Insider Wolves Article

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Lipoli390
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Re: Insider Wolves Article

Post by Lipoli390 »

longstrangetrip wrote:Lip, good post above. I share your enthusiasm for Zach, and agree that his performance at SG was a major reason for this team's improvement toward the end of the year. But I lean more toward the opinion of the pundits above regarding Zach's best role. Many of their comments are really quite positive about Zach. One of them actually mentions Zach as a potential 6th Man of the Year award winner. That's pretty exciting, because teams that have a player that wins this award often contend for championships.

If the Wolves keep starting Wig and Zach at the wing positions, I think they still make the playoffs next year. But the pundits were asked if the current starting lineup is likely to be the Wolves' playoff lineup, and I would have answered "no" also...and it has as much to do with Wig at the 3 as Zach at the 2. Thibs is a defense/rebounding kind of guy, and he is not going to be satisfied with Wig providing 3.6 rebounds per game at the SF position. Wig ranked 363rd in rebounds per 36 among all NBA players, and while that is marginally acceptable for a SG, it doesn't cut it for a starting SF on a good team. Plus, Wig has proven to be a more dominant defender at the 2 than at the 3. As Wig develops physically, he likely will become a very good NBA SF, but I think Thibs is going to want to play him more at the 2 until then.

Here's what you have to ask yourself: What is a better pair of starting wings next year...Wig/Zach, or Deng/Wig? I think anyone would say the latter, especially if it means you get Zach's offense off the bench. I think a Deng acquisition and Zach to 6th man is what Thorpe has in mind when he says the Wolves can win 55 games next year.


Long --

I think you're right that Thibs won't accept Wiggins' historic rebounding numbers at the SF position. If fact, recall that Thibs mentioned improved rebounding as something he expects to see from Wiggins. Wiggins' size and skill set are far more suited to
SF than SG. His ball handling is no where near decent SG level -- an even bigger gap than the gap between his rebounding and SF level. His passing is also sub-par for an NBA SG and not as good as LaVine's. So I think what Thibs has in mind (and should have in mind) is getting Wiggins to significantly improve his rebounding. Physically, he should be a very good rebounder.

Would I choose Deng/Wiggins over Wiggings/LaVine as my starting wing combo next year? Maybe next year but that's only assuming we retain LaVine and make him our sixth man. And even then I'm not sure for a several reasons. First, we'd lose a lot of 3-point shooting in our starting line-up on a team that's starved for 3-point shooting in a Leage that requires 3-point shooting for success. In fact, Towns would be our only good 3-point shooting in that starting lineup and his 3-point shooting is still in its infancy at the NBA level. Second, LaVine has demonstrated that he's at his best at SG next to Ricky. Third, there was a definite chemistry that developed last season between LaVine and the other starters, especially Wiggins and KAT. Beyond next season the answer I'd choose Wiggins/LaVine because of their age, chemistry and complementing skills sets on a young team that should peak in several years when Deng is on the decline (if he isn't already).

I haven't even factored in how much it would cost to sign Deng or the extent to which Deng's presence would stifle LaVine's development. There are opportunity costs as well. The money spend on Deng is money that could be spent on a player who won't displace one of our young guns with huge upside and 3-point shooting acumen. I think that would be a PF or C bumping Gorgui to the bench as a major part of our second unit. My first choice would be Noah. Yet, even Gorgui isn't someone I'd be eager to replace in the starting lineup given his improvement, worth ethic, intensity and performance last season. He's clearly a late-bloomer with the drive to improve. I've watched the enthusiasm brewing for Biyombo, but I'd take Gorgui in a heartbeat over Biyombo if given a choice between the two as my starting big next to KAT.

Although I'd be fine signing Noah, I see no compelling reason to spend big money to bring in a 28-32 year old veteran as a starter. We were a near .500 team under Sam post all-star break. With Thibs at the helm next season and with an entire summer for our current players to improve their games before next season, I'd be surprised if this team doesn't take the next developmental step and make the playoffs. The smart thing now is to roll with our young core starters from last season post all-star break, draft a guy like Hield or Dunn who will likely be able to contribute pretty quickly, and bring in one or two solid veteran role players who aren't in the geriatric category like Andre Miller or KG. We'll have a much better sense of what personnel changes need to be made after next season and we'll also probably have more cap space.
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Lipoli390
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Re: Insider Wolves Article

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longstrangetrip wrote:
monsterpile wrote:
Duke13 wrote:Great post Lip, I agree with you on Zack. For me he's my favorite player to watch on the team, maybe that's taking for granted the greatness of KAT.

