The Playoffs

[mjs34]

You guys can't be serious about Simmons. I would lay him out if I ever had a chance to meet him. Just a horrible human being.

Just a question Cool do you listen to his podcasts at all. Or just his TV stuff, because IMO he comes off as a big douche on TV but I love his podcast, every Monday for the last two years I would sit down and listen to his 1 hour podcast.

Can't say I've listened to the podcasts. My dislike of him goes back to his treatment of David Kahn, believe it or not. That and his big market slant on everything. I just see him as a typical Boston reporter who has never known anything but privileged East Coast bias.

1. David Kahn deserved the insults... and there were many of them. He was not only arguably the worst GM of the modern era... he was smug and pretentious and woefully unqualified for the job. Oh, and he ate his own ear wax on live television.

2. Simmons has been a West Coast guy for the past decade. He's an LA Clippers season ticket holder...

Kahn was getting the insults from Simmons due to Bill being butt hurt. Simmons thought he should be given a chance at the Minny GM job, and when nobody took him seriously his rants on Kahn reached epic proportions. Kahn worked as an assistant GM under Donnie Walsh in Indy as well as having experience in the D league, so I am not sure how he was unqualified.

Billy King has well surpassed Kahn for the title of worst GM. Kahn took over a lousy ball club in salary cap hell, and turn them into a mediocre team that Flip took over. Not liking Kahn's personality or character should have little to do with whether he did his job or not. The fact that 3 of your 4 complaints fall into that category tells me that your feelings for him are clouding your judgement.

Simmons has been a diehard Celtics fan for his entire life, and continues to be one. He has season tickets to the clippers because he lives in LA. He would have season tickets to the wolves if he lived in Minny. He still bleeds Green.

[AbeVigodaLive]

1. Jordan
2. Magic
3. Wilt
4. Oscar
5. Jabbar
6. LeBron
7. Bird
8. Baylor
9. Shaq
10. Hakeem/Bryant

I had to cheat because I couldn't decide between Kobe and Hakeem. Of the current players, Durant probably makes the list by the time it's over. Duncan does not. The other candidates currently playing are too early in their careers to say. My list ranks players based on how they did against their peers, not how they would perform today. For example, I don't think Elgin Baylor would put up 27 and 14 against today's defenses, but he was the dominant player of his era.

LST, isn't Duncan the best power forward of all time? I think he has to be on there.

Duncan probably is the best PF, and I certainly considered him. But I can't find anyone on my list to replace.

I'd start with Elgin Baylor. That one leaps out at me. And I'd look at Oscar after that. Then, Bryant, Shaq and Hakeem.

[AbeVigodaLive]

You guys can't be serious about Simmons. I would lay him out if I ever had a chance to meet him. Just a horrible human being.

Just a question Cool do you listen to his podcasts at all. Or just his TV stuff, because IMO he comes off as a big douche on TV but I love his podcast, every Monday for the last two years I would sit down and listen to his 1 hour podcast.

Can't say I've listened to the podcasts. My dislike of him goes back to his treatment of David Kahn, believe it or not. That and his big market slant on everything. I just see him as a typical Boston reporter who has never known anything but privileged East Coast bias.

1. David Kahn deserved the insults... and there were many of them. He was not only arguably the worst GM of the modern era... he was smug and pretentious and woefully unqualified for the job. Oh, and he ate his own ear wax on live television.

2. Simmons has been a West Coast guy for the past decade. He's an LA Clippers season ticket holder...

Kahn was getting the insults from Simmons due to Bill being butt hurt. Simmons thought he should be given a chance at the Minny GM job, and when nobody took him seriously his rants on Kahn reached epic proportions. Kahn worked as an assistant GM under Donnie Walsh in Indy as well as having experience in the D league, so I am not sure how he was unqualified.

Billy King has well surpassed Kahn for the title of worst GM. Kahn took over a lousy ball club in salary cap hell, and turn them into a mediocre team that Flip took over. Not liking Kahn's personality or character should have little to do with whether he did his job or not. The fact that 3 of your 4 complaints fall into that category tells me that your feelings for him are clouding your judgement.

Simmons has been a diehard Celtics fan for his entire life, and continues to be one. He has season tickets to the clippers because he lives in LA. He would have season tickets to the wolves if he lived in Minny. He still bleeds Green.

I agree that Simmons was butthurt over his "was he really serious about getting the job" antics.

