Flip's Proposed Trades

[Lipoli390]

According to Doogie, Flip offered Barea for Miller and then offered him for Jack. I'm glad those offers were rejected. Neither one would have gotten us into the playoffs this season. Either deal would have made us older. Miller is a 37 yer old absolutely pathetic career 21.6% three-point shooter with a a more expensive contract than JJ's. Jack is a 34 year old with three years left after this season at more than $6.3 million per year. The fact that Flip proposed these two deals is further evidence that this team is in terrible hands with Flip running the show.

[worldK]

According to Doogie, Flip offered Barea for Miller and then offered him for Jack. I'm glad those offers were rejected. Neither one would have gotten us into the playoffs this season. Either deal would have made us older. Miller is a 37 yer old absolutely pathetic career 21.6% three-point shooter with a a more expensive contract than JJ's. Jack is a 34 year old with three years left after this season at more than $6.3 million per year. The fact that Flip proposed these two deals is further evidence that this team is in terrible hands with Flip running the show.

I agree. Flip doesnt seem to know what he wants to do. There is nothing good in us taking additional salary right now. The goal is to be a contending team down the line and not fighting for the 9th spot. There's a way to continue to build around love-rubio-pek core and flip is going the opposite direction.

[Camden [enjin:6601484]]

Miller's contract situation is actually better than Barea's, Lip. His $5M salary for next season is only $2M guaranteed whereas I believe JJ's is fully. While Miller's 3P shooting isn't as good as JJ's, almost every other facet of his game is or better even at this age. I stand by the feeling that Miller would have been a better fit for this second unit.

I can certainly understand the dislike for a JJ/JJ swap. We take back more salary and more years, and arguably the lesser player this year. I think it would have been a nice shakeup, though, had it gone through. Jack showed me enough the last two years to think he can be a difference maker on a playoff team in more than just a couple games late in the year. I won't argue this one much further because, like I said, I can understand the dislike. You either like Jack more than others or you don't. As for his contract, his last year isn't guaranteed, so we could call it two more years if we'd like to. Yes, I didn't forget JJ's an expiring next year. Just bringing that point up.

I don't see either of these proposals as evidence that this team is in bad hands with Flip. I think both deals would have been good for us on the court WHILE showing Love that the FO is more than willing to make moves to get better. I feel like Kevin would have endorsed both trades if asked about them, which I'm sure Flip got his input.

What will be Flip's biggest test is how he handles the Love situation. If he brings him back, which I believe he will, then he gets an A+ hands down for the biggest obstacle on the agenda. If he pulls the trigger on a worthy trade next year knowing good and well, for sure, no doubt about it that Love's gone, then we will grade the trade and Flip will be remembered by that. A couple deadline proposals that didn't even get accepted don't do much for my faith, or lack of faith, in Flip.

[worldK]

My negativity towards flip stems from the fact that i believe he didnt make good use of the assets that he got when he took over. #9 and #26th pick, dw and shved(when their value isn't as low as it is now) the cap space he got with ak opting out, luke's expiring, non guaranteed deals of steimsma and roy and even jj has decent value. He ended up with martin,brewer and bud. All 3 of those contracts are not easy to move.

Him targeting miller and jack dont make sense when we are currently 6 games out of a playoff seed and are over the cap next season with love and rubio extentions coming. We dont have much assets anymore. The fact that spencer hawes expiring got them 2 second rounders doesnt inspire confidence that jj,luc and shved' expiring next season can get us anything of value to upgrade the team. We are very limited in what we can do outside of trading 1 of the love-rubio-pek threesome. Flip painted himself into a corner of either being a perennial challenger for the 6-8 seed or being forced to blow it up.

[Lipoli390]

World - You captured my thoughts on Flip.

