so there isn't much to debate unless you want to squabble over the one that says he's the 7th best PG versus the 11th best PG.

I think the Rubio skeptics have two legitimate things to hang their hat on:

1) His injury history/durability.

2) His potential issues in a drawn out playoff series

I personally worry more about #1 than #2.

[AbeVigodaLive]

Abe, I just think the "he hasn't won in Minnesota" is weak sauce in judging him as a player given ALL of the other variables. I think that would be a valid argument if we were trying to compare him to Russell Westbrook or LeBron James - guys with singular talent that can impose their will on the game - but no one here is trying to do that.

You mentioned the myriad of advanced stats and how they say different things about the same player. But the thing is, every single one of those advanced stats pegs Ricky as an above average starting PG. Some more than others, but there is no real conflicting data when it comes to those stats, so there isn't much to debate unless you want to squabble over the one that says he's the 7th best PG versus the 11th best PG.

I think the Rubio skeptics have two legitimate things to hang their hat on:

1) His injury history/durability.

2) His potential issues in a drawn out playoff series

I personally worry more about #1 than #2.

1. He hasn't won in Minnesota. That's not to say it's his fault. But it shouldn't be completely glossed over either... which I feel like it is at times like when I see multiple posts from multiple people claiming he's a "winner." What? Based on what? he's the only "top" PG who hasn't finished a season .500. Cursory cheap shot? Or meaningful about just how much impact a player like him can have if not with the exact right crew? As with most things with Rubio... the truth is somewhere in the middle. A black/white type of player on the surface with a lot of gray areas that get missed as a result.

2. I wasn't only referring to advanced stats. FG% indicates Rubio sucks. And PPG, PER and other stats have him closer to the Brevin Knight level of player. There are SO MANY stats. We all pick and choose the ones we think serve our argument best. And in Ricky's case... they're so polarizing. As noted, his FG% sucks. But he's got a great VORP or something else. That disparity is what makes him a lightning rod type of player for both sides. (And even those in-between... where I find myself)

3. I think it's pretty clear that my beef isn't really with Rubio. It's the way he's been coddled since his first game in the L. Literally.

4. I'm very excited to rip/praise Rubio for his playoff performances.

[Monster]

Rubio was sort of the guy that probably was part of the reason for the somewhat random stat of TO/steal ratio. Should another stat be created to help us understand his value?

I suggest B-FLAG-TS% (Blame For Losing and General Team Suckiness). What should go into this metric? How should things be weighted? I feel like this new stat could be really promising.

[Lipoli390]

Abe - You're trying too hard to cobble together a basis for criticizing Ricky. It seems to be the product of your contrarian or curmudgeon impulse that we see in so many of your posts. :) Yes, Ricky has a terrible FG percentage. That's why he's not an elite or all-star caliber PG. But no one is arguing that he's great; just that he's good. And the statistics, as a whole, overwhelmingly demonstrate that he's a good PG.

[AbeVigodaLive]

Abe - You're trying too hard to cobble together a basis for criticizing Ricky. It seems to be the product of your contrarian or curmudgeon impulse that we see in so many of your posts. :) Yes, Ricky has a terrible FG percentage. That's why he's not an elite or all-star caliber PG. But no one is arguing that he's great; just that he's good. And the statistics, as a whole, overwhelmingly demonstrate that he's a good PG.

Fair enough. You might be right. But I'm not really ripping Rubio.

I'm ripping posters for coddling him for 5 seasons now. Can't be much clearer than that.


[Note: Maybe if Brevin Knight were here for five seasons, we'd have done the same for him. We're fans and want our players to excel. It should be expected. Maybe I'm just more surly than the average fan.]

[criteriado [enjin:15176386]]

1. He hasn't won in Minnesota. That's not to say it's his fault. But it shouldn't be completely glossed over either... which I feel like it is at times like when I see multiple posts from multiple people claiming he's a "winner." What? Based on what? he's the only "top" PG who hasn't finished a season .500. Cursory cheap shot? Or meaningful about just how much impact a player like him can have if not with the exact right crew? As with most things with Rubio... the truth is somewhere in the middle. A black/white type of player on the surface with a lot of gray areas that get missed as a result.

