Coaching and Defense

[Carlos Danger]

I see a split on this board with regard to how to improve our defense. One camp believes we need new/different players i.e. "defensive anchor". The other camp thinks we just need to give this current group time and the right coach. I looked at the last ten years of Wolves teams (encompassing seven coaches) to see if it might show anything. Below is a year by year of our Drating with regard to the 30 teams in the NBA.

Season (Rank) Coach
2015-16 (29th) Mitchell
2014-15 (30th) Saunders
[highlight=#ddd123]2013-14 (12th) Adelman
2012-13 (13th) Adelman[/highlight]
2011-12 (25th) Adelman
2010-11 (27th) Rambis
2009-10 (27th) Rambis
2008-09 (25th) Wittman/McHale
2007-08 (27th) Wittman
2006-07 (21st) Casey/Wittman

That's a lot of shitty defenses except a couple good years with Adleman. Did he have better players? Or is it possible his coaching/system made the difference?

[Camden [enjin:6601484]]

Well, correct me if I'm wrong, but Adelman's Minnesota teams always rebounded well and they rarely put teams on the free throw line often. For those reasons, that spiked up their rating. If you search deeper, you'll find that they were terrible in protecting in the rim and I'd bet that teams were above average from behind the three-point line against us. One other thing to note, it's a lot harder to score on a team that plays well offensively because you're taking the ball out from under your own basket instead of being able to push the ball in transition. Those Adelman teams were lethal offensively, mainly because of Love, Rubio and Pekovic. Our offense helped our defense, if you understand what I'm saying.

The first step in righting our ship is hiring Thibs to whatever role he wants with the organization. I'm sure people are tired of reading me post that, but he's too damn good of a basketball mind to not pursue aggressively.

[Carlos Danger]

Well, correct me if I'm wrong, but Adelman's Minnesota teams always rebounded well and they rarely put teams on the free throw line often. For those reasons, that spiked up their rating. If you search deeper, you'll find that they were terrible in protecting in the rim and I'd bet that teams were above average from behind the three-point line against us. One other thing to note, it's a lot harder to score on a team that plays well offensively because you're taking the ball out from under your own basket instead of being able to push the ball in transition. Those Adelman teams were lethal offensively, mainly because of Love, Rubio and Pekovic. Our offense helped our defense, if you understand what I'm saying.

The first step in righting our ship is hiring Thibs to whatever role he wants with the organization. I'm sure people are tired of reading me post that, but he's too damn good of a basketball mind to not pursue aggressively.

I get what you are saying about good rebounding (K Love comes to mind). And maybe Drating isn't even the best way to measure - IDK. I just use BBReference a lot and happened to notice we have consistently been a horrible rating with the exception of the Adelman years. And I understand your point of great offense taking pressure off your defense. But my larger point is that when I look at the players Adelman had - I don't see anything greater than the core we have now (although they were more experienced). I'm in the camp that coaching/scheme is just as important as players. Maybe I'm over estimating - IDK. But I saw something on Yahoo about the Bulls frustration with Hoiberg's defense compared to Thibbs. It seems pretty clear some coaches require a higher standard than others with regard to defensive effort. I think Flip was mostly an offensive coach and most of the country club replacements have been the same.

[Coolbreeze44]

Well, correct me if I'm wrong, but Adelman's Minnesota teams always rebounded well and they rarely put teams on the free throw line often. For those reasons, that spiked up their rating. If you search deeper, you'll find that they were terrible in protecting in the rim and I'd bet that teams were above average from behind the three-point line against us. One other thing to note, it's a lot harder to score on a team that plays well offensively because you're taking the ball out from under your own basket instead of being able to push the ball in transition. Those Adelman teams were lethal offensively, mainly because of Love, Rubio and Pekovic. Our offense helped our defense, if you understand what I'm saying.

The first step in righting our ship is hiring Thibs to whatever role he wants with the organization. I'm sure people are tired of reading me post that, but he's too damn good of a basketball mind to not pursue aggressively.