Cam - You make some good points. I didn't know that only $2 million of Miller's contract was guaranteed. Knowing that, the proposed Miller trade doesn't seem so bad. But honestly, I'd still prefer JJ as a younger, much better three point shooter. Bottom line thought is that none of these three -- JJ, Miller or Jack - significantly impacts our playoff prospects. Steve Blake is a guy who might have moved the needle. But as World suggested, we may not have the assets to trade for anyone of Blake's caliber or better.

[longstrangetrip [enjin:6600564]]

I don't think you guys are looking at this the right way. We don't know that the only trades Flip proposed were the two in this thread. We only know that the only information doogie has is that Flip offered JJ for Jack and Miller. The questions we need to ask ourselves are:
1) how does doogie know this...i.e. who told him
2) what does doogie not know
3) what does all this mean

We can only speculate on the above three questions, but here is my speculation.

1) Flip told doogie that he offered up JJ in the two proposed trades, but told doogie he couldn't cite Flip as the source. This kind of stuff happens all the time. At first I was pissed off at Flip, because I think it's bad form for a GM to talk about trades that didn't happen...kind of throws JJ under the bus and makes him feel unwanted. But as I thought about it more, I think Flip doesn't care what JJ thinks...he's not in Flip's long-term plan. Or mine.

2) Doogie doesn't know that Flip also offered JJ/Bud for Prince/Allen (way too many sources for that rumor to question it), and probably several other deals that Flip tried to make happen but didn't want to leak to doogie,

3) JJ doesn't fit at all into Flip's roster plan, but Bud does. That's why Flip didn't choose to leak the Memphis proposed deal to Doogie. Even though Flip saw the Memphis deal as a good way to unload JJ and upgrade the roster, he values Bud enough to not leak the deal when it wasn't accepted.

As for the wisdom of the two deals Flip elected to leak, I don't think that's the real issue here. Personally I would have been opposed to the Jack deal and in favor of the Miller deal...but not really too excited either way. The real issue is that Flip is telling us that JJ is not on his radar when he looks ahead, and he doesn't really care what he gets back for him. I expect JJ to be traded this summer for almost nothing.

I'm still in Flip's corner. He handled the Kirilenko situation adeptly, and didn't leave us saddled with a big contract for a guy who cant stay healthy, and instead used the available cash more wisely on Brewer and Martin...two guys who have started all year for one of the most productive starting fives in the league. He didn't see anyone he loved at 9, and instead traded for two guys who I think have enormous upside...not Flip's fault that Adelman won't play them. I know many liked CJ McCollum, but watch a few Portland games and see how he is struggling defensively...makes Kevin Martin look like Tony Allen. I sense that may be why his minutes have dropped sharply the last two games. And finally, I like how Flip is handling the Love situation. Unlike Kahn, Flip appears to have established an excellent relationship with Kevin and I am confident will do everything he can to keep him here long-term. I loved his response to Peter (no longer relevant) Vescey's irresponsible tweet, and more importantly, it appears Love enjoyed it too.

Flip is much maligned on this board, but I don't see him as the problem with the 2013-4 Wolves. The biggest problem is the head coach, and Flip inherited that situation.

[worldK]

Long, you make some fair points but what flip has shown us so far is that he is just simply not special or just average as a gm. He went the safe route this off season with his moves.

He didnt think outside the box in using the cap space and other assets in adding another star. Even his draft of bazz and dieng were safe moves when he had the greek freak there and he just traded the 26th pick away when he could have make better use of it.He has not shown that he has that quality of finding a gem or being creative enough to pull something off.

Even the proposal of jj for miller or jack and the rumored bud for prince swap lack any creativity or vision for long term upgrade. It feels like making a trade for the sake of making one and its a trade that ultimately wont impact us long term.

As far as flips free agent signings. Martin is fair value given his production. But martin is also a guy that has low trade value due to his age, injury history and 1 way play. We are not going to get much by offering martin in a trade. I like bud but have to admit he is overpaid. Brewer has exceeded my expectations and has been solid but i just cant think of another team that would give him 4.7m /yr. Turiaf is a solid signing il give him that.

