Q12543 wrote:It's just too bad that neither of our defensive wings have a 3-point shot. The best type of role playing wing you can get is a 3 & D guy. Think Shane Battier, Thabo Sefolosha, and Bruce Bowen - guys that can both slow down the opposing team's best wing while also spacing the floor and knocking down 3-pointers. Neither Brewer or Luc give us this look. Well, Brewer fashions himself as a 3-point shooter, but he really isn't one. Luc knows his limitations and doesn't even bother to try. Shooting will continue to be a gaping hole for this squad.
I think you can hide guys on defense. I don't think you can hide two positions where you can't shoot on offense.
Q12543 wrote:It's just too bad that neither of our defensive wings have a 3-point shot. The best type of role playing wing you can get is a 3 & D guy. Think Shane Battier, Thabo Sefolosha, and Bruce Bowen - guys that can both slow down the opposing team's best wing while also spacing the floor and knocking down 3-pointers. Neither Brewer or Luc give us this look. Well, Brewer fashions himself as a 3-point shooter, but he really isn't one. Luc knows his limitations and doesn't even bother to try. Shooting will continue to be a gaping hole for this squad.
I think you can hide guys on defense. I don't think you can hide two positions where you can't shoot on offense.
Abe is right. We have to many one-way players. We have offensive players who can't defend (Love, Martin, Pek, JJ) and defensive players who can't shoot (Brewer, Rubio, Turiaf, Dieng and now Luc). Of course we have our share of players who can't do either (Shved, Shabazz).
Q12543 wrote:It's just too bad that neither of our defensive wings have a 3-point shot. The best type of role playing wing you can get is a 3 & D guy. Think Shane Battier, Thabo Sefolosha, and Bruce Bowen - guys that can both slow down the opposing team's best wing while also spacing the floor and knocking down 3-pointers. Neither Brewer or Luc give us this look. Well, Brewer fashions himself as a 3-point shooter, but he really isn't one. Luc knows his limitations and doesn't even bother to try. Shooting will continue to be a gaping hole for this squad.
I think you can hide guys on defense. I don't think you can hide two positions where you can't shoot on offense.
Abe is right. We have to many one-way players. We have offensive players who can't defend (Love, Martin, Pek, JJ) and defensive players who can't shoot (Brewer, Rubio, Turiaf, Dieng and now Luc). Of course we have our share of players who can't do either (Shved, Shabazz).
I think it was you Lip who once made a case that Barea actually plays good defense, which I'd agree with. He's good at drawing fouls as a defender and he's just a pitbull in terms of using his body. He doesn't have length or elite quickness, which are his only downfalls to me as a defender. Pek's not a rim protector, nor is he top shelf when it comes to guarding the P&R, but he is above average in moving bodies out of the low post and playing post defense. Strength and smarts. Pek's man-to-man defense is good. Martin's also not been as terrible on defense as we thought he'd be. Yes, there's plays where he gets beat with a pump fake and foul, but generally speaking, Martin's not god awful. I'd say slightly under average as a Wolf.
Point being, I think your under-rating the two-way ability of some of our players.
First, I mentioned this in another thread, but to me, the key is that guys all have a specific role to play, and they embrace it fully and we find a combination of parts that fits. We do have some guys who are pretty decent both ways as Camden mentioned. I think Brewer is a good two-way player, and Pek's pretty good defensively too. Rubio's obviously a good defender, and even though he can't shoot, he's still a good offensive player. Cunningham isn't bad on either end, even though he's not great either. But while we have a lot of guys who are stronger on one end of the court, I think if we structure the offense and defense correctly, we'll be fine. Again, think about 03-04. Hoiberg was basically just there to shoot threes, and was not a good defender. Hassell and Erv were really just there to defend, and were never a threat to score. Yes, that team had 3 guys who could go off for 20 every night. But we do have Martin, Love, and Pek, and Brewer's been good offensively and we've got Barea and maybe Bud eventually who can all score a little. So while I would love a more 2-way player like Iggy or Deng, sometimes it's the right combination of specialists that can really improve your team.
Second, and relatedly, even if you can't shoot on offense, you can still play a key role offensively. Setting picks for example. Nobody ever talks about this, but to me, setting picks is such an important offensive skill. I haven't watched Luc set picks, but I'd be willing to bet he's better than Williams, since Williams played so slow and passively. Given Luc's assertiveness with his body defensively, I can imagine him setting good picks. If we're trying to spring Martin on a curl, or create a backdoor cut for Brewer, having somebody who can set good picks is a big help. I remember thinking AK was good at that last year. I'll be looking for that with Luc.
Here's how I'd break down the skills each player has, and how it could work in lineups.