And whenever I see you bring it up, I'm going to remind you that I think he's far from the best fit for this team and group of players.

[Q12543 [enjin:6621299]]

I think the biggest proof point of how coaching can impact defense is Steve Clifford in Charlotte. They went from dead last to 5th in Drtng in one season and the only significant player personnel change they made was add Al Jefferson at Center. Remember him? He was on some of those shitty defenses you referenced above! However, they did get rid of Mike Dunlap and hired Steve Clifford. They have been a top 10 defense ever since.

The other before and after example with multiple teams is Scott Skiles. The team he takes over ALWAYS makes a big leap defensively from the prior year. Go look at Chicago, Milwaukee and Orlando the year before he took over and the year after. In every single case, there is a big step forward defensively.

Thibs took Chicago from 11th the year prior under Del Negro to 1st in his very first year with them. Again, that's 10 spots higher - a huge leap forward.

I think you definitely need a few players that inherently have the right mental makeup and talent to defend, but after that, the right coach can get everyone else to fall in line.

[AbeVigodaLive]

I think the biggest proof point of how coaching can impact defense is Steve Clifford in Charlotte. They went from dead last to 5th in Drtng in one season and the only significant player personnel change they made was add Al Jefferson at Center. Remember him? He was on some of those shitty defenses you referenced above! However, they did get rid of Mike Dunlap and hired Steve Clifford. They have been a top 10 defense ever since.

The other before and after example with multiple teams is Scott Skiles. The team he takes over ALWAYS makes a big leap defensively from the prior year. Go look at Chicago, Milwaukee and Orlando the year before he took over and the year after. In every single case, there is a big step forward defensively.

Thibs took Chicago from 11th the year prior under Del Negro to 1st in his very first year with them. Again, that's 10 spots higher - a huge leap forward.

I think you definitely need a few players that inherently have the right mental makeup and talent to defend, but after that, the right coach can get everyone else to fall in line.

A good coach (e.g., system) can lead a team to be decent or even good defensively without having great defenders up and down the roster.

A player with the ability to be good defensively may not be effective if he's not put in the best places to succeed.

In the past few years... as the NBA has become a bit more nuanced and advanced with strategies... I've gone from coaches don't really matter to "I really hope Sam Mitchell doesn't stay because he hurts the team significantly."

[Q12543 [enjin:6621299]]

I think the biggest proof point of how coaching can impact defense is Steve Clifford in Charlotte. They went from dead last to 5th in Drtng in one season and the only significant player personnel change they made was add Al Jefferson at Center. Remember him? He was on some of those shitty defenses you referenced above! However, they did get rid of Mike Dunlap and hired Steve Clifford. They have been a top 10 defense ever since.

The other before and after example with multiple teams is Scott Skiles. The team he takes over ALWAYS makes a big leap defensively from the prior year. Go look at Chicago, Milwaukee and Orlando the year before he took over and the year after. In every single case, there is a big step forward defensively.

Thibs took Chicago from 11th the year prior under Del Negro to 1st in his very first year with them. Again, that's 10 spots higher - a huge leap forward.

I think you definitely need a few players that inherently have the right mental makeup and talent to defend, but after that, the right coach can get everyone else to fall in line.

A good coach (e.g., system) can lead a team to be decent or even good defensively without having great defenders up and down the roster.

A player with the ability to be good defensively may not be effective if he's not put in the best places to succeed.

In the past few years... as the NBA has become a bit more nuanced and advanced with strategies... I've gone from coaches don't really matter to "I really hope Sam Mitchell doesn't stay because he hurts the team significantly."

Yeah, I don't know this for a fact, but it seems like the nuances escape Mitchell. I know we've seen Rubio try to go over ball screens on guys that in fact he should go under because they aren't great shooters (kind of like him). Is that Rubio's fault or the coaching staff's fault for not properly scouting and adjusting? Going over screens leaves a team vulnerable to dribble drive penetration, where our bigs have to effectively cover two guys at once. It's necessary with really good shooters in order to avoid giving up the open 3, but with others you can go under that screen.

Anyway, just one example.....

