Keep Ricky in Minnesota

[alexftbl8181 [enjin:6648741]]

Man Rubio is such a difference maker, such a winner. Since Rubio came into the league only 4 teams have missed the playoffs in that time. So pretty much every team and every point guard has made the playoffs except him.

Oh but you want a "pass first" point guard to put with these young guys and not take shots. You know why Rubio is considered a "pass first" point guard, even though he's 5th in assists behind so called "shoot first" point guards? Because "pass first" is a polite way of saying a point guard who can't shoot.

Oh but it's not his "role" to shoot. His job is to pass and set up guys. You know why that's his "role"? It's because he can't shoot. If he could shoot, we wouldn't even be talking about his "role". It would be the same as saying Kevin Love is ok playing bad defense because his "role" is to shoot and to rebound.

Sorry but you can't be the best player/most important player/the most valuable player/the biggest X factor, or whatever Rubio has been described as, and not have to shoulder any blame for a team that hasn't even sniffed .500, much less make the playoffs which is pretty hard to do, going on 5 years now.

But yea of course, he should be Jason Kidd someday, because he was a guy who couldn't like shoot, then kinda learned how to shoot at the tail end of his career, as a role player, and won a championship, even though Rubio has yet to show improvement at all since his rookie year. But yea sure he's going to be Jason Kidd.

But hey I'm sure I'm wasting my time, people will just say "OH MAN how can you think Rubio is the ONLY reason why the Wolves stink?"

[TRKO [enjin:12664595]]

I know Ricky is a polarizing figure. He isn't horrible and he isn't a superstar. He is a league average PG. He does many things at an elite level, but his shooting ability pulls his overall game to average. You can win with him, and you can improve upon him. The worst possible thing we can do though is get rid of him just to get rid of him. There are worse PGs out there and creating a hole without a way to fix it is foolish.

[alexftbl8181 [enjin:6648741]]

I honestly don't think Conley would have made that much of a difference. Yes, we'd have gotten more points out of our PG position. But we'd have gotten fewer rebounds, fewer steals and fewer assists. Truth is, this team shouldn't have any trouble scoring points. We've seen that when Sam has been forced by injuries to play our young talented scorers over guys like KG and Prince who can't score anymore. As for our poor spacing, that's on Sam, not Ricky. I've been to all but one home game this season and I can assure you that the offense is designed to function inside the 3-point arc.

Oh my gosh, you mean we would lose a rebound and a steal a game? Man that's so important to winning, clearly on equal footing with being able to shoot. I remember all those wins the Wolves got because of those clutch rebounds Rubio got

[alexftbl8181 [enjin:6648741]]

I know Ricky is a polarizing figure. He isn't horrible and he isn't a superstar. He is a league average PG. He does many things at an elite level, but his shooting ability pulls his overall game to average. You can win with him, and you can improve upon him. The worst possible thing we can do though is get rid of him just to get rid of him. There are worse PGs out there and creating a hole without a way to fix it is foolish.

They haven't won with him!!!!!!!!! Get that out of your head people. In order to make that a factual statement, you can't have a winning percentage worse then every other starting point guard in the league.

[Hicks123 [enjin:6700838]]

Alright, I've got a genuine question for everyone. Cool, I'd be particularly interested in your response given your coaching background and your view that you cannot win consistently (in the playoffs) with a primary ballhandler who is not a threat to score.

And this is a genuine question because I don't know the answer. It's not a leading question where I'm implying that Ricky's flaws are not an issue.

How does Ricky generate Free Throws at a moderate rate given that he's such a poor shooter and a poor finisher at the rim? I can really understand the theory that in late game situations, opposition coaches should be forcing Rubio to beat us with outside shooting. But surely opposition teams should be instructed not to foul Ricky, because it gets him out of jail. With his ballhandling, is he just able to get to such dangerous spots more consistently, that the defence is forced to treat him as a threat? Is that sufficient to keep the defence honest and offset his poor shooting (at least to a large degree)? Or is it something that gets coached and prepared for during a 7 game series?

Quite a few questions in there in the end.