LST, I agree with you about Wig, but I would say that's more of a Wig problem, he needs to get stronger or more willing to battle for boards, have better hands might help also. With Wig at the 2 you lose a lot of play making and a good secondary ball handler. I suppose you could go with the theory of putting Wig at the 2 forces him to get better and more comfortable with the ball in his hand, kinda like the Zack at PG experiment.
I think Lip is on his way to being an all star 2 guard. This is why I'm hesitant of signing a vet at the expense of development. I we're a playoff team as is, that why I lean towards continue developing while winning. If we win 40-45 next years that's a huge step. But with that said I understand and get why people wanna make that big splash this years. I'd prefer to do it next year. I'm rambling now and repeating myself.


"I think Lip is on his way to being an all star 2 guard."

I don't know he had that kinda game. Do you think he will give the Wolves a hometown discount? ;) Maybe all this time he has been saving his body for a playoff run?


Lip is an excellent poster, but his short arms limit his effectiveness on defense and on the boards...you don't rebound with your head.


I've always liked Duke's posts. They're generally filled with a lot of excellent basketball insights. But best ever was his insight into my potential as SG. He nailed it. Yes, my arms are short, but I make up for that with very big feet. :)
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Lipoli390
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Re: Insider Wolves Article

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Mikkeman wrote:
longstrangetrip wrote:Lip, good post above. I share your enthusiasm for Zach, and agree that his performance at SG was a major reason for this team's improvement toward the end of the year. But I lean more toward the opinion of the pundits above regarding Zach's best role. Many of their comments are really quite positive about Zach. One of them actually mentions Zach as a potential 6th Man of the Year award winner. That's pretty exciting, because teams that have a player that wins this award often contend for championships.

If the Wolves keep starting Wig and Zach at the wing positions, I think they still make the playoffs next year. But the pundits were asked if the current starting lineup is likely to be the Wolves' playoff lineup, and I would have answered "no" also...and it has as much to do with Wig at the 3 as Zach at the 2. Thibs is a defense/rebounding kind of guy, and he is not going to be satisfied with Wig providing 3.6 rebounds per game at the SF position. Wig ranked 363rd in rebounds per 36 among all NBA players, and while that is marginally acceptable for a SG, it doesn't cut it for a starting SF on a good team. Plus, Wig has proven to be a more dominant defender at the 2 than at the 3. As Wig develops physically, he likely will become a very good NBA SF, but I think Thibs is going to want to play him more at the 2 until then.

Here's what you have to ask yourself: What is a better pair of starting wings next year...Wig/Zach, or Deng/Wig? I think anyone would say the latter, especially if it means you get Zach's offense off the bench. I think a Deng acquisition and Zach to 6th man is what Thorpe has in mind when he says the Wolves can win 55 games next year.


I agree with this. Almost all playoff teams with strong wing scorer are starting defensively strong wing in other wing position. Oklahoma has Roberson, Toronto Carroll, San Antonio Danny Green, Miami Deng, Portland Aminu, Houston Ariza, Clippers Mbah a Moute and Golden State has Barnes. Only Indiana and Cleveland are starting wing known mainly from their offense (Ellis and Smith) next to their star wings Paul and LeBron. Having a good defender as other wing position helps those scoring wings to save more energy to offensive side and also avoiding getting foul trouble,


I wouldn't consider Danny Green or Harrison Barnes particularly good defenders. Moreover, a Deng/Wiggins wing combo would leave us woefully short in the 3-point shooting and ball-handling departments. Danny Green's more valuable attribute by far is his 3-point shooting. Roberson is fine next to a guy with Durant's perimeter shooting and Westbrook's all-around scoring and dribble penetration game. Moreover, a Deng/Wiggins wing combo would leave us woefully short in the 3-point shooting and ball-handling departments. The Thunder have 3 terrific ball-handlers in Westbrook, Roberson and Durant. The Wolves would have only one with a Deng/Wiggins combo.
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Lipoli390
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Re: Insider Wolves Article

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thedoper wrote:I'm with LST. I think you can be optimistic about Zach and still have him as a sixth man. Talented? Yes. All star? Not so sure. I think Zach's lows are still some of the more problematic on the team (along with Bazz who I also love). When Zach is bad he looks like he doesn't belong on the court. When he is good I understand the excitement.