Overall
Rubio (defense, terrible shooter, passing)
Martin (bad defense, good shooter, 3 pt range, good cutter, gets to the line)
Brewer (good defender, not a good shooter, good cutter, GREAT in transition)
Love (below average defender, good shooter, 3 pt range, passing (outlets too), GREAT rebounder)
Pek (pretty good man defense, good offensively down low, good rebounder)
JJ (pest defensively but postup liability, pushes transition, runs pick n roll pretty good, shoots good but streaky, 3 pt range, selfish)
Luc (great defense, can't shoot, rebounds ok)
Bud (average defense, good shooter, 3 pt range, decent passer)
Cunningham (decent defense, sets decent picks, can hit midrange if open but sometimes streaky)
Turiaf (pretty good defender, gets blocks, rebounds ok)
Dieng (big and long and active defensively so he can face up offensive 5s, shouldn't shoot offensively)
Starters
Rubio, Martin, Brewer, Love, Pek
(that gives us passing from Rubio and Love, shooting from Martin and Love with 3 pt range, plus scoring down low from Pek, Brewer in transition, basket cuts from Brewer and Martin, and defensively, Rubio and Brewer have been good on the perimeter, and Pek's not bad down low, although our help defense is usually suspect, you may say we don't have enough shooters, but scoring hasn't been our problem this year, it's been defense)
Luc as starter
Rubio, Martin, Luc, Love, Pek
(again, passing from Rubio and Love, shooting from Martin and Love and scoring from Pek, less of a transition game with Brewer out, but Luc gives us a bigger guy to set picks to free up Martin and Love as shooters, and Brewer as a cutter, Luc also gives us a little more defensive size and skill than Brewer, and we still have two 3 point shooters on the floor, a more defensive oriented team, but with Martin, Love and Pek getting a couple more shots that Brewer might otherwise get, more of a halfcourt team, though still with scoring inside and out)
Small Ball
Rubio, Martin, Brewer, Luc, Love
(I'd like to see this sometime, as it could be a really fun team. We'd lose Pek's presence down low, although Luc's defense could help make up for it defensively. We still have two 3 point shooters on the floor, plus three good to great defenders, so you'd probably see plenty of transition scoring here for Brewer, scoring inside and out. For more defense, sub out Martin for Cunningham and slide Brewer down and this still gives us Love for offense, hopefully Brewer in transition, Cunningham in midrange, and Rubio to the basket if necessary, but that's otherwise 4 good defenders on the floor with Kevin Love. Or throw Bud in there instead of Cunningham for a little more offense, a 3 point shooter, and still some halfway decent D)
Bench A
JJ, Brewer, Bud, Luc, Pek
(With JJ and Brewer in we'd definitely still push the ball in transition, JJ and Bud can shoot with range, so we can still space the floor a bit, plus Pek for scoring down low (ideally off pick and rolls with JJ), and Brewer and Luc for defense can cover perimeter and Luc the PF with Pek a pretty decent man defender on the C.)
Bench B
JJ, Bud, Cunningham, Luc, Turiaf/Dieng
(This is a less balanced lineup because we don't really have a big who can score, although JJ can get to the basket, so technically we can still score inside and out (JJ and Bud can hit 3s), Cunningham would be the 3rd option here with the midrange, but can defend pretty decent, and we've got Luc and Turiaf/Dieng down low to defend since JJ and Bud aren't the best perimeter defenders.
Shooters
Rubio, Martin, Bud, Love, Turiaf/Dieng/Pek
(This lineup with give us 3 guys on the floor who can all hit the 3, a passer to get them the ball who doesn't need shots, plus a solid defender at the 1 and the 5 (who also doesn't need shots if its Turiaf or Dieng, or you could go with Pek). In end of the quarter situations, you could sub in JJ and have 4 potential 3 point shooters on the floor.)
Lockdown
Rubio, Brewer, Cunningham, Luc, Dieng
(This is obviously not a lineup that should see the floor for more than a last play of the quarter type of situation, but that's 5 good to great defenders we can throw out there at once.)
SameOldNudityDrew wrote:Here's how I'd break down the skills each player has, and how it could work in lineups.