Ricky is very good at drawing fouls. It's a skill he has developed very well. But one thing you should look at is his 3 point play opportunities per shooting foul drawn. And then compare that to what Wiggins does, and you will see part of the problem. Also keep in mind that at the end of games officials tend to swallow their whistles a little bit. What was a foul in the middle of the 2nd quarter often isn't a foul in the 4th quarter when the refs want the players to decide the game. But trust me, in a 7 game series NBA coaches are going to force Ricky to beat them from the outside. If he can't develop the ability to make clutch outside shots, it is going to be very difficult to have him on the floor.

I know it was a long time ago but how does Rubio compare to Avery Johnson in 1999 where I remember the Wolves and every other team in the playoffs basically dared him to shoot in the playoffs and he hit enough of them for the Spurs to win a title?

That was a very different era. Heck, you can go back to 1987 and see teams daring Dennis Johnson to shoot from 17 feet. It's actually pretty remarkable to see the transformation in how the game is played.

Rondo in the 2008 (and 2010?) Finals is a more recent example though.


[Note: I remember watching those Avery Johnson teams and screaming for Avery Johnson to "just shoot it!" Avery was a career 48% shooter... and shot 49% in that playoff run. He averaged 17 ppg on 60% fg the previous postseason.]

I just don't see Rondo as a good comparison. While he clearly isn't a good distance shooter, he has a career FG% of 47%. He can score at the rim, and has also shown the ability to score in bunches when necessary....this is something Rubio just can't do. Heck, he has averaged over 19ppg in a playoff series several times in his career, including his 21ppg series against Mia in 2011 where he had a 44 point game. So while they are comparably bad long-distance shooters, Rondo has been able to contribute to his team as a scorer in a major way throughout his career. Heck, Rondo probably had more 20 point games in that one series with Miami than Rubio has had in his career.

[Phenom]

Man Rubio is such a difference maker, such a winner. Since Rubio came into the league only 4 teams have missed the playoffs in that time. So pretty much every team and every point guard has made the playoffs except him.

So unless Rubio is worse than all of those point guards this is a great example of how team supersedes individual play. Since advance stats tell us that Ricky is a plus, we should strive to add more pluses to him and make a real run at this thing. I like where you are going with this.

[AbeVigodaLive]

Alright, I've got a genuine question for everyone. Cool, I'd be particularly interested in your response given your coaching background and your view that you cannot win consistently (in the playoffs) with a primary ballhandler who is not a threat to score.

And this is a genuine question because I don't know the answer. It's not a leading question where I'm implying that Ricky's flaws are not an issue.

How does Ricky generate Free Throws at a moderate rate given that he's such a poor shooter and a poor finisher at the rim? I can really understand the theory that in late game situations, opposition coaches should be forcing Rubio to beat us with outside shooting. But surely opposition teams should be instructed not to foul Ricky, because it gets him out of jail. With his ballhandling, is he just able to get to such dangerous spots more consistently, that the defence is forced to treat him as a threat? Is that sufficient to keep the defence honest and offset his poor shooting (at least to a large degree)? Or is it something that gets coached and prepared for during a 7 game series?

Quite a few questions in there in the end.

Ricky is very good at drawing fouls. It's a skill he has developed very well. But one thing you should look at is his 3 point play opportunities per shooting foul drawn. And then compare that to what Wiggins does, and you will see part of the problem. Also keep in mind that at the end of games officials tend to swallow their whistles a little bit. What was a foul in the middle of the 2nd quarter often isn't a foul in the 4th quarter when the refs want the players to decide the game. But trust me, in a 7 game series NBA coaches are going to force Ricky to beat them from the outside. If he can't develop the ability to make clutch outside shots, it is going to be very difficult to have him on the floor.

I know it was a long time ago but how does Rubio compare to Avery Johnson in 1999 where I remember the Wolves and every other team in the playoffs basically dared him to shoot in the playoffs and he hit enough of them for the Spurs to win a title?

That was a very different era. Heck, you can go back to 1987 and see teams daring Dennis Johnson to shoot from 17 feet. It's actually pretty remarkable to see the transformation in how the game is played.

Rondo in the 2008 (and 2010?) Finals is a more recent example though.


[Note: I remember watching those Avery Johnson teams and screaming for Avery Johnson to "just shoot it!" Avery was a career 48% shooter... and shot 49% in that playoff run. He averaged 17 ppg on 60% fg the previous postseason.]

