BizarroJerry wrote:And just to torture you Abe, Wes is shooting 45% 3 pointers and lead the Lakers in blocks and steals during Kobe's stead.
Johnson isn't a good player. He is very limited in what he can do. But he has SOME value on a team. So to give that up AND the draft pick... what a fucking disaster.
Don't we have to put some of this on Adelman as well? He gave Kahn "the list" of players he wanted gone, so I assume Wes was on that list. I wasn't a Wes fan, but he had some ability defensively. Once again, the young player never developed offensively and likely regressed under Adelman.
I know you like to rip Adelman. But unless he made the actual decision... no. Not at all.
Kahn is accountable for that trade. He was the GM. Adelman is the coach.
Do you really think it was that black and white. From the press conference I watched when Adelman came aboard, I think it was pretty clear that Kahn's new directive was to do what Adelman asked. Not thinking Adelman had a say in it, is absurd.
The coach has every right to have opinions about the roster and to push for certain players over others. The GM's job is come up with the best deals. He doesn't have to give the coach everything he wants. He doesn't have to compromise the future of the franchise for a short-sighted trade out of desperation.
Your ubiquitous attacks on Adelman are losing impact when you blame him for everything, ever time. It's almost becoming satire at this point.
Kahn made the trade. He gets the grief for it. And he lost his job (in part) for that trade among many other things.
The coach has every right to have opinions about the roster and to push for certain players over others. The GM's job is come up with the best deals. He doesn't have to give the coach everything he wants. He doesn't have to compromise the future of the franchise for a short-sighted trade out of desperation.
Your ubiquitous attacks on Adelman are losing impact when you blame him for everything, ever time. It's almost becoming satire at this point.
Kahn made the trade. He gets the grief for it. And he lost his job (in part) for that trade among many other things.
If this was the Rambis/Kahn era, I would be on board. Adelman had much more power than you are giving him credit for. That is the reason Kahn is gone and Adelman remains. Adelman brought instant credibility to the franchise, and Taylor realized that. While I agree with the bolded part above, I think that Kahn had very little decision making power in that last season. Kahn fully owns his draft choices, but to think he was making moves that Rick didn't endorse is a very simplistic view.
You say I blame Adelman for everything, but that is far from the truth. I blame Adelman for things he controls, and that includes player development (or lack thereof).
The coach has every right to have opinions about the roster and to push for certain players over others. The GM's job is come up with the best deals. He doesn't have to give the coach everything he wants. He doesn't have to compromise the future of the franchise for a short-sighted trade out of desperation.
Your ubiquitous attacks on Adelman are losing impact when you blame him for everything, ever time. It's almost becoming satire at this point.
Kahn made the trade. He gets the grief for it. And he lost his job (in part) for that trade among many other things.
If this was the Rambis/Kahn era, I would be on board. Adelman had much more power than you are giving him credit for. That is the reason Kahn is gone and Adelman remains. Adelman brought instant credibility to the franchise, and Taylor realized that. While I agree with the bolded part above, I think that Kahn had very little decision making power in that last season. Kahn fully owns his draft choices, but to think he was making moves that Rick didn't endorse is a very simplistic view.
You say I blame Adelman for everything, but that is far from the truth. I blame Adelman for things he controls, and that includes player development (or lack thereof).
But it does NOT include giving away a player AND a 1st rd. draft pick for virtually nothing in return. Gotta draw the line someplace with Adelman's criticisms... and that one seems like a logical place.
Adelman wouldn't have blinked twice at the 1st round pick. You are also making the Wes trade look worse than it really was. While I think it was a foolish move, you have to realize it allowed the wolves to sign AK with the additional cap space, so it would have been the same as trading Wes and the 1st for AK, which wouldn't have been a horrible move. I blame Kahn for the situation that was created, because he committed to Roy way too early in the FA process.
sjm34 wrote:Adelman wouldn't have blinked twice at the 1st round pick. You are also making the Wes trade look worse than it really was. While I think it was a foolish move, you have to realize it allowed the wolves to sign AK with the additional cap space, so it would have been the same as trading Wes and the 1st for AK, which wouldn't have been a horrible move. I blame Kahn for the situation that was created, because he committed to Roy way too early in the FA process.