And I said Kahn was "arguably" the worst of the modern era. Personally, I think he was worse than King. King has a lot longer resume (dunno how he was hired by another organization) so there are more items of futility that we can point to... but Kahn's legacy was just so terrible to me.

I guess I should clarify my "modern" take too. Ted Stepien takes the cake for post-ABA/NBA merger. The league had to actually implement new rules to protect guys like Stepien from themselves.

As for Kahn's experience, he did work for the Pacers... mostly on the business side. And I don't think that was his downfall. It was on the scouting/analysis of players. And wasn't Kahn more of an owner than anything else with the D-League... a venture that didn't end well.

Other candidates for worst GM include: Scott Layden. Isiah Thomas. Elgin Baylor (but he might get a pass because he had D.Sterling in his ear or effectively forcing some of those decisions.)

[Coolbreeze44]

You guys can't be serious about Simmons. I would lay him out if I ever had a chance to meet him. Just a horrible human being.

Just a question Cool do you listen to his podcasts at all. Or just his TV stuff, because IMO he comes off as a big douche on TV but I love his podcast, every Monday for the last two years I would sit down and listen to his 1 hour podcast.

Can't say I've listened to the podcasts. My dislike of him goes back to his treatment of David Kahn, believe it or not. That and his big market slant on everything. I just see him as a typical Boston reporter who has never known anything but privileged East Coast bias.

1. David Kahn deserved the insults... and there were many of them. He was not only arguably the worst GM of the modern era... he was smug and pretentious and woefully unqualified for the job. Oh, and he ate his own ear wax on live television.

2. Simmons has been a West Coast guy for the past decade. He's an LA Clippers season ticket holder...

So let me make sure I don't misrepresent you here. You condone the treatment Simmons gave Kahn, not just during but before his tenure with the Wolves?

[Coolbreeze44]

As a guy who's more of an NBA fan... than just a Wolves fan... I dig the discussion in this thread.
A few comments:

1. Comparing superstars across eras is futile. Yes. Russell's era was inferior. We know that. And guys playing like they did then wouldn't be too successful against today's athletes. But what about context? What IF Russell had the same perks as modern athletes? Weight training. Diet. Guys to model his game after. Shoes with leather for chrissakes. Et al. Bottom line is that Russell won. Almost always. And he was a defensive force... and a decent offensive player.

2. I saw somebody rip Russell for shooting 44%. On its face, that sucks. But, again... eras. Cousy was a HOFer and MVP guy who shot 37.5% for his career. That 44% had Russell in the top 5 for shooting accuracy some seasons. And you also have to look at playoff performances. Russell upped his scoring/reb/assists in the playoffs. 16.1 ppg / 24.9 reb / 4.7 ast.

3. LeBron James is doing marvelous things with a team of cast-offs and never weres... and anything can happen in a 7-game series in the Finals. So I wouldn't even count out a title. But, beating Boston, Chicago and Atlanta this season has to be taken into context. None of them had a superstar player on it. And they didn't have a great supporting cast either. Atlanta has looked terrible. I'd give Cleveland all the credit or that... if it wasn't the trend through most of the playoffs already. That Wall injury may be the only reason they even made it this far.

The EAST is even worse than we thought.

4. All-time Top 10 list. They are insufferably silly/difficult... but they can also be fun and can create a ton of discussions. A lot of it comes down to what the criteria is... My list:

1. Jordan
2. Jabbar
3. Russell
4. Magic
5. Wilt
6. Bird
7. Duncan
8. James*
9. Shaq
10. Olajuwon

* James is moving up the list, almost daily. I see him ending anywhere between #5 and #2 when all is said and done. My prediction... #2.

[Note: I dislike LeBron James. I dislike Kobe Bryant too. But you gotta appreciate what each guy has done... and what LeBron continues to do. Heck, I disliked Jordan too. I root(ed) against all three almost every time they're on the court.]

Shaq over Kobe? And you have Russell too high. Other than that, not bad.

[longstrangetrip [enjin:6600564]]

1. Jordan
2. Magic
3. Wilt
4. Oscar
5. Jabbar
6. LeBron
7. Bird
8. Baylor
9. Shaq
10. Hakeem/Bryant

I had to cheat because I couldn't decide between Kobe and Hakeem. Of the current players, Durant probably makes the list by the time it's over. Duncan does not. The other candidates currently playing are too early in their careers to say. My list ranks players based on how they did against their peers, not how they would perform today. For example, I don't think Elgin Baylor would put up 27 and 14 against today's defenses, but he was the dominant player of his era.

