Knicks game report

[alexftbl8181 [enjin:6648741]]

Khans: I get what you're saying, but I'll completely disagree with your second sentence. 18 PPG and great defense doesn't carry a franchise. 24 PPG with a full arsenal of offensive moves can, and it's proven. And the only reason it didn't work out with Love is because our bonehead GM squandered away assets via draft, trade and free agency. That has nothing to do with Love. Also, we're assuming Wiggins eventually develops a handle, which isn't a given. Without somewhat of a handle, I don't see how he becomes this 18+ PPG scorer. That's scary to me. Whereas on the other side, Parker may eventually be a guy where the offense can give him the ball, let him create and he'll either get his shot or find a teammate in a good spot to score. That's a huge weapon.

Cool: I've watched every Wolves game and probably half of the Bucks games. Both have shown glimpses of their potential. Wiggins has shown defensive upside and Parker has shown his offensive feel for the game. It's too soon to declare who is better, obviously, but I can't say that I don't wish we had Bari instead of Drew.

Paul George averaged 17.4 PPG 2 years ago and 21.7 PPG last year on top 3 seeded playoff teams in both years. That's not going to be that hard for Wiggins to achieve and it shows how you can do just as well with an 18 PPG and elite defensive player than an offensive juggernaut with no defense . Also, how is it not troubling that Jabari, the ready to go offensive juggernaut, is only averaging 12 PPG while shooting a quality 21% from 3 point range with 1 APG. Wiggins meanwhile is right behind him at 11 PPG with a 60% rate from downtown and just below 1 APG. Wiggins is also the better FT shooter right now and gets to the line slightly more often. The whole benefit of taking Parker over Wiggins was his early years were supposed to be superior to Wiggins' because his game was more ready. If Parker can't outplay Wiggins in the early years it is not even going to be close based on Wiggins' two-way potential to Jabari's one way game. Parker's offensive game has always been thought of to be significantly higher than Wiggins, but Wiggins was always right behind him in college by the numbers and factoring in defense it is just not even close in my opinion. Wiggins' game has always been based on efficiency versus Parker's volume and efficiency is what leads to the best players in the game while volume leads to the debates about whether Love or Melo are top ten players.

When it comes to superstar players, I think scoring means a lot more then defense. George and the Pacers are great defenders, but in reality, superstar players are always going to get theirs. They couldn't stop Lebron or Wade, and lost because they couldn't score.

Same deal as why Ricky can't be considered a franchise guy. Yea he plays good D, but in a playoff series against a guy like Paul, or Rose, or Westbrook, those guys will get their points no matter how good Ricky is at D. But he's not good enough to get his against other guys, so he'll always loose his matchup

Every superstar player you mentioned is considered a two way player. Every guy I mentioned that could score at will were one way players. There aren't any teams being led by one way players deep into the playoffs. Notice how the Knicks haven't made it too far in the playoffs recently, but the Pacers have. It's because the best players play both ends of the court and I don't think Jabari will ever be a good defender while Wiggins could easily be a good offensive player.

Could also be pointed to the fact that the Knicks second best player over the years has been JR Smith

[khans2k5 [enjin:6608728]]

Khans: I get what you're saying, but I'll completely disagree with your second sentence. 18 PPG and great defense doesn't carry a franchise. 24 PPG with a full arsenal of offensive moves can, and it's proven. And the only reason it didn't work out with Love is because our bonehead GM squandered away assets via draft, trade and free agency. That has nothing to do with Love. Also, we're assuming Wiggins eventually develops a handle, which isn't a given. Without somewhat of a handle, I don't see how he becomes this 18+ PPG scorer. That's scary to me. Whereas on the other side, Parker may eventually be a guy where the offense can give him the ball, let him create and he'll either get his shot or find a teammate in a good spot to score. That's a huge weapon.

Cool: I've watched every Wolves game and probably half of the Bucks games. Both have shown glimpses of their potential. Wiggins has shown defensive upside and Parker has shown his offensive feel for the game. It's too soon to declare who is better, obviously, but I can't say that I don't wish we had Bari instead of Drew.

Paul George averaged 17.4 PPG 2 years ago and 21.7 PPG last year on top 3 seeded playoff teams in both years. That's not going to be that hard for Wiggins to achieve and it shows how you can do just as well with an 18 PPG and elite defensive player than an offensive juggernaut with no defense . Also, how is it not troubling that Jabari, the ready to go offensive juggernaut, is only averaging 12 PPG while shooting a quality 21% from 3 point range with 1 APG. Wiggins meanwhile is right behind him at 11 PPG with a 60% rate from downtown and just below 1 APG. Wiggins is also the better FT shooter right now and gets to the line slightly more often. The whole benefit of taking Parker over Wiggins was his early years were supposed to be superior to Wiggins' because his game was more ready. If Parker can't outplay Wiggins in the early years it is not even going to be close based on Wiggins' two-way potential to Jabari's one way game. Parker's offensive game has always been thought of to be significantly higher than Wiggins, but Wiggins was always right behind him in college by the numbers and factoring in defense it is just not even close in my opinion. Wiggins' game has always been based on efficiency versus Parker's volume and efficiency is what leads to the best players in the game while volume leads to the debates about whether Love or Melo are top ten players.