We don't know whether Adelman would have blinked or not. Assuming how a person we don't know thinks is dangerous and pretty pointless.
We do know that Johnson AND a 1st was traded for two 2nd rd. picks. Phoenix didn't care about AK or Brandon Roy. They fleeced the Wolves in that deal. Getting to that point where that was allegedly the best deal out there is all Kahn.
I fail to see how anybody would want to pin the blame on Adelman.
BizarroJerry wrote:And just to torture you Abe, Wes is shooting 45% 3 pointers and lead the Lakers in blocks and steals during Kobe's stead.
Johnson isn't a good player. He is very limited in what he can do. But he has SOME value on a team. So to give that up AND the draft pick... what a fucking disaster.
Don't we have to put some of this on Adelman as well? He gave Kahn "the list" of players he wanted gone, so I assume Wes was on that list. I wasn't a Wes fan, but he had some ability defensively. Once again, the young player never developed offensively and likely regressed under Adelman.
I know you like to rip Adelman. But unless he made the actual decision... no. Not at all.
Kahn is accountable for that trade. He was the GM. Adelman is the coach.
Do you really think it was that black and white. From the press conference I watched when Adelman came aboard, I think it was pretty clear that Kahn's new directive was to do what Adelman asked. Not thinking Adelman had a say in it, is absurd.
Come on SJM, have some self respect here.
Are you seriously complaining about Wes leaving? Or are you complimenting Adelman for wanting Wes gone?
sjm34 wrote:Adelman wouldn't have blinked twice at the 1st round pick. You are also making the Wes trade look worse than it really was. While I think it was a foolish move, you have to realize it allowed the wolves to sign AK with the additional cap space, so it would have been the same as trading Wes and the 1st for AK, which wouldn't have been a horrible move. I blame Kahn for the situation that was created, because he committed to Roy way too early in the FA process.
We don't know whether Adelman would have blinked or not. Assuming how a person we don't know thinks is dangerous and pretty pointless.
We do know that Johnson AND a 1st was traded for two 2nd rd. picks. Phoenix didn't care about AK or Brandon Roy. They fleeced the Wolves in that deal. Getting to that point where that was allegedly the best deal out there is all Kahn.
I fail to see how anybody would want to pin the blame on Adelman.
Assuming you know the hierarchy is just as dangerous and pointless, but yet it didn't stop you. Just as Phoenix didn't care about AK or Roy, I don't care about Phoenix. If the trade had made us a PO contender, I would have lived with it. The 1st rounder would likely have been around 20 (which we readily give away anyhow) and Wes was regressing under Adelman.
Mark, I had no stance on Wes leaving or Adelman wanting him gone. My point was just to question where the blame should land. If I remember correctly, you were the one touting Wes in his last season with the wolves. I believe you had made a post picking out his best 11 game stretch and then tried to suggest he was turning things around.
sjm34 wrote:Adelman wouldn't have blinked twice at the 1st round pick. You are also making the Wes trade look worse than it really was. While I think it was a foolish move, you have to realize it allowed the wolves to sign AK with the additional cap space, so it would have been the same as trading Wes and the 1st for AK, which wouldn't have been a horrible move. I blame Kahn for the situation that was created, because he committed to Roy way too early in the FA process.
We don't know whether Adelman would have blinked or not. Assuming how a person we don't know thinks is dangerous and pretty pointless.
We do know that Johnson AND a 1st was traded for two 2nd rd. picks. Phoenix didn't care about AK or Brandon Roy. They fleeced the Wolves in that deal. Getting to that point where that was allegedly the best deal out there is all Kahn.
I fail to see how anybody would want to pin the blame on Adelman.