What we need is a gm that can get creative and draft well for us to be a legit playiff team and contender down the line. I have not seen that from flip so far.

[markkbu [enjin:6588958]]

1. Moving from "doogie reports that" to referring to those reports as "facts" is a very long logical leap.

2. Getting rid of JJ and his contract would make the team better (although it is tough to see why anyone would want him. funny that inefficient, shoot first PGs are not really in high demand in the NBA) . Having a back up PG that does the opposite of making those around him better is poison to this team. JJ is similar to Beasley's time MN in this regard. Moving him (or cutting him from the rotation) is essential for the team to improve.

we have a better record at this point in the season than we have had in about 10 years. That seems like pretty good proof that we are moving in a better direction than we have been moving in a long time..

It is too bad that we have deal with JJ and his contract. Should Flip been able to move JJ (without picking up a worse contract or a future draft pick), it would have been a small miracle.

[markkbu [enjin:6588958]]

Also, I think that you guys are underselling Brewer's value. This year he is scoring more than most starting SFs in the league, he is well above average in his scoring efficiency, and is a pretty good defender. That seems like a pretty good value for the $4.5 million that we are paying him.

[longstrangetrip [enjin:6600564]]

Long, you make some fair points but what flip has shown us so far is that he is just simply not special or just average as a gm. He went the safe route this off season with his moves.

He didnt think outside the box in using the cap space and other assets in adding another star. Even his draft of bazz and dieng were safe moves when he had the greek freak there and he just traded the 26th pick away when he could have make better use of it.He has not shown that he has that quality of finding a gem or being creative enough to pull something off.

Even the proposal of jj for miller or jack and the rumored bud for prince swap lack any creativity or vision for long term upgrade. It feels like making a trade for the sake of making one and its a trade that ultimately wont impact us long term.

As far as flips free agent signings. Martin is fair value given his production. But martin is also a guy that has low trade value due to his age, injury history and 1 way play. We are not going to get much by offering martin in a trade. I like bud but have to admit he is overpaid. Brewer has exceeded my expectations and has been solid but i just cant think of another team that would give him 4.7m /yr. Turiaf is a solid signing il give him that.

What we need is a gm that can get creative and draft well for us to be a legit playiff team and contender down the line. I have not seen that from flip so far.

I agree, world, that the proposed trades that we know about weren't very exciting. The only deadline trade I found interesting at all was the Granger/Turner deal...other than that everything was ho hum. I conclude that GMs just weren't in much of a dealing mood this year, and I'm reluctant to hold Flip to a higher standard than the rest of the GMs in the league. We don't know, of course, but I suspect that Flip proposed several more creative deals. The public only learns about a fraction of proposed deals, because GMs don't want their players to know they were dangling them out there.

I also agree with you that Antekokounmpo may have been a better, and certainly a more creative, pick than Shabazz/Dieng. I have really been impressed with him and believe he may turn out to be the best player in this class...his upside is scary. But as I pointed out a couple days ago, there is an added risk in drafting foreign players and all GMs are reluctant to go there (the Darko effect, if you will). That's why 14 GMs passed on the Freak before he was selected. In fact, Sergey Karasev was ranked ahead of the Freak in all mock drafts and was talked about on this board much more than the Freak, and he has been a complete flop in his first year. I give Flip credit for not picking Karesev with the Shabazz pick.

I still believe the only conclusion we can make about Flip right now is that the jury is still out on him as a GM...we just don't know about deals he has tried to make, or how his draft choices will pan out once we get a more flexible coach. I recognize that I will be more of a Saunders apologist than most because I have been a fan of his since the mid-70s when I used to buy tickets on the street to watch him in the Barn, and have always been impressed with his basketball knowledge. We struggled with a lawyer/sportswriter in the GM role, and I'm happy that we finally have a real basketball guy calling the shots.