When it comes to superstar players, I think scoring means a lot more then defense. George and the Pacers are great defenders, but in reality, superstar players are always going to get theirs. They couldn't stop Lebron or Wade, and lost because they couldn't score.

Same deal as why Ricky can't be considered a franchise guy. Yea he plays good D, but in a playoff series against a guy like Paul, or Rose, or Westbrook, those guys will get their points no matter how good Ricky is at D. But he's not good enough to get his against other guys, so he'll always loose his matchup

Every superstar player you mentioned is considered a two way player. Every guy I mentioned that could score at will were one way players. There aren't any teams being led by one way players deep into the playoffs. Notice how the Knicks haven't made it too far in the playoffs recently, but the Pacers have. It's because the best players play both ends of the court and I don't think Jabari will ever be a good defender while Wiggins could easily be a good offensive player.

Could also be pointed to the fact that the Knicks second best player over the years has been JR Smith

Did you forget about Chandler? They had the best compliment defensively possible next to a small ball Melo at the 4 and still did nothing. Now look how Chandler is doing next to Dirk. They had the talent, but their one way superstar didn't play a good enough overall game to win games that counted. Defense wins titles much more often than offense so I'll take the better defender especially if the offense isn't that far behind the one way guy.

[Monster]

Bottom line is if Parker turns into Melo 2.0 nobody on the Bucks is gonna be complaining they will be thrilled.

Also bottom line is the last few years for reasons its hard to count the Knicks have been terrible lots of blame to go around including Melo but it goes WAAAAAYYYY deeper than Melo and I'm pretty nuetral (he isn't great nor terrible) on Melo overall.

[Camden [enjin:6601484]]

If Parker turns into Anthony, and Wiggins turns into George, then I'm not sure how far this debate goes. Carmelo's the better player.

[khans2k5 [enjin:6608728]]

If Parker turns into Anthony, and Wiggins turns into George, then I'm not sure how far this debate goes. Carmelo's the better player.

That's your opinion. George is a 20 PPG scorer with elite defense. George in my opinion is the better overall player. I also don't see Jabari being as good as Melo because he doesn't have the athleticism and quickness that Melo's offensive game thrives on. Melo has a quick first step and gets his shot off much quicker. I also see Wiggins as having a higher ceiling than George because he is more athletic and has a better jumper.

[SameOldNudityDrew]

I feel like I need to go back and rewatch the games or something. Wiggins (with apparently no handle) seems to have no trouble creating a shot for himself. He is already our best defender on the floor, and is only 19. Oh, and per 36 numbers have him at over 14 pts per game, so I guess that is how he will become an 18pt/gm scorer.

Wes Johnson flashbacks??? Do you remember Wes when he was here. The guy played decent D, but couldn't create a shot to save his life. Wes was also like 23 years old when in his rookie year.

Give the rookie a little more time.

Let me clarify. Wiggins is already better than Johnson ever was or will be. By "Wes Johnson Flashbacks" I mean they are both crazy athletic players who seem unsure of themselves on the floor, have stiff handles and generally play very stiffly too (as opposed to smoothly), and when they finish they don't do so with touch, they both kinda get to the backboard because of their athleticism and then let the ball go. I'm frankly surprised sometimes when Wiggins hits his shots because it doesn't LOOK like it's going to go in. And sometimes he does miss badly. He's clanked and air balled his fair share of shots, even though he's also hit the jumper nicely as well. It's just I never quite know if he's going to knock it down or clank it when he shoots. He doesn't have a lot of balls barely roll out. They're either definitely in or they're definitely out, which speaks to the issue of "touch." They are both in the ballpark of athletes who play basketball instead of athletic basketball players if you know what I mean. I still have hope for WIggins, and it starts on the defensive end for him. But he's clearly NOT the guy people were hyping a year ago when people were talking about teams tanking for Wiggins as the next truly transformational player in the NBA. Not the kid's fault. And I still hope he becomes a great player for us. He's got the raw potential, and he's only 19, which is awesome, but it's still pretty raw. It's going to take a while until we know what we have I think.

[SameOldNudityDrew]

In terms of comparisons, I don't think Paul George is a good comparison because he's such a fluid player, very smooth offensively who just happens to be good on the defensive end as well. You trust him as a ball handler with the ball in his hands down the stretch. I don't see that happening with Wiggins. George can do a lot of different things with the ball in his hands offensively. Wiggins has the step back, the spin move, and the straight drive and you know if he puts the ball down he's going to do one of those 3 things.