Assuming you know the hierarchy is just as dangerous and pointless, but yet it didn't stop you. Just as Phoenix didn't care about AK or Roy, I don't care about Phoenix. If the trade had made us a PO contender, I would have lived with it. The 1st rounder would likely have been around 20 (which we readily give away anyhow) and Wes was regressing under Adelman.
Mark, I had no stance on Wes leaving or Adelman wanting him gone. My point was just to question where the blame should land. If I remember correctly, you were the one touting Wes in his last season with the wolves. I believe you had made a post picking out his best 11 game stretch and then tried to suggest he was turning things around.
To be fair, I do have about 60 years of NBA history on my side, for the most part.
And the team didn't make the playoffs. In fact, they didn't come close. Heck, if we were playing that game, we can go back and say we can live with picking Jonny Flynn over Steph Curry.
Bottom line: The trade didn't work then. It looks disastrous for the future. And GMs/Presidents are the ones who are judged by those transactions... because ultimately... it's their call.
sjm34 wrote:Adelman wouldn't have blinked twice at the 1st round pick. You are also making the Wes trade look worse than it really was. While I think it was a foolish move, you have to realize it allowed the wolves to sign AK with the additional cap space, so it would have been the same as trading Wes and the 1st for AK, which wouldn't have been a horrible move. I blame Kahn for the situation that was created, because he committed to Roy way too early in the FA process.
We don't know whether Adelman would have blinked or not. Assuming how a person we don't know thinks is dangerous and pretty pointless.
We do know that Johnson AND a 1st was traded for two 2nd rd. picks. Phoenix didn't care about AK or Brandon Roy. They fleeced the Wolves in that deal. Getting to that point where that was allegedly the best deal out there is all Kahn.
I fail to see how anybody would want to pin the blame on Adelman.
Assuming you know the hierarchy is just as dangerous and pointless, but yet it didn't stop you. Just as Phoenix didn't care about AK or Roy, I don't care about Phoenix. If the trade had made us a PO contender, I would have lived with it. The 1st rounder would likely have been around 20 (which we readily give away anyhow) and Wes was regressing under Adelman.
Mark, I had no stance on Wes leaving or Adelman wanting him gone. My point was just to question where the blame should land. If I remember correctly, you were the one touting Wes in his last season with the wolves. I believe you had made a post picking out his best 11 game stretch and then tried to suggest he was turning things around.
To be fair, I do have about 60 years of NBA history on my side, for the most part.
And the team didn't make the playoffs. In fact, they didn't come close. Heck, if we were playing that game, we can go back and say we can live with picking Jonny Flynn over Steph Curry.
Bottom line: The trade didn't work then. It looks disastrous for the future. And GMs/Presidents are the ones who are judged by those transactions... because ultimately... it's their call.
I actually can live with that pick. Flynn had a very good rookie season for us, was excited to play here, but unfortunately suffered a career ending injury (which nobody could have predicted). Curry refused to work out for the wolves, and I can understand the hesitation to pick someone who has no interest in being here. It was Kahn's job on the line and he made his pick. Kahn wasn't the only one to pass over Curry. Sac took Evans over him as well, and that doesn't look any better. I am trying to figure out why everyone continues to bring up Curry, after Kahn was a laughingstock for drafting 32 PG's that year. Derozan was probably the more logical pick for us.
After seeing what Flip did with a #9 pick, I am hardly thinking it will be anything close to disastrous. It might just save this team the embarrassment of making another poor pick.
Except if I remember correctly, Evans won ROY and was a beast that year. Averaged 20/5/5 I think (something close to that if I'm wrong). So no, at the time Evans over Curry looked logical and brilliant. Evans regressed quickly and the Kings started using him as a SG/SF instead of the position he's been used to his whole life, PG.
Curry over DeRozan made sense because of the pick before that one. You would have had two backcourt mates who can't shoot (Rubio and DeRozan). If you know anything about NBA team-building, you know that can't happen. Curry played a ton off-ball last year when Jarrett Jack was in the game and he's pretty good at it. Add to the fact he's one of the best shooters in NBA history and the pick made sense then and it makes sense now. Rubio/Curry would have been special.