2. I wasn't only referring to advanced stats. FG% indicates Rubio sucks. And PPG, PER and other stats have him closer to the Brevin Knight level of player. There are SO MANY stats. We all pick and choose the ones we think serve our argument best. And in Ricky's case... they're so polarizing. As noted, his FG% sucks. But he's got a great VORP or something else. That disparity is what makes him a lightning rod type of player for both sides. (And even those in-between... where I find myself)

3. I think it's pretty clear that my beef isn't really with Rubio. It's the way he's been coddled since his first game in the L. Literally.

4. I'm very excited to rip/praise Rubio for his playoff performances.

Again, Rubio is +0.7 per 100 possesions this season. So, the team plays +.500 ball the minutes that he actually plays, but when he is on the bench, the team gets outscored by a lot and it's his fault somehow.

Only Steph Curry and Russ Westbrook have a better difference in on/off splits than Rubio. That's how freaking awful is this team every time Rubio hits the bench.

[AbeVigodaLive]

1. He hasn't won in Minnesota. That's not to say it's his fault. But it shouldn't be completely glossed over either... which I feel like it is at times like when I see multiple posts from multiple people claiming he's a "winner." What? Based on what? he's the only "top" PG who hasn't finished a season .500. Cursory cheap shot? Or meaningful about just how much impact a player like him can have if not with the exact right crew? As with most things with Rubio... the truth is somewhere in the middle. A black/white type of player on the surface with a lot of gray areas that get missed as a result.

2. I wasn't only referring to advanced stats. FG% indicates Rubio sucks. And PPG, PER and other stats have him closer to the Brevin Knight level of player. There are SO MANY stats. We all pick and choose the ones we think serve our argument best. And in Ricky's case... they're so polarizing. As noted, his FG% sucks. But he's got a great VORP or something else. That disparity is what makes him a lightning rod type of player for both sides. (And even those in-between... where I find myself)

3. I think it's pretty clear that my beef isn't really with Rubio. It's the way he's been coddled since his first game in the L. Literally.

4. I'm very excited to rip/praise Rubio for his playoff performances.

Again, Rubio is +0.7 per 100 possesions this season. So, the team plays +.500 ball the minutes that he actually plays, but when he is on the bench, the team gets outscored by a lot and it's his fault somehow.

Only Steph Curry and Russ Westbrook have a better difference in on/off splits than Rubio. That's how freaking awful is this team every team Rubio hits the bench.

Once again, my take is being misrepresented.

I never made that claim. I beg everybody to stop doing that... and I'll probably have very little to add to the thread and you'll be spared from my long-winded posts... mercifully.

[alexftbl8181 [enjin:6648741]]

Abe, why do you clearly hate Rubio.

He's not a great player, but he's the next Jason Kidd...

He's not a great shooter, but hey this advanced stat says he's a better shooter then these guys...

people here are tricky

[TeamRicky [enjin:6648771]]

Someone on the Knicks Board brought up a good point: "First, Ricky isn't injury prone, his first one (ACL) was a beat against Kobe's knee and the second one (ankle) was a bad jump over the defender foot. I'm watching him since he was 16 and I can't remember another injury. He can play 82 games of a RS.

Second, this isn't objective but I think he can improve his shot and the layups because both are product of lack of physical work, both aerobic and anaerobic. He couldn't work in the preseason and he was cleared to play in November and his legs are weak and he suffers at the last quarters. I I bet he can improve a lot and average more than 15 ppg and nobody will say he is overpaid, especially with the next collective bargain."

Ricky's injuries have cut into developmental time and affected this season. Sam said as much. Given his free throw shooting is very good and that his shooting outside of the fourth quarter (when he isn't fatigued) is ok, I think we shouldn't assume Ricky can't improve on his FG%. That said even with the low FG%, Ricky makes up for it in so many ways. With a FG% north of 40%, he'd be an allstar.