LST, isn't Duncan the best power forward of all time? I think he has to be on there.

Duncan probably is the best PF, and I certainly considered him. But I can't find anyone on my list to replace.

I'd start with Elgin Baylor. That one leaps out at me. And I'd look at Oscar after that. Then, Bryant, Shaq and Hakeem.

Baylor is my favorite player of all time, so there's no way I can put Duncan above him, He was the definition of poetry on the court...smooth and athletic, and the first wing to play above the rim, even though he was only 6-5. And his stats are extraordinary...27.4. 13.5 and 4.3 for his career, without the benefit of the 3-point shot. And to complete the package, he was an incredible defender. Truly the entire package, and worthy of a top 5 spot on anyone's list. And I'll never forget that when the Lakers traveled to St. Louis to play the Hawks, Baylor had to stay in a separate hotel that allowed black guests.

Robertson averaged 25.7. 7.5 and 9.5 for his career, usually playing with a supporting cast that was not very good. In his second season, he AVERAGED a triple double...30.8, 12.5 and 11.4! And he shot almost 49% in an era when shooting percentages were not as good as today. I'll also add that Abdul Jabbar rates Jordan, James and Robertson as the three greatest players of all time, and he puts Oscar at the top of that trio. Nope, I can't put Duncan ahead of him either.

I have to agree with you, though, that Duncan is right up there with Hakeem, Kobe and Shaq. I think I need 12 players in my best players list, because Duncan would be #12.

[AbeVigodaLive]

As a guy who's more of an NBA fan... than just a Wolves fan... I dig the discussion in this thread.
A few comments:

1. Comparing superstars across eras is futile. Yes. Russell's era was inferior. We know that. And guys playing like they did then wouldn't be too successful against today's athletes. But what about context? What IF Russell had the same perks as modern athletes? Weight training. Diet. Guys to model his game after. Shoes with leather for chrissakes. Et al. Bottom line is that Russell won. Almost always. And he was a defensive force... and a decent offensive player.

2. I saw somebody rip Russell for shooting 44%. On its face, that sucks. But, again... eras. Cousy was a HOFer and MVP guy who shot 37.5% for his career. That 44% had Russell in the top 5 for shooting accuracy some seasons. And you also have to look at playoff performances. Russell upped his scoring/reb/assists in the playoffs. 16.1 ppg / 24.9 reb / 4.7 ast.

3. LeBron James is doing marvelous things with a team of cast-offs and never weres... and anything can happen in a 7-game series in the Finals. So I wouldn't even count out a title. But, beating Boston, Chicago and Atlanta this season has to be taken into context. None of them had a superstar player on it. And they didn't have a great supporting cast either. Atlanta has looked terrible. I'd give Cleveland all the credit or that... if it wasn't the trend through most of the playoffs already. That Wall injury may be the only reason they even made it this far.

The EAST is even worse than we thought.

4. All-time Top 10 list. They are insufferably silly/difficult... but they can also be fun and can create a ton of discussions. A lot of it comes down to what the criteria is... My list:

1. Jordan
2. Jabbar
3. Russell
4. Magic
5. Wilt
6. Bird
7. Duncan
8. James*
9. Shaq
10. Olajuwon

* James is moving up the list, almost daily. I see him ending anywhere between #5 and #2 when all is said and done. My prediction... #2.

[Note: I dislike LeBron James. I dislike Kobe Bryant too. But you gotta appreciate what each guy has done... and what LeBron continues to do. Heck, I disliked Jordan too. I root(ed) against all three almost every time they're on the court.]

Shaq over Kobe? And you have Russell too high. Other than that, not bad.

Dammit. I f'd up. I thought something looked funny with that list. I accidentally erased Kobe instead of dropping him a spot when I realized that James has caught him... and passed him. I even mentioned him in the NOTE section...

1. Jordan
2. Jabbar
3. Russell
4. Magic
5. Wilt
6. Bird
7. Duncan
8. James*
9. Bryant
10. Shaq/Olajuwon

Right now, #5 - #10 has become a crapshoot.

As for Russell... I would expect opinions to differ a lot on him. And depending on the criteria, I'm open to hear it. As I noted, it's very difficult to compare players from such vastly different eras.