Overall
Rubio (defense, terrible shooter, passing)
Martin (bad defense, good shooter, 3 pt range, good cutter, gets to the line)
Brewer (good defender, not a good shooter, good cutter, GREAT in transition)
Love (below average defender, good shooter, 3 pt range, passing (outlets too), GREAT rebounder)
Pek (pretty good man defense, good offensively down low, good rebounder)
JJ (pest defensively but postup liability, pushes transition, runs pick n roll pretty good, shoots good but streaky, 3 pt range, selfish)
Luc (great defense, can't shoot, rebounds ok)
Bud (average defense, good shooter, 3 pt range, decent passer)
Cunningham (decent defense, sets decent picks, can hit midrange if open but sometimes streaky)
Turiaf (pretty good defender, gets blocks, rebounds ok)
Dieng (big and long and active defensively so he can face up offensive 5s, shouldn't shoot offensively)
Starters
Rubio, Martin, Brewer, Love, Pek
(that gives us passing from Rubio and Love, shooting from Martin and Love with 3 pt range, plus scoring down low from Pek, Brewer in transition, basket cuts from Brewer and Martin, and defensively, Rubio and Brewer have been good on the perimeter, and Pek's not bad down low, although our help defense is usually suspect, you may say we don't have enough shooters, but scoring hasn't been our problem this year, it's been defense)
Luc as starter
Rubio, Martin, Luc, Love, Pek
(again, passing from Rubio and Love, shooting from Martin and Love and scoring from Pek, less of a transition game with Brewer out, but Luc gives us a bigger guy to set picks to free up Martin and Love as shooters, and Brewer as a cutter, Luc also gives us a little more defensive size and skill than Brewer, and we still have two 3 point shooters on the floor, a more defensive oriented team, but with Martin, Love and Pek getting a couple more shots that Brewer might otherwise get, more of a halfcourt team, though still with scoring inside and out)
Small Ball
Rubio, Martin, Brewer, Luc, Love
(I'd like to see this sometime, as it could be a really fun team. We'd lose Pek's presence down low, although Luc's defense could help make up for it defensively. We still have two 3 point shooters on the floor, plus three good to great defenders, so you'd probably see plenty of transition scoring here for Brewer, scoring inside and out. For more defense, sub out Martin for Cunningham and slide Brewer down and this still gives us Love for offense, hopefully Brewer in transition, Cunningham in midrange, and Rubio to the basket if necessary, but that's otherwise 4 good defenders on the floor with Kevin Love. Or throw Bud in there instead of Cunningham for a little more offense, a 3 point shooter, and still some halfway decent D)
Bench A
JJ, Brewer, Bud, Luc, Pek
(With JJ and Brewer in we'd definitely still push the ball in transition, JJ and Bud can shoot with range, so we can still space the floor a bit, plus Pek for scoring down low (ideally off pick and rolls with JJ), and Brewer and Luc for defense can cover perimeter and Luc the PF with Pek a pretty decent man defender on the C.)
Bench B
JJ, Bud, Cunningham, Luc, Turiaf/Dieng
(This is a less balanced lineup because we don't really have a big who can score, although JJ can get to the basket, so technically we can still score inside and out (JJ and Bud can hit 3s), Cunningham would be the 3rd option here with the midrange, but can defend pretty decent, and we've got Luc and Turiaf/Dieng down low to defend since JJ and Bud aren't the best perimeter defenders.
Shooters
Rubio, Martin, Bud, Love, Turiaf/Dieng/Pek
(This lineup with give us 3 guys on the floor who can all hit the 3, a passer to get them the ball who doesn't need shots, plus a solid defender at the 1 and the 5 (who also doesn't need shots if its Turiaf or Dieng, or you could go with Pek). In end of the quarter situations, you could sub in JJ and have 4 potential 3 point shooters on the floor.)
Lockdown
Rubio, Brewer, Cunningham, Luc, Dieng
(This is obviously not a lineup that should see the floor for more than a last play of the quarter type of situation, but that's 5 good to great defenders we can throw out there at once.)
lipoli390 wrote:
+1
Excellent post Drew.
This is the versatility of our team as I see it. I honestly don't believe that it will win a championship without alterations, but it is a very good team. They will have to learn how to win together. And, it sounds like a very fun team to watch.
Well, I just had a fantastic reply to that post Drew, but the website didn't post it and it was lengthy so I don't feel like re-typing it.
To summarize, I had these changes:
Shooters: Barea, Martin, Budinger, Hummel, Love
Lockdown: Rubio, Brewer, Mbah a Moute, Love, Turiaf
Why?
Shooters: I want the best shooters we have on the court. Barea and Hummel are better at that than Rubio and a center. Though, I understand if you want Rubio as the inbounder since he's a good passer and decision maker.
Lockdown: Mbah a Moute is a better defender than DC at both forward spots. In situations where you need a stop, he'd be on the opponent's best scorer, which would likely be a wing player. Love is best player and leader. He deserves to be on the court. Also want Love there to snatch rebound to take away second chance points. Turiaf over Dieng because I trust that Turiaf won't make a defensive mistake like slipping off an assignment or accidently fouling a jump shooter.
