Camden0916 wrote:Yeah, LeBron absolutely struggled that series. I'm not arguing that at all, but I didn't realize a seven-game series determined who was first or second fiddle when the guy carried that team all the way to that point.
(Jordan's in a class by himself. LeBron is a top-five guy, though, when he retires. That shouldn't even be debatable.)
I'd take Jordan, Russell, Magic, Bird and Duncan over him guaranteed right now. If Lebron keeps losing title matchups it's going to get worse.
I have LeBron right up there with all of them. the big difference is they all had terrific supporting casts, like LeBron did in Miami. Jordan had Pippen, Russell had Cousy. Magic had Kareem, Bird had McHale, and Duncan had Parker/Gniboli. And LeBron is on the verge of sweeping a division championship series with a starting cast of Shumpert, Mozgov, Dellavedova and Thompson! He's not likely to beat Golden State, but I would argue that none of the 5 guys you mention would beat GS with the four guys LeBron has beside him.
But they all would be able to do exactly what he is doing in beating a sub .500 Celtics, an offensively inept Bulls without Pau and a broken Hawks team that hasn't played well at all this post season and just scraped by. I don't think people realize just how bad this Eastern playoff race has been. He was given a clear path to the finals this year that they all would have been able to take advantage of. At the end of the day it would be loss 4 in the finals with a 2/6 record. He vaults himself in the top 5 if he can pull it off this year with this team, but if he keeps losing regardless of the surrounding cast I don't think he can move into the top 5. When it's equal at the top you have to start finding separators and that title record might be a negative separator for Lebron at the end of the day. Nobody can touch Jordan because he won 6 straight. Lebron can't do that, but outside of Russell (can't touch his 11) the other 3 aren't perfect in the finals either so Lebron has a chance to pass all 3, but I don't see it happening if he never wins another title.
Camden0916 wrote:Yeah, LeBron absolutely struggled that series. I'm not arguing that at all, but I didn't realize a seven-game series determined who was first or second fiddle when the guy carried that team all the way to that point.
(Jordan's in a class by himself. LeBron is a top-five guy, though, when he retires. That shouldn't even be debatable.)
I'd take Jordan, Russell, Magic, Bird and Duncan over him guaranteed right now. If Lebron keeps losing title matchups it's going to get worse.
I have LeBron right up there with all of them. the big difference is they all had terrific supporting casts, like LeBron did in Miami. Jordan had Pippen, Russell had Cousy. Magic had Kareem, Bird had McHale, and Duncan had Parker/Gniboli. And LeBron is on the verge of sweeping a division championship series with a starting cast of Shumpert, Mozgov, Dellavedova and Thompson! He's not likely to beat Golden State, but I would argue that none of the 5 guys you mention would beat GS with the four guys LeBron has beside him.
Without Kyrie playing none of the guys playing with Lebron are sure starters in this league. They have stepped up their games no doubt but why can't Lebron get some credit for that? Lebron is an odd wing superstar because he is a passing unselfish to a point and sometimes to a fault player. That finish against Atlanta where he was clearly hurting bigtime was pretty good.
Props to the Hawks that was a hell of a performance and that was a classic eastern conference game guys were diving for loose balls playing hard.
What stood out for me last night, monster, was how inept the Cavs were on offense when LBJ let Dellavedova run the point. But when they really needed a basket, James would wave Dellavedova away and break down the defense. He couldn't shoot worth a damn last night, but still it was one of the greatest performances I have ever seen.
Camden0916 wrote:Yeah, LeBron absolutely struggled that series. I'm not arguing that at all, but I didn't realize a seven-game series determined who was first or second fiddle when the guy carried that team all the way to that point.
(Jordan's in a class by himself. LeBron is a top-five guy, though, when he retires. That shouldn't even be debatable.)
I'd take Jordan, Russell, Magic, Bird and Duncan over him guaranteed right now. If Lebron keeps losing title matchups it's going to get worse.
I have LeBron right up there with all of them. the big difference is they all had terrific supporting casts, like LeBron did in Miami. Jordan had Pippen, Russell had Cousy. Magic had Kareem, Bird had McHale, and Duncan had Parker/Gniboli. And LeBron is on the verge of sweeping a division championship series with a starting cast of Shumpert, Mozgov, Dellavedova and Thompson! He's not likely to beat Golden State, but I would argue that none of the 5 guys you mention would beat GS with the four guys LeBron has beside him.
Without Kyrie playing none of the guys playing with Lebron are sure starters in this league. They have stepped up their games no doubt but why can't Lebron get some credit for that? Lebron is an odd wing superstar because he is a passing unselfish to a point and sometimes to a fault player. That finish against Atlanta where he was clearly hurting bigtime was pretty good.
Props to the Hawks that was a hell of a performance and that was a classic eastern conference game guys were diving for loose balls playing hard.
What stood out for me last night, monster, was how inept the Cavs were on offense when LBJ let Dellavedova run the point. But when they really needed a basket, James would wave Dellavedova away and break down the defense. He couldn't shoot worth a damn last night, but still it was one of the greatest performances I have ever seen.
Think about this: Lebron James is basically leading the November 2014 version of the NYK to the NBA Finals. While the East is as weak as ever (we can all agree there), he is single-handedly carrying a team of mediocre role players and borderline wing starters to the Finals. THINK ABOUT THAT!
