Carlos Danger wrote:It's tough. I don't want to be the guy that supports Kahn. But in this instance, I will say that we have to try and go back in time and look at the info available at that moment (vs. current hindsight). I remember Rubio was supposed to be off the board by our #5 pick. When he fell and was available to us, it seemed like a miracle/no brainer pick. The next pick (Flynn) was a surprise and we all look back at is as a disaster. But when I google mock drafts from that time, Flynn was considered a top 10 guy in many mocks.
http://www.nba.com/2009/news/features/06/10/consensus/
I seem to recall the thought process at the time was that it was going to take a couple years to get Rubio over here (which was true). I assume they were thinking if Flynn didn't work out, they'd have Rubio in their back pocket. And if they both work out - they'd have a trade asset. Not really the worst plan.
Also, we all know the draft is a bit of a crap shoot. Thabeet at #2 was also a consenus top 3 pick many hoped would drop to us at #5. As bad as that draft turned out for us....think about if we got Thabeet at #5 and Flynn at #6 - lol!
My problem with taking 2 PGs that high was the ridiculous depth of the position. My favorite after Rubio was Lawson but Darren Collison was an option too if Rubio didn't come over and it turns out he could play.
The weird thing about Kahn was he went upside so much with acquisitions and then the one draft he could have done that he went with the safe pick of Wes over Cousins who was at least equal in talent to Wall in that draft at the top and I really felt he was more talented than Wall. I left that pick up to the Wolves FO because I didn't know all the inside info on Cousins and in theory Wes was a nice player to slot in if he had turned out to even just be a good player. It's just nice we have a nice new era and move beyond that one.
My problem with taking 2 PGs that high was the ridiculous depth of the position. My favorite after Rubio was Lawson but Darren Collison was an option too if Rubio didn't come over and it turns out he could play.
The weird thing about Kahn was he went upside so much with acquisitions and then the one draft he could have done that he went with the safe pick of Wes over Cousins who was at least equal in talent to Wall in that draft at the top and I really felt he was more talented than Wall. I left that pick up to the Wolves FO because I didn't know all the inside info on Cousins and in theory Wes was a nice player to slot in if he had turned out to even just be a good player. It's just nice we have a nice new era and move beyond that one.
Monster, the Wes over Cousins pick gets revisited often too. But again - I think people forget the info we had at that time (vs. what we know now). Here was the consensus mock drafts from that time:
http://www.nba.com/2010/news/05/18/consensus.mock/
Wes was considered an NBA ready guy and best player available at that slot when we drafted. Cousins had all sorts of red flags due to character issues (which proved to be true). I wanted Cousins. But I understood why teams would pass. You take a huge risk when you draft guys like Johnny Manziel. Cousins was sort of that type of risk.
Comparing Cousins to Manziel is odd, in my opinion. Cousins had all the talent and measurables to be a star in his sport despite his character flaws. The only drawback with him was his potential to hurt a locker room, but you knew he'd perform at a high level on the court. Manziel was never a lock to be a high profile NFL QB. He had questionable accuracy, decision making and size concerns that could hold him back at the next level PLUS the red flags with his character. It's not comparable for me.
lipoli390 wrote:I knew about it. I was told by someone I knew in the organization, but I remember it was actually reported at the time. But we still should have drafted Curry. I remember thinking that Curry might now like being drafted by MN, but he wasn't the sort to refuse to play and the NBA's CBA didn't give him that option. I also remember thinking that we we would have had great trade leverage with other teams that were reported to be very hot for Curry, including the Knicks, Suns, Warriors and Raptors. My next favorite on the board after Curry was DeRozan. We certainly could have swapped the draft rights to Curry for the draft rights to DeRozan and other assets. Or we could have taken DeRozan instead of Flynn having already taking a pure PG in Rubio.
The point is this: You draft the best player available and let the chips fall, especially when your team, like the Wolves at that time, isn't in a position to focus on filling specific needs. Even worse to take a pure PG like Flynn with the idea that he'd play next to a pure PG named Rubio. So Kahn was an idiot for how he handled that draft, not just for everything else he did. :)
I will add to this that Kahn later admitted he didn't think Curry would be able to translate at this level. It looks even moronic now than when he admitted it. Honestly I can live with that take because I didn't think Curry was worth taking that high but like Lip said I would have leveraged the pick to someone that wanted Curry because it seemed obviously very valuable.
Monster -- I'd forgotten that Kahn said that. But now I remember. So Kahn drafts Flynn and then hires a head coach whose offense was premised on the triangle, which was absolutely and obviously ill-suited to Flynn's game. Speaking of Kahn's many moments of stupidity, how about his comment to a group of us at a season ticket-holder gathering that Love was at best the 4th best player on a championship contender. Now I know Love's tenure with the Cavs underscores that Love is definitely not the best or even second best player on a championship team. But he to say he's "at best" the 4th best was ridiculous. And even if correct, to say that publicly to a group of season ticket holders was beyond stupid.
Kahn turned out to be wrong about a lot of things, but I think he's turning out to be right about Kevin Love, from that comment to not giving him the 5 year max.
As for Rambis, remember, when Rambis was hired he said he would only use some elements of the triangle but mainly run and gun. In many ways, Rambis made fools out of everyone because he didn't bother budging on the triangle.