I just don't see Rondo as a good comparison. While he clearly isn't a good distance shooter, he has a career FG% of 47%. He can score at the rim, and has also shown the ability to score in bunches when necessary....this is something Rubio just can't do. Heck, he has averaged over 19ppg in a playoff series several times in his career, including his 21ppg series against Mia in 2011 where he had a 44 point game. So while they are comparably bad long-distance shooters, Rondo has been able to contribute to his team as a scorer in a major way throughout his career. Heck, Rondo probably had more 20 point games in that one series with Miami than Rubio has had in his career.

I was referring specifically to how LA guarded him with Kobe Bryant in the 2008 Finals. Bryant backed way off and dared Rondo to shoot, much like teams did to Avery Johnson.

[mrhockey89]

It astonishes me that so many people think that getting rid of the first legitimate starting PG we've had in years is the way to improve it.

The argument against Ricky is his shooting. At this point, despite still only being 24, I think we have to go into the future assuming his shooting is what it is and anything extra we get in that department is a bonus.

Ricky is amongst the league leaders at PG in...
Assists
Assist-to-Turnover Ratio
Steals
Rebounds

Then you have intangibles which won't show up on the stat sheet...
Leadership/Attitude
Making the right play (springing fast breaks, diving for loose balls, high energy/pesky defender, etc)
Basketball IQ
Vision

coolbreaz brings up that the problem is that we can't use Ricky at end-game situations. I disagree. Even with hack-a-Shaq defense Shaq was on the floor at end-game situations, and Ricky is more dangerous as a passer/scorer in that end-game scenario than Shaq was as a free throw shooter. Ricky has closed out multiple games this year by taking, and making, free throws down the stretch and not turning it over when he's been double teamed in full court press situations because he's got a great, safe, and SMART handle. In a close game, I'm more concerned about having guys on the floor with high basketball IQs to make sure they're making the right play in the right moment, and that's something he has in spades.

Everyone that says Ricky would make a great backup PG, I agree...so would Steph Curry, but that doesn't mean he's a backup PG caliber player.

If the goal is to win more basketball games, you don't do so by talking about how you can deal your best players, unless you can get high level players in return, and basketball trades don't usually come out even, and I find it unlikely that we'll find a team willing to give us an All-Star young player in return. And then what? Draft Dunn? I've read some very mixed reviews on him this season.

Based on Ricky's raw skill set in comparison with Zach Lavine's God given skill set, Lavine should be light years better than Rubio. Lavine could be very good, although I'd argue that Rubio was better at the same age as an overall contributor. So that begs the question...why is this team, right now, better with Rubio on the floor than Lavine in the same position? There are little things that come into play, but overall the biggest difference is basketball IQ. Like Q mentioned, sure you can trade Rubio for a guy that can score better like D'Angelo Russell but if you do, you're gambling on potential (and I like Russell).

Ultimately, here's four reasons the Wolves are perfectly fine with Rubio as the long-term answer at PG:
1) Offensive efficiency with him on the floor is the best we've had since Sam Cassell
2) In late game situations we now have a closer (Wiggins) who we can give the ball to and tell him to get to work
3) Rubio has several elite strengths and one glaring weakness, and he's selfless and self-aware enough to hide his weakness (by taking very few shots per game, yet still getting teammates easy shots), which emphasizing his strengths, something that few players do).
4) It's a proven model. Someone said name one championship team that had a terrible shooter as their primary ball handler. See Rajon Rondo of the Celtics.

If Sam Mitchell wanted to win more games he could have, but it'd involve playing some of the young guys less. It has nothing to do with our PG position.

[Coolbreeze44]

Hockey, if you're going to pin your hopes on the aberration (winning a title with Rondo starting), you might as well pin your hopes on Ricky becoming a much better shooter. The latter is much more likely to occur in this day and age.

Ricky is a liability at the end of games. You mention him getting to the free throw line and putting games away. I've seen way more instances of the ball ending up in his hands from 18 feet at the end of the shot clock and him missing badly. This isn't just my opinion. Trent Tucker said it on KFAN a couple weeks back, and so did Tim Legler.

[Monster]

Alright, I've got a genuine question for everyone. Cool, I'd be particularly interested in your response given your coaching background and your view that you cannot win consistently (in the playoffs) with a primary ballhandler who is not a threat to score.