When I watch Wiggins right now, I actually see some shades of Shawn Marion . . . which if you remember his Phoenix days, is a big compliment. That guy was almost as central to what that team did as Nash. He was a great defender (scooping up steals and blocks), scored 20 PPG by hitting open shots and using his athleticism to get to the rim for easy assists from Nash, ripping 10-11 boards at his peak, and he hit the open jump shots at a decent clip. Now, Wiggins hasn't filled the stat sheet like that so far, but he should be able to get 2 steals and a block a game during his career for sure. Wiggins also has the tools to get rebounds, although I'd expect more like 8 from him a game because of his size (more on that later), though with his nose for the rebound, he should get a lot more than he has so far. Wiggins CAN handle the ball better than Marion, for all I criticize his handles. He can put the ball on the deck and head toward the hoop, which he should do much more often. But Wiggins' handles are somewhere between those Paul George type of players and Marion's. Marion made a living working off the ball with a great distributing PG. I think given Wiggins' skill set, and the fact that we have Rubio, that's what makes Marion a good comparison for Wiggins. I just don't see the fluidity or handles for him to be a guy like Paul George (or Tracy McGrady, which is who some guys have compared him to). But I definitely see a guy who could become a somewhat smaller Shawn Marion type of guy, like Shawn Marion with better but still limited handles as an SG, which is why the Tony Allen comparison also makes some sense. I also see some Latrell Sprewell in his offensive game, and Spree was a similar size player.

That's the thing with Wiggins that we're not talking about. The dude is 20 to 30 pounds lighter than and/or 2 to 3 inches shorter than all these SFs we're comparing him to, including Marion. He's probably not going to grow another couple inches, but he needs to put on weight for sure. He basically has the length of a shooting guard and the weight of a point guard and we're asking him to play SF. I think he's going to need to make his career at the 2 either way, but adding 15 to 20 pounds will be key to helping him D up bigger guys, get rebounds, and post guys up down low.

Watch this Marion highlight reel. It's not that hard to imagine Wiggins playing in a similar way in a couple years. Marion hits a bunch of threes which is why he scores so much, but he makes his impact in other ways just like Wiggins can. Getting steals and blocks, running the floor to finish on the break, super athletic and getting to the basket, a nose for offensive rebounds and putbacks and following his own shot, those are all things Wiggins does too. This video is awesome because you also get a couple shots of early Barbosa and Diaw, crazy Delonte West, and young Gerald Green in wavy cornrows.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wBFRtz8WYY4

[worldK]

Drew, are you serious in saying that wiggins is 2-3 inches shorter than pg, tmac or marion and that he has the size and length of a sg and similar size with spreewell???

He is same height as tmac, an inch taller than marion, 3 inch taller than spree and an inch or two shorter than george. You know that he is 6'8 and has a long wingspan right? He needs to add weight no doubt and he has the frame to add more muscles to him, he is no brewer or martin where there just isnt room in their body frames to get bulkier.

After a few more seasons, i see wiggins developing something close to the body type of gay and batum and they are similar in height as well.

[SameOldNudityDrew]

Drew, are you serious in saying that wiggins is 2-3 inches shorter than pg, tmac or marion and that he has the size and length of a sg and similar size with spreewell???

He is same height as tmac, an inch taller than marion, 3 inch taller than spree and an inch or two shorter than george. You know that he is 6'8 and has a long wingspan right? He needs to add weight no doubt and he has the frame to add more muscles to him, he is no brewer or martin where there just isnt room in their body frames to get bulkier.

After a few more seasons, i see wiggins developing something close to the body type of gay and batum and they are similar in height as well.

Two inches this way or that doesn't mean much if he doesn't add 20 pounds. Besides, the point isn't to debate how tall he is a couple inches this way or that, the point is that I think he's going to be more of a Marion type of player than Paul George. And unless he adds the weight, regardless of the length, he'll be a somewhat smaller perimeter oriented Marion type of player. Which, if you read my post, you'll see is something I think will be very good.

[worldK]

Drew, are you serious in saying that wiggins is 2-3 inches shorter than pg, tmac or marion and that he has the size and length of a sg and similar size with spreewell???

He is same height as tmac, an inch taller than marion, 3 inch taller than spree and an inch or two shorter than george. You know that he is 6'8 and has a long wingspan right? He needs to add weight no doubt and he has the frame to add more muscles to him, he is no brewer or martin where there just isnt room in their body frames to get bulkier.

After a few more seasons, i see wiggins developing something close to the body type of gay and batum and they are similar in height as well.

Two inches this way or that doesn't mean much if he doesn't add 20 pounds. Besides, the point isn't to debate how tall he is a couple inches this way or that, the point is that I think he's going to be more of a Marion type of player than Paul George. And unless he adds the weight, regardless of the length, he'll be a somewhat smaller perimeter oriented Marion type of player. Which, if you read my post, you'll see is something I think will be very good.

Drew, you were the one who brought up the "inches" and "size" into this. Devoted half of your post to this and in fact and name a couple of players that you think where bigger than wiggins and said wiggins is similar size to spree. You kind of brought this into the topic by the way. I find it ironic that you are now saying it doesnt matter when you brought it up yourself as part of your argument to kind of shot down the pg/tmac ceiling for wiggins you thought is inaccurate.

Yes I understand that half of your post states your opinion that you think wiggins can be a marion type of perimeter player and marion is a damn good player I would say. But I feel thats off as well. Even the small sample size of games we've seen from wiggins says that he can create his own shot nicely. When we are down by 1 with 10 secs to go, you can give it to wiggins and he can create and put up a good shot. No way marion can do that and no way you give the ball to marion with the game on the line and tell him to create something.