Flip's Proposed Trades

[alexftbl8181 [enjin:6648741]]

Long what is thinking behind bazz's potential? What do you think he'll compare to player wise?

[longstrangetrip [enjin:6600564]]

Long what is thinking behind bazz's potential? What do you think he'll compare to player wise?

It's a great question, alex, and one that is key to the Wolves future. We're just not going to know what his upside is until Adelman is gone...Zgoda made it very clear in a tweet a couple days ago that Adelman doesn't want to play him because he just doesn't trust him.

But my thought is that he has a high ceiling, although limited by some of his natural shortcomings. I think he has the potential to be a potent scorer off the bench, even sixth man of the year potential. I don't find it inconceivable that he could average 12-15 points in 20-25 minutes off the bench. He has a scorer's mentality and can put the ball in the basket in so many ways...and he has shown the ability to score the basketball at a high rate at every level he has played at.

So why don't I see him as a starter then? Because his deficiencies seem to lock him into a reserve sparkplug role. He is just not a distributor...wasn't in college, and doesn't seem to have the inclination in the pros. The Wolves already have one guy (Pek) in the starting lineup who is almost 100% focused on scoring when he gets the ball, and having two guys like that on the court at the same time would not be conducive to good offensive flow. In addition, despite his excellent motor, I don't think he will ever excel defensively. For those reasons, I see his value most likely as a potent scorer off the bench. And if he can fill this role effectively, he will prove to be a great pick at 13 in a weak draft. Time will tell though.

[alexftbl8181 [enjin:6648741]]

Long what is thinking behind bazz's potential? What do you think he'll compare to player wise?

It's a great question, alex, and one that is key to the Wolves future. We're just not going to know what his upside is until Adelman is gone...Zgoda made it very clear in a tweet a couple days ago that Adelman doesn't want to play him because he just doesn't trust him.

But my thought is that he has a high ceiling, although limited by some of his natural shortcomings. I think he has the potential to be a potent scorer off the bench, even sixth man of the year potential. I don't find it inconceivable that he could average 12-15 points in 20-25 minutes off the bench. He has a scorer's mentality and can put the ball in the basket in so many ways...and he has shown the ability to score the basketball at a high rate at every level he has played at.

So why don't I see him as a starter then? Because his deficiencies seem to lock him into a reserve sparkplug role. He is just not a distributor...wasn't in college, and doesn't seem to have the inclination in the pros. The Wolves already have one guy (Pek) in the starting lineup who is almost 100% focused on scoring when he gets the ball, and having two guys like that on the court at the same time would not be conducive to good offensive flow. In addition, despite his excellent motor, I don't think he will ever excel defensively. For those reasons, I see his value most likely as a potent scorer off the bench. And if he can fill this role effectively, he will prove to be a great pick at 13 in a weak draft. Time will tell though.

ehh well JJ scores 9 in 17 minutes so I wouldn't say 12-15 in 20-25 minutes is scary upside.

So you think he will be a guy who scores 12-15 off then bench. My guess is that he'll be about a 40% fg shooter. throw in some rebounds coupled with zero passing and zero defense. I don't see that as a player on a winning team.

Again it's easy to be a scorer when you don't have to pass and shoot it every time you touch it

[Hicks123 [enjin:6700838]]

What I love about these threads is that we crucify Flip for "dicussions" that potentially didn't even happen. I am sure a million things are discussed between GM's as trade day winds down. What no one knows is that the deals that Doggie and others bring up were simply thoughts, or if they were in fact offered as final deals. Heck, maybe the Cavs offered us Jack for Barea, and after thinking about it, Flip turned it down. The fact that the Cavs were more than clear that they wanted to deal Jack certainly lends to this type of scenerio. And the bigger piece is that there is a great chance that none of these deals were talked about as a 1 for 1 deal, but rather they typically include some other compensation that ends up hanging the deal (i.e. picks).

And while I was desperately hoping Flip could move Barea/Bud/Moute, I went into the deadline with my eyes wide open to the fact that all 3 players are par to sub-par players on VERY overpaid deals. Someone else made a point that a 5'8" inefficient scoring PG with another year left on his deal isn't exactly in high demand. If we could have traded him for cap space, I would bank on the fact that it would have happened. It didn't, thus I have to assume that noone was dumb enough to make this move...and good for them, bad for us.

And let's chat Derrick Williams for a minute. I was completely against the deal we got, but in the end, it is really a wash. Derrick, while he has small upside potential, is just one of those Beasley types that has talent but clearly doesn't get it. You could see it in him almost from the beginning. Many are still so hung up on the fact that the guy was the #2 pick, thus we deserved to get something much better in return. Well, at least to this point, he has shown to be nothing more than another $5M minimally contributing bendh player. The bad decision we made with Williams was extending his contract another year. He would have been much more valuable as an expiring as we went into the deadline.

In the end, I am not a Flip supporter, and never was. But I also understand that what we on this board feel like are "fair" offers for our players are typically just not realistic opportunites. There always has to be a buyer, and in most cases, there simply isn't.