And this is a genuine question because I don't know the answer. It's not a leading question where I'm implying that Ricky's flaws are not an issue.

How does Ricky generate Free Throws at a moderate rate given that he's such a poor shooter and a poor finisher at the rim? I can really understand the theory that in late game situations, opposition coaches should be forcing Rubio to beat us with outside shooting. But surely opposition teams should be instructed not to foul Ricky, because it gets him out of jail. With his ballhandling, is he just able to get to such dangerous spots more consistently, that the defence is forced to treat him as a threat? Is that sufficient to keep the defence honest and offset his poor shooting (at least to a large degree)? Or is it something that gets coached and prepared for during a 7 game series?

Quite a few questions in there in the end.

Ricky is very good at drawing fouls. It's a skill he has developed very well. But one thing you should look at is his 3 point play opportunities per shooting foul drawn. And then compare that to what Wiggins does, and you will see part of the problem. Also keep in mind that at the end of games officials tend to swallow their whistles a little bit. What was a foul in the middle of the 2nd quarter often isn't a foul in the 4th quarter when the refs want the players to decide the game. But trust me, in a 7 game series NBA coaches are going to force Ricky to beat them from the outside. If he can't develop the ability to make clutch outside shots, it is going to be very difficult to have him on the floor.

I know it was a long time ago but how does Rubio compare to Avery Johnson in 1999 where I remember the Wolves and every other team in the playoffs basically dared him to shoot in the playoffs and he hit enough of them for the Spurs to win a title?

That was a very different era. Heck, you can go back to 1987 and see teams daring Dennis Johnson to shoot from 17 feet. It's actually pretty remarkable to see the transformation in how the game is played.

Rondo in the 2008 (and 2010?) Finals is a more recent example though.


[Note: I remember watching those Avery Johnson teams and screaming for Avery Johnson to "just shoot it!" Avery was a career 48% shooter... and shot 49% in that playoff run. He averaged 17 ppg on 60% fg the previous postseason.]

I just don't see Rondo as a good comparison. While he clearly isn't a good distance shooter, he has a career FG% of 47%. He can score at the rim, and has also shown the ability to score in bunches when necessary....this is something Rubio just can't do. Heck, he has averaged over 19ppg in a playoff series several times in his career, including his 21ppg series against Mia in 2011 where he had a 44 point game. So while they are comparably bad long-distance shooters, Rondo has been able to contribute to his team as a scorer in a major way throughout his career. Heck, Rondo probably had more 20 point games in that one series with Miami than Rubio has had in his career.

I was referring specifically to how LA guarded him with Kobe Bryant in the 2008 Finals. Bryant backed way off and dared Rondo to shoot, much like teams did to Avery Johnson.

My point bringing up Acery Johnson was teams dared him to shoot it and at times he did and made enough shots. I didn't search to hard but I didn't find the data for where he took his shots till after that title season but based on his poor FT shooting and poor 3 point shot my guess is that he didnt take a lot of shots outside of the paint and the ones he did he generally shot a poor percentage like the data showed that I found. So teams may back off Rubio and dare him to shoot. Can he make enough of those shots or still make the plays needed? That's THE issue with Rubio right? Of course Rondo and Avery Johnson were playing with multiple future hall of famers. And other than making a reasonable jump to thinking Towns will be one of those guys...we have quite a ways to go before Rubio is the problem right?

People always point to Memphis and Tony Allen. Let's really look at that team for a minute when it comes to talent. Who was the other wing next to Allen? Who on that team is a sure fire HOFer? Was Tony Allen's inability to hit shots the only reason that team didn't advance? It sure was a part of it but I think every basketball mind and fan has said that Memphis was always that one player short of being a true contender and credit to them and make no mistake they are Avery good and talented team who has guys willing to make sacrifices to be a winning team but I would argue they lacked a little in the talent dept.

Questioning Rubio as the answer at PG is perfectly reasonable for basically all the reasons that are put forth but I also think it's quite possible you can win when it really matters with a guy that isn't a scorer. If Towns ends up as the starting C on this team and the rest of the lineup is competent in that regard Towns ridiculously versatile offensive game for a center could go a very long way to mitigate Rubio's weakness there especially since Towns seems to be a guy that literally score from anywhere on the floor and he is a 20 year old rookie.