[Coolbreeze44]

I think the biggest proof point of how coaching can impact defense is Steve Clifford in Charlotte. They went from dead last to 5th in Drtng in one season and the only significant player personnel change they made was add Al Jefferson at Center. Remember him? He was on some of those shitty defenses you referenced above! However, they did get rid of Mike Dunlap and hired Steve Clifford. They have been a top 10 defense ever since.

The other before and after example with multiple teams is Scott Skiles. The team he takes over ALWAYS makes a big leap defensively from the prior year. Go look at Chicago, Milwaukee and Orlando the year before he took over and the year after. In every single case, there is a big step forward defensively.

Thibs took Chicago from 11th the year prior under Del Negro to 1st in his very first year with them. Again, that's 10 spots higher - a huge leap forward.

I think you definitely need a few players that inherently have the right mental makeup and talent to defend, but after that, the right coach can get everyone else to fall in line.

A good coach (e.g., system) can lead a team to be decent or even good defensively without having great defenders up and down the roster.

A player with the ability to be good defensively may not be effective if he's not put in the best places to succeed.

In the past few years... as the NBA has become a bit more nuanced and advanced with strategies... I've gone from coaches don't really matter to "I really hope Sam Mitchell doesn't stay because he hurts the team significantly."

Yeah, I don't know this for a fact, but it seems like the nuances escape Mitchell. I know we've seen Rubio try to go over ball screens on guys that in fact he should go under because they aren't great shooters (kind of like him). Is that Rubio's fault or the coaching staff's fault for not properly scouting and adjusting? Going over screens leaves a team vulnerable to dribble drive penetration, where our bigs have to effectively cover two guys at once. It's necessary with really good shooters in order to avoid giving up the open 3, but with others you can go under that screen.

Anyway, just one example.....

How about the ridiculous fact that no one knows how to properly close out on a shooter? You sure as hell don't need Thibs to teach that basic skill.

[Camden [enjin:6601484]]

Okay, Cool, I'd like an in depth retort from you on why Thibs is "far from the best" fit here as a head coach. I know that's your stance and that's fine with me that we disagree, but I'd like to know more than just your opinion. I'd like the reasons behind it. If all you have is the "Thibs runs his players into the ground" fable, then that doesn't cut it for me, but I assume you have more than that though because you have a basketball background as a coach. You know the game well enough to talk about schemes, player/system fit and so on.

This is me respectfully asking for more of an explanation, not me coming at you in any vicious or aggressive manner. I'm simply wanting the opposing stance in a more detailed layout. Might be good for the board to hear the "why not Thibs" angle.

[Shumway]

Okay, Cool, I'd like an in depth retort from you on why Thibs is "far from the best" fit here as a head coach. I know that's your stance and that's fine with me that we disagree, but I'd like to know more than just your opinion. I'd like the reasons behind it. If all you have is the "Thibs runs his players into the ground" fable, then that doesn't cut it for me, but I assume you have more than that though because you have a basketball background as a coach. You know the game well enough to talk about schemes, player/system fit and so on.

This is me respectfully asking for more of an explanation, not me coming at you in any vicious or aggressive manner. I'm simply wanting the opposing stance in a more detailed layout. Might be good for the board to hear the "why not Thibs" angle.

Cam, I'm much more of an observer than a contributor on this board, so I'd like to say it's great to have you here contributing to this board. Previous disagreements got pretty heated on this board at times, and when you left for a while, I didn't expect you'd be back. It looks like you have really learned from your experiences and come back with all of your expertise, opinions and analysis and it appears you're now cognisant of always presenting that in a constructive manner. It is so easy for people to dig their heals in when they face criticism, so I have an enormous amount of respect for your approach now.

And this sentiment is really extended to everyone who posts on this board. It's a great community here where people have some genuinely great insights into basketball and despite the frustration of differing opinions, it is predominantly a very respectful environment. It's sometime difficult to really understand the tone or context of written text, so to maintain such an environment on a message board is a credit to all who contribute.

Cool, over to you to elaborate on your opinion on Thibs.