With a ball dominate PG who can't score, how should a team be constructed?

[markkbu [enjin:6588958]]

Disclaimer: I like Rubio.....I like watching him play.....I love his heart.....I think that he will be one of the better PGs in the league at some point in him career.



I have never heard of a team with a Ball-dominate PG who is the 5th scoring option on the floor at all times. I truely love pro basketball and have followed it since the MN got a team. So I like to think that I understand how a number of different teams have been constructed.

I still can't figure this out though. If Rubio were a shut-down defender, it might be easier to figure out. As it stands right now, he is a pretty good defender (I understand that some think that he is better than "pretty good", I don't. But we all can agree that he isn't close to a shut-down defender)

To put this issue in perspective, there are 5 players who average over 30 minutes per game that average under 10 ppg. They are DeAndre Jordan, C, LAC,......Ricky......Kirk Hinrich, PG/SG, CHI,................ PJ Tucker, SF, PHO,.....and Robin Lopez, C,POR.

Kirk has no business playing over 20 MPG and wouldn't, but Rose is hurt. Tucker is a defensive glue guy that allows the guards in PHO to go on crazy scoring binges, so him not scoring makes sense to me (in a perfect world Brewer would be more like Tucker and shoot as infrequently as Tucker). Jordan and Lopez are defensive centers. Both are in the top 10 among centers in BPG.


Cont.......

[markkbu [enjin:6588958]]

cont...

So, we all can see that no other team is built around a PG that can't put points on the board. The other people that play a lot and don't score either; shouldn't be playing alot, or are defensive specialists at the wing or big positions.

So no one complains about sample size on this one.....last year their were 2 guys that played over 30 min and averaged under 10 ppg......both defensive SF on bad teams. The year before that, there were 0. The year before that...there were 4....Calderon, who played for a very bad Toronto team.......Larry Fields, defensive SF on a bad team.......Raja Bell, a SG on a not good Utah team...........

......and...........

Jason Kidd on the World champion Mavs.

Who would have thought?.....I didn't realize that he was soooo non existent in the scoring department. He averaged about .8 less than Rubio is currently averaging.

So over the past 4 years we have only found 1 example of a ball dominate PG that doesn't score much on a good team. And it just so happens that JJ was on that team too.

If anyone wants to research this beyond the past 4 years please share your results.....

Now, onto looking at the Mavs (the 1 time that I know of that it has been done well) and see how we compare

cont.........

[AbeVigodaLive]

And let's be honest, Kidd on the Mavs had a very different role than Rubio has on the Wolves... He rarely went inside the 3 point arc.

Somebody did mention the similarities between that squad (talent wise) and the Wolves this season elsewhere. And how much more Dallas got out of it than the Wolves have.



[Note: To be fair, Brewer was an afterthought on that team... a bit different than his role now.]

[markkbu [enjin:6588958]]

...cont....

If you ever want to look at a good shooting deep team, look at the 10-11 Mavs.....

breaking it down the 10-11 Mavs more specifically.

C. Tyson Chandler. One of the better rim protectors to play the game recently. A great teammate. Never needed to be passed the ball to be effective.

PF. One of the most complete players ever to play in the NBA. He rebounds, shoots from outside, can play the post, very good with the ball for penetration for a PF and a pretty good defender.

SF Marion. An excellent 2 way player. Very good defender. Rarely shots the 3. Gets to the basket very well.

SG. Stevenson. Excellent outside shooter. Doesn't shoot much. Vast majority of his shots were 3pters. A hard nosed defender.

PG. Kidd. Great passer. Good defender. Very good team defender. Very good outside shooter.


Bench. The bench on this team was amazing.

Jason Terry. The primary scoring threat off the bench. Played over 30 MPG. Very good 3 pt shooter. Pretty good passer. Can score on the break and can drive.

JJ. Averaged around 20 MPG. Was used as a spark off the bench when needed. A lot of variance by game in minutes played. Can shoot, drive, pass a bit. Not much on defence.

Peja. Can shoot the 3 very well and did so over 4 times per game......that is about it.....played about 20 MPG.

Haywood. Played about 15 MPG and averaged a block and 4 or 5 boards. Pretty amazing for such limited playing time.


..........cont

[markkbu [enjin:6588958]]

.....cont....

so anyone that is still reading this (and I appreciate your patience) can easily recognize that the 1 team in the past 4 years with a non-scoring, ball dominate PG that was even decent (and yes, the Mavs were very good) is not constructed even close to the way that the current Wolves are build.

I hope that we can do it, but it just doesn't seem likely, merely because of how anomalistic the Mavs were. If they were the blue-print for what we are trying to do.......it is very tough to see how we would get from here to there.

The best solution is for Ricky to become a legit scoring option, and that is probably years away.

[khans2k5 [enjin:6608728]]

I know Ricky has been disappointing this year to many, but I put this team's faults solely on the 2nd unit. We score 112.6 points per 100 possessions and give up 104.5 with him on the court. We put up 98.9 and give up 103.4 with him off the court. That's almost a 14 point swing between him being on the court versus him being off the court offensively. That is in part because of Love's brilliance, but it does show how bad the bench has been this year. Those stats were as of mid-December. The only bigger differences on the team are Brewer at 14.8 and he plays even less with bench players than Ricky and Love at 25 points which shows how bad our offense is with him off the court. At the end of the day, our starting 5 is top 5 in the NBA, so the problem is not with Ricky and the starters. We are the Blazers of last year. They had a top 5 starting 5 in the league, but had zero bench help and it drove them to mediocrity. They shored up their depth and now they are tied for 3rd best record in the league. If we do the same, we should be able to expect similar results. Every single bench player but Hummel is getting outperformed by their counterpart and have negative ratings on 82games.com. Flip needs to fix the bench and then we will start playing a lot better.

[Camden [enjin:6601484]]

How do we fix the bench? Blow it up basically? That's pretty much what needs to be done.

[ace [enjin:6598567]]

You make some good points, and it's a good post. That said, it's ball DOMINANT, not dominate. Sorry, I'm not normally a grammar stickler, but for some reason the recent trend of people screwing up that word makes me angry. Continue on.

[khans2k5 [enjin:6608728]]

The only way the bench truly gets fixed is if Flip brings in an actual go-to bench big like a Landry type guy to take Dante out of the lineup and get Bud healthy. It would be nice to get backup two who can be relied on to hit 3's as well. We have no interior scoring on the second unit and JJ is really the only offensive option and he is having a down year. Getting Bud back will help some, but we still need someone who we can give the ball to in the post and get us some easy buckets. My top target that I think is available would be Andray Blatche. He makes pretty much the minimum and they are having a rough time this year. I would give up Bazz for him as long as we got him signed to a longer deal (he has a PO next year). Maybe do a Bazz/DC/2nd round pick for Blatche and Alan Anderson to give us some more shooting on the second unit (37% 3 pt shooting).

[Camden [enjin:6601484]]

Going after Anderson makes a lot of sense. Pretty sure we wanted him this off-season, but he went to the "super team" Nets. Also, not too sure Brooklyn's ready to give up. They should, though, given that Lopez is done for the year and they suck regardless.

I'd be in favor of your suggested trade, but I also think we need a better facilitator for the 2nd unit than Barea. It's his shot or a bad shot, with a few exceptions (DC wide open mid-range shot). Would love to have Farmar or Blake from the Lakers when they get back.