I'm still looking for Cousins' talent to have a significant positive impact on the fortunes of his team. I've seen him have a negative impact several times. Still waiting for this great talent to push his team to even 30 wins. I mean if we truly missed out on such a great player, where is the net positive impact on his franchise?
lipoli390 wrote:I knew about it. I was told by someone I knew in the organization, but I remember it was actually reported at the time. But we still should have drafted Curry. I remember thinking that Curry might now like being drafted by MN, but he wasn't the sort to refuse to play and the NBA's CBA didn't give him that option. I also remember thinking that we we would have had great trade leverage with other teams that were reported to be very hot for Curry, including the Knicks, Suns, Warriors and Raptors. My next favorite on the board after Curry was DeRozan. We certainly could have swapped the draft rights to Curry for the draft rights to DeRozan and other assets. Or we could have taken DeRozan instead of Flynn having already taking a pure PG in Rubio.
The point is this: You draft the best player available and let the chips fall, especially when your team, like the Wolves at that time, isn't in a position to focus on filling specific needs. Even worse to take a pure PG like Flynn with the idea that he'd play next to a pure PG named Rubio. So Kahn was an idiot for how he handled that draft, not just for everything else he did. :)
I will add to this that Kahn later admitted he didn't think Curry would be able to translate at this level. It looks even moronic now than when he admitted it. Honestly I can live with that take because I didn't think Curry was worth taking that high but like Lip said I would have leveraged the pick to someone that wanted Curry because it seemed obviously very valuable.
Monster -- I'd forgotten that Kahn said that. But now I remember. So Kahn drafts Flynn and then hires a head coach whose offense was premised on the triangle, which was absolutely and obviously ill-suited to Flynn's game. Speaking of Kahn's many moments of stupidity, how about his comment to a group of us at a season ticket-holder gathering that Love was at best the 4th best player on a championship contender. Now I know Love's tenure with the Cavs underscores that Love is definitely not the best or even second best player on a championship team. But he to say he's "at best" the 4th best was ridiculous. And even if correct, to say that publicly to a group of season ticket holders was beyond stupid.
Kahn turned out to be wrong about a lot of things, but I think he's turning out to be right about Kevin Love, from that comment to not giving him the 5 year max.
Fantastic point. This was a spirited discussion we had many times on the board. It was one time I sided with Kahn.
Camden wrote:Comparing Cousins to Manziel is odd, in my opinion. Cousins had all the talent and measurables to be a star in his sport despite his character flaws. The only drawback with him was his potential to hurt a locker room, but you knew he'd perform at a high level on the court. Manziel was never a lock to be a high profile NFL QB. He had questionable accuracy, decision making and size concerns that could hold him back at the next level PLUS the red flags with his character. It's not comparable for me.
It's not odd at all IMO. My point was simply that teams shy away from guys with character issues. That's a widely accepted fact. So when people keep wondering 10 years later why any team would have picked Wes over Cousins, I remind them that at the time - Cousins had some big red flags that scared some teams away. Regarding Manziel - he had plenty of believers that he could be an NFL QB. Mel Kiper (who's a pretty respected draft analyst) put him down as #1 overall on his first mock draft. His character issues contributed to him sliding down in the draft - just like Cousins.
Edit: Link to Kiper's 1st mock: http://bleacherreport.com/articles/1924476-mel-kiper-nfl-mock-draft-2014-analyzing-espn-gurus-1st-mock
Just to clarify I was only making the point that it was odd Kahn was willing to take on Beas Darko AR types even if the price was next to nothing and then pass on Cousins who was clearly the best talent. Kahn did a lot of swinging for the fences with his moves but not that one. I was very torn on that pick and I am not actually ripping Kahn for not taking Cousins. I would have had a hard time deciding what to do of I had been in his shoes based on the info I had at the time and remember the Wolves had Pek and Love at the time also. Of course it turns out even if Pek would have stayed healthy all 3 of those guys could have probably played with each other. What hurts more than the guys we passed up is that Flynn Wes and Williams were basically worthless to this team they weren't even trade assets. Oddly out of all of them the guy that brought back the most was Flynn.
monsterpile wrote:Just to clarify I was only making the point that it was odd Kahn was willing to take on Beas Darko AR types even if the price was next to nothing and then pass on Cousins who was clearly the best talent. Kahn did a lot of swinging for the fences with his moves but not that one. I was very torn on that pick and I am not actually ripping Kahn for not taking Cousins. I would have had a hard time deciding what to do of I had been in his shoes based on the info I had at the time and remember the Wolves had Pek and Love at the time also. Of course it turns out even if Pek would have stayed healthy all 3 of those guys could have probably played with each other. What hurts more than the guys we passed up is that Flynn Wes and Williams were basically worthless to this team they weren't even trade assets. Oddly out of all of them the guy that brought back the most was Flynn.
It's getting late - so I'm going from memory vs. looking up...but, I don't think we gave up much (if anything) to sign the guys you list (Darko and the gang). And I don't think any of those were big contracts either. In other words, they were low risk/high reward which was Kahn's strategy.
With a top 5 draft pick though...there is high risk. A GM's legacy is created by those picks. I recall Cousins as not only having mental issues, but also concerns over his weight/conditioning. That's certainly enough red flags to make you think twice about picking him at #4. The risk goes down the farther they fall down in the draft order.
CoolBreeze44 wrote:I'm still looking for Cousins' talent to have a significant positive impact on the fortunes of his team. I've seen him have a negative impact several times. Still waiting for this great talent to push his team to even 30 wins. I mean if we truly missed out on such a great player, where is the net positive impact on his franchise?
I get what you are saying and I am not the biggest cousins guy ever but still would take him in a heart beat. But the kings are just as big of a joke as the wolves there draft picks since cousins.
Jimmer: Bust
Thomas Robinson:Bust
Ben McLemore: Looking like a bust
Stauskas: Bust
WCS: could be a solid role player.
It is hard to win in a place where big free agents don't come if you draft that shitty