You really need to look back and remember what Zach did post all-star break. There weren't many lows in that stretch, which is how he was able to compile such impressive post all-star stats. Look at his numbers and how the team did during that stretch and the case for Zach as our presumptive starter seems clear. He's definitely not an all-star yet, although anyone with a lick of basketball sense knows he has that potential. But Deng doesn't have all-star in his future either at a much higher price tag next season. And our SG doesn't have to be an all-star. We have KAT and hopefully Wiggins for that. No team has all-stars at every position.
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Duke13
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Re: Insider Wolves Article

Post by Duke13 »

"Lip is on his way to being an all star 2 guard" was a typo, LOL. I Zack, although the I don't doubt Lip's got a little game.
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Lipoli390
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Re: Insider Wolves Article

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Duke13 wrote:"Lip is on his way to being an all star 2 guard" was a typo, LOL. I Zack, although the I don't doubt Lip's got a little game.


Very little. :).
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KiwiMatt
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Re: Insider Wolves Article

Post by KiwiMatt »

Cheers for posting cool.

I'm with Engelman on this one in signing Batum and moving LaVine to 6th man. I think this team would really benefit with a player of his caliber and especially a point forward next to Wiggins on the wing in the starting lineup. Not to mentioned he's only 27! Defensively we would be so much better. LaVine would still get 30 mpg and be the focal point of our second unit. There should also been an incentive for him to push for 6th man of the year award.

Would look at Deng as an option if Batum signs elsewhere, but he is getting on in age and would prefer LaVine starting over him.
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Lipoli390
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Re: Insider Wolves Article

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Matt -- Batum is a closer call for me because of his age and passing ability. He seems a better fit for us than Deng even though I'm a big Deng fan.
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Re: Insider Wolves Article

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BizarroJerry wrote:I'm not excusing Wiggins for lack of rebounding (Thibs will improve on this, albeit only slightly I think), but how did our second half starting 5 do in team rebounding against the competition? I'm looking for your help Mikkeman.


Wolves had -2.7% rebounding difference with lineup Rubio, Lavine, Wiggins, Dieng and Towns. So it was pretty bad. In comparison they had -0.5% rebounding difference with lineup Rubio, Wiggins, Prince, KG and Towns. Difference doesn't seem to be that big but real difference is better visible if we look their defensive rebounding %. The group with Lavine and Dieng had 73.7 DRB% and the group with Prince and KG had it 81.2%. 81.2% would have ranked to top of all NBA teams and 73.7% would have ranked third lowest.
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longstrangetrip [enjin:6600564]
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Re: Insider Wolves Article

Post by longstrangetrip [enjin:6600564] »

Mikkeman wrote:
BizarroJerry wrote:I'm not excusing Wiggins for lack of rebounding (Thibs will improve on this, albeit only slightly I think), but how did our second half starting 5 do in team rebounding against the competition? I'm looking for your help Mikkeman.


Wolves had -2.7% rebounding difference with lineup Rubio, Lavine, Wiggins, Dieng and Towns. So it was pretty bad. In comparison they had -0.5% rebounding difference with lineup Rubio, Wiggins, Prince, KG and Towns. Difference doesn't seem to be that big but real difference is better visible if we look their defensive rebounding %. The group with Lavine and Dieng had 73.7 DRB% and the group with Prince and KG had it 81.2%. 81.2% would have ranked to top of all NBA teams and 73.7% would have ranked third lowest.


Thx for that, mikkeman. Some good discussion here, but absent a complete change in Wiggins on the boards, I still can't see thibs accepting his 3.6 RPG at the small forward position. Cam makes a very compelling case for Deng to be our PF, and I agree that could create a very powerful offensive starting lineup...the problem is everything else. Here are my issues with Deng at PF:

1) he averaged 6 RPG last season, about the same as he has for his career...acceptable for a SF, but not nearly acceptable for a PF. Now pair him with Wiggins' 3.6 rebounds per game, and our forwards would be pulling down fewer than 10 RPG combined. I think that would make us the worst rebounding team in the league...certainly not Thibs style

2) We all watched Deng shut down Derozen in the playoffs...I think most would say he did a much better job than James on Derozen. At age 30, Luol is still an elite wing defender. I don't know that forcing him to guard PFs is the best use of his defensive skills.

3) I agree with the pundits who see 6th man as Zach's best role. I love Zach, but there is a substantial amount of homerism involved in calling him a future all-star...very few if any objective analysts would predict that. But the guy can put up points quickly even at 21, and prolific bench scoring is exactly what this team needs. Let him continue to learn the NBA game starting games on the bench...he will be much more ready to be a complete 2-way starter at age 24 when Deng's 3-year contract is up.
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