[JasonIsDaMan [enjin:7981157]]

My negativity towards flip stems from the fact that i believe he didnt make good use of the assets that he got when he took over. #9 and #26th pick, dw and shved(when their value isn't as low as it is now) the cap space he got with ak opting out, luke's expiring, non guaranteed deals of steimsma and roy and even jj has decent value. He ended up with martin,brewer and bud. All 3 of those contracts are not easy to move.

Him targeting miller and jack dont make sense when we are currently 6 games out of a playoff seed and are over the cap next season with love and rubio extentions coming. We dont have much assets anymore. The fact that spencer hawes expiring got them 2 second rounders doesnt inspire confidence that jj,luc and shved' expiring next season can get us anything of value to upgrade the team. We are very limited in what we can do outside of trading 1 of the love-rubio-pek threesome. Flip painted himself into a corner of either being a perennial challenger for the 6-8 seed or being forced to blow it up.

Let's go through these one by one
1. Look, if you want to discuss how Flip screwed up his life so bad that he now has to do whatever Bill Duffy tells him to, that's one thing. But understanding that Shabazz would still be there at #11 (and probably #111), and getting #21 in the process, is actually kind of shrewd, in THE VERY NARROW SCOPE of actually drafting an adult male who lies about his age in the first place.

2. Totally agree that DW needed to be package with some other crap while he still had value. SAC hadn't done the Hetero deal yet, so maybe DW/Shved for LRMaM/McLemore or LRMaM/Jimmer?

3. In terms of cap space, it's fun to play Monday Morning QB now, but I remember everybody being pretty excited about Brewer (Lead league in 3pt. % from Left Corner in 12/13) and I think everyone had an appreciation for what Bud could do when healthy. If you want to convince others you knew better at the time, have at it, I guess.

4. He got Martin for "Luke's" expiring. Martin's been OK. He's made some dumb mistakes in close games, but his D has been better than I thought it would be.

5. They tried with Roy and Steisma. Just didn't happen. And can you post a link of who was clamoring for JJ?

6. Actually, not to get anyone's hope up, but I can totally see a JJ/LRMaM/Shved for Hetero trade at the next deadline. SAC will be panicking to get under the lux, and MIN will be panicking to keep Love, so no picks need exchanging.

Like I said before, the story of this season is 1)Bud's injury/Brewer's Slump 2)Getting more from the #58 pick two drafts ago than the #11 pick in this past draft 3)Trading Williams for a guy who is actually worse, and I will add Blonde Ricky's slump as well. They have AT LEAST 10 more wins if those things go right.

[kms789 [enjin:6694798]]

*Jarrett Jack is 30, not 34

[markkbu [enjin:6588958]]

This is a funny discussion. All the words that have been used to describe Martin have been something similar to "adequate".

The guy is in the Top 25 in the NBA in PPG, is shooting .400 from 3 land, and occasionally plays some decent defense......and that gets refereed to as "OK" or "fair market value" by our fanbase.

While our PG is one of the worst shooting NBA players through the course of history and Love's defense is one of the worst from any PF that I have ever seen.

It is always surprising the obvious facts that people will exclude in attempts to to support long held beliefs.

[Leado01]

Markkbu - what's wrong with this world that you are the voice of reason? I agree that this is a funny discussion predicated on a Darren Wolfsen report. Lipoli has a lot of vitriol right now (how can you hate Andre Miller for this many years? At some point you have to admit that we should have picked him up 10-11 years ago when we had the chance). I also don't understand the disdain for K Mart who has been very good for us this year (and I'm surprised that his defense is better than advertised).

So am I cray cray? Or am I agreeing with markkbu?

[JasonIsDaMan [enjin:7981157]]

This is a funny discussion. All the words that have been used to describe Martin have been something similar to "adequate".

The guy is in the Top 25 in the NBA in PPG, is shooting .400 from 3 land, and occasionally plays some decent defense......and that gets refereed to as "OK" or "fair market value" by our fanbase.

While our PG is one of the worst shooting NBA players through the course of history and Love's defense is one of the worst from any PF that I have ever seen.

It is always surprising the obvious facts that people will exclude in attempts to to support long held beliefs.

You raise a good point. I could have used stronger language. I think Martin has been one of the bright spots this year. I just wish MIN signed him at 4yrs/$20m rather than 4yrs/$28m.

[thedoper]

I hate Doogie. I don't know if anyone else remembers on the old espb board when a guy claiming to be doogie got in an argument with all of the posters defending one of his rumours. Since then I decided never to listen to his dirt, even if it is true. I agree with the sentiment that it is hard to judge Flip's big picture thinking on rumoured potential trades that didn't happen.This type of story is really a non issue to me. The bigger story to me is why this wasn't a time for Flip to actually show his direction for the team. I think that Flip has deferred to Adelman so far, and we are yet again trapped in no mans land.