[AbeVigodaLive]

1. Jordan
2. Magic
3. Wilt
4. Oscar
5. Jabbar
6. LeBron
7. Bird
8. Baylor
9. Shaq
10. Hakeem/Bryant

I had to cheat because I couldn't decide between Kobe and Hakeem. Of the current players, Durant probably makes the list by the time it's over. Duncan does not. The other candidates currently playing are too early in their careers to say. My list ranks players based on how they did against their peers, not how they would perform today. For example, I don't think Elgin Baylor would put up 27 and 14 against today's defenses, but he was the dominant player of his era.

LST, isn't Duncan the best power forward of all time? I think he has to be on there.

Duncan probably is the best PF, and I certainly considered him. But I can't find anyone on my list to replace.

I'd start with Elgin Baylor. That one leaps out at me. And I'd look at Oscar after that. Then, Bryant, Shaq and Hakeem.

Baylor is my favorite player of all time, so there's no way I can put Duncan above him, He was the definition of poetry on the court...smooth and athletic, and the first wing to play above the rim, even though he was only 6-5. And his stats are extraordinary...27.4. 13.5 and 4.3 for his career, without the benefit of the 3-point shot. And to complete the package, he was an incredible defender. Truly the entire package, and worthy of a top 5 spot on anyone's list. And I'll never forget that when the Lakers traveled to St. Louis to play the Hawks, Baylor had to stay in a separate hotel that allowed black guests.

Robertson averaged 25.7. 7.5 and 9.5 for his career, usually playing with a supporting cast that was not very good. In his second season, he AVERAGED a triple double...30.8, 12.5 and 11.4! And he shot almost 49% in an era when shooting percentages were not as good as today. I'll also add that Abdul Jabbar rates Jordan, James and Robertson as the three greatest players of all time, and he puts Oscar at the top of that trio. Nope, I can't put Duncan ahead of him either.

I have to agree with you, though, that Duncan is right up there with Hakeem, Kobe and Shaq. I think I need 12 players in my best players list, because Duncan would be #12.

My favorite player(s) of all time didn't automatically make the list. I don't care about poetry and smoothness. What I do know is that Baylor wasn't even the clearcut best/most important player on his team... see Jerry West. And with those two all-time greats, something was still amiss when the playoffs rolled around.

Baylor never won a title. (although bonus points for stepping away instead of forcing the issue and chasing a ring on that great 1972 Lakers squad.)

As for that entire eras comparison thing... imagine a player today playing only when given a weekend pass from the military and averaging 38 / 19 / 5 like Baylor did. That was also the Oscar Robertson triple double season and Wilt Chamberlain's 50 point season.

The pace of the game was insane and produced arcade like stats even among these young guys who dominated virtually from the moment they entered the league. Here's the thing though ... even with Wilt averaging 50 ppg. And Baylor's stunning season. And Oscar's triple double... Bill Russell still won MVP.

I wish any of us had access to those games like we have today. Our opinions of the era would hold a lot more merit.

[longstrangetrip [enjin:6600564]]

It's no surprise to anyone on this board that I am not a fan of Kevin Love as a man...pretty good PF, but just not my kind of guy. So I guess I really wasn't surprised when he didn't travel with his team for their two games in Atlanta. The Love Apologists out there said that he was not allowed to fly so soon after surgery, but other media members were left shaking their heads about Love's actions once again. Doctors wouldn't let him fly to Atlanta with the team in a cushy first class seat? Hmm...how did he get back to Cleveland days after his surgery in NY...wagon train?

Love's absence in Atlanta revved up the conjecture that he is leaving Cleveland. Love's agent has to be worried about Kevin's reputation with a big payday at stake, as he once again the subject of rumors that he is jumping ship for the second year in a row, so I'm convinced he advised Love to be behind the bench for Game 3...and Love was there. But based on what I heard, let's just say he wasn't exactly ML Carr, Mark Madsen or Ronny Turiaf back there...nary a towel was waved. I didn't notice him during the game, but I heard a report today that he looked positively bored at times.

Love wanted to be part of a team that was a winner, and now that he is, he finds a way to miss the first two games of the division championship. Somehow I don't think anyone on the Cavs missed him too much, except for maybe the equipment manager. This guy continues to be my least favorite guy in the NBA.

[TAFKASP]

The Cavs haven't missed a beat without Love. Given how poorly he fit in with their team and system they would be absolute fools to sign him to anything near max. A sign and trade is the obvious answer, Love to the Lakers for Randle?