You can have your own opinion of Lebron and that's totally fine, but its moments like this that just show how wide the gap is between a generational player like him and "other" guys like Carmelo Anthony.
Come on now. I respect the rings Bill has, but the league is a different beast than it was then with more teams to boot.
I was born in 1987, so I never saw Russell play. So I can't comment on that portion, but wouldn't less teams make it more impressive because the talent pool is much more concentrated with a few teams?
Guys I take over Lebron:
MJ
Bird
Magic
Kobe
Hakeem
I didn't see Erving, West, Robertson, Wilt, ect. So my list is a bit different.
I will say and this is way off topic, my favorite guy to go and watch on YouTube is Pistol Pete. That guy was fun to watch.
Come on now. I respect the rings Bill has, but the league is a different beast than it was then with more teams to boot.
I was born in 1987, so I never saw Russell play. So I can't comment on that portion, but wouldn't less teams make it more impressive because the talent pool is much more concentrated with a few teams?
Guys I take over Lebron:
MJ
Bird
Magic
Kobe
Hakeem
I didn't see Erving, West, Robertson, Wilt, ect. So my list is a bit different.
I will say and this is way off topic, my favorite guy to go and watch on YouTube is Pistol Pete. That guy was fun to watch.
The regular season AND playoffs were shorter back then. Less playoff wins needed to win a title, less time devoted to travel, more of an advantage in durability. Russell's not better than LeBron.
Also, I wouldn't take Hakeem or Kobe over LeBron when it's all said and done.
Come on now. I respect the rings Bill has, but the league is a different beast than it was then with more teams to boot.
I was born in 1987, so I never saw Russell play. So I can't comment on that portion, but wouldn't less teams make it more impressive because the talent pool is much more concentrated with a few teams?
Guys I take over Lebron:
MJ
Bird
Magic
Kobe
Hakeem
I didn't see Erving, West, Robertson, Wilt, ect. So my list is a bit different.
I will say and this is way off topic, my favorite guy to go and watch on YouTube is Pistol Pete. That guy was fun to watch.
The regular season AND playoffs were shorter back then. Less playoff wins needed to win a title, less time devoted to travel, more of an advantage in durability. Russell's not better than LeBron.
Also, I wouldn't take Hakeem or Kobe over LeBron when it's all said and done.
Magic is and was my favorite player of all time but it's really hard to put anyone above LeBron right now. He's just bigger stronger and more skilled than anyone else on the floor . He is willing his team to victories. He has no Pippen, Kareem, McHale or O'Neil on his team. Even when healthy Irving and love are nowhere near the players those guys were . Not yet anyways.
Come on now. I respect the rings Bill has, but the league is a different beast than it was then with more teams to boot.
I was born in 1987, so I never saw Russell play. So I can't comment on that portion, but wouldn't less teams make it more impressive because the talent pool is much more concentrated with a few teams?
Guys I take over Lebron:
MJ
Bird
Magic
Kobe
Hakeem
I didn't see Erving, West, Robertson, Wilt, ect. So my list is a bit different.
I will say and this is way off topic, my favorite guy to go and watch on YouTube is Pistol Pete. That guy was fun to watch.
The regular season AND playoffs were shorter back then. Less playoff wins needed to win a title, less time devoted to travel, more of an advantage in durability. Russell's not better than LeBron.
Also, I wouldn't take Hakeem or Kobe over LeBron when it's all said and done.
Here is why I pick Hakeem, because in the era of big men he was clearly the best. We may never see an era of elite dominating C play like that ever again. He went through Robinson (who is criminally underrated), Ewing, and Shaq to get his rings. He was unstoppable on offense and one of the best defenders this game has seen. Jordan and Bird didn't even have the equivalent glut of wing players they had to beat for titles. Magic didn't have the equivalent glut of PGs to beat. Same with Kobe and LeBron.
I pick Kobe over LeBron because he has that Jordan like drive. Kobe was the loser in what 2 titles and won 5. I know he had Shaq with him for 3, but he had to go through teams like Sacramento, Portland, and San Antonio. Sacramento back in the day would have probably won a couple titles if it weren't for the Lakers. Then Kobe won two where he was the clear cut guy. Pau was a great compliment piece, but he isn't and wasn't a superstar. Pau is an all star talent, but was never on Wade's level.
One thing Lebron has had that the other 5 guys I mentioned didn't have the luxury of is that weak Eastern conference. Who has been LeBron's toughest matchup in the east? The Celtics of a few years ago? The Bulls? The east has been weak for 10+ years.
The comparisons are fun and also very subjective especially when you go across eras especially back to Bill Russell. Imo when it comes to this stuff keep it fun celebrate the players accomplishments people see guys differently that's totally reasonable there have been a lot of really special players just in the past 30 years.
Lebron is a heck of a player and will go down as one of the best players of all time and this is coming from someone that's never really been a fan. I've just never connected with him for some reason. His game is a little different than anyone else I can think of. He is kind of a combination of Magic (passing) Jordan athletically (gifted and more of an attacking player) and KG (in that he is able to do just about anything really well) plus Lebron is built bigger than a guy like Artest. I'm not saying Lebron takes every good thing from those guys and makes him the best it's just he is a very unique guy not a take over at will scorer but a guy looking to pass but also is the most powerful wing player we may ever see but very explosive. It's a special and quite frankly odd combination because some of his traits seem opposite of what you might expect given his physical makeup.
