Kevin Martin

[longstrangetrip [enjin:6600564]]

I'm reluctant to show too much enthusiasm for Martin, because it has only been two games and we should know who he is based on his long career. But there have been some palpable changes in his early season personality and behaviors, and I thought it might be interesting to track his performance in his own thread.

Martin has been a fairly consistent performer his entire career...this is what we know him to be:

1) A very good shooter, despite unorthodox form
2) Elite at getting to the free throw line, and deadly once he got there, although his attempts per game dropped significantly when the rules changed 3 years ago.
3) A liability on defense, more due to effort than lack of athleticism or technique
4) A tendency to disappear with the game on the line
5) Definitely not a leader...displays an almost cavalier attitude in the locker room
6) A tendency to miss games with injuries

All of this added up to a guy who could produce points in bunches, but couldn't be considered a star due to his many drawbacks.

For the past several weeks, I have seen a new Kevin Martin, and I'm wondering if others have too...and if so, whether we think it is sustainable. Here is what I have noted:

1)An odd, but revealing, comment that he has gotten away with things in the past, and didn't expect that this year's coaching staff would allow that

2) A desire and effort to mentor our high-ceiling young guys. He has talked about this with the media, and demonstrated it when he went out of his way to cheer Wiggins up after the Bulls game.

3) Much more effort on defense. Martin has often displayed an "I don't care" attitude on the defensive side of the ball throughout his career. I am seeing a different Martin on defense this year. It's mostly a visual thing at this point, but his increased fouls and defensive rebounds support the eye test. Also, Flip has talked openly about his positive impact on defense.

4) A desire to be "the man" in the 4th quarter of the Bulls game. We are used to seeing him bust his ass to get open around screens in the first quarter, but I have never seen this effort at crunch time...instead he would disappear. His effort to get open on his go-ahead three with a minute left was notable, and his Sam Cassell act after the made shot showed me an intensity I haven't seen before. He didn't have to work as hard a minute later when he hit what should have been the game winner, but the fact that he made it showed some venal ice water I also haven't seen before.

Two games is way too early to comment on stats, although his have been stellar. But I don't think it's too early to start a conversation about attitude. Most pundits talk about the new guys and Rubio when they talk about the team's X factor, but I would argue that it might be Martin. You can argue that after 11 years in the league that he is what he is. But he is in a different position this year...a veteran on a team that really doesn't have a star. If Martin can consistently play like he has in his first two games, this team's ceiling goes up considerably. But the questions will remain:

1) Is there a new attitude for Martin and is it sustainable, and

2) Can he stay healthy?

[BizarroJerry [enjin:6592520]]

Nice write up LST. I don't see Martin as much of a mentor, but I do like his attitude much better. And history says he'll miss a fair amount of games this year, so I'm not gonna get too excited yet about him being a leader or a star. My hope for him is that he can be a consistent shooter and miss fewer games than last year.

[WinTheLottery [enjin:9670360]]

Possibly Flip has promised him a deadline trade attempt if he toes the line.

[Q12543 [enjin:6621299]]

LST, I think this is wishful thinking on your part. I don't think the first two games or current team make-up means squat as it relates to Martin. We know his M.O.: He can shoot, score, but not defend well (even when he's trying he's not that good). And he's aging and injury-prone. All of these factors point to a perfect candidate for reduced minutes in an instant offense role off the bench. The problem is we have no one better to start in his place, so as long as he's healthy, I anticipate Flip continuing to start him and I anticipate we'll see pretty much the same Kevin Martin.

(by the way, that clutch 3 he hit the other day was from his favorite spot on the floor and it was wide open. It's not that shocking that he knocked it down).

[longstrangetrip [enjin:6600564]]

LST, I think this is wishful thinking on your part. I don't think the first two games or current team make-up means squat as it relates to Martin. We know his M.O.: He can shoot, score, but not defend well (even when he's trying he's not that good). And he's aging and injury-prone. All of these factors point to a perfect candidate for reduced minutes in an instant offense role off the bench. The problem is we have no one better to start in his place, so as long as he's healthy, I anticipate Flip continuing to start him and I anticipate we'll see pretty much the same Kevin Martin.

(by the way, that clutch 3 he hit the other day was from his favorite spot on the floor and it was wide open. It's not that shocking that he knocked it down).

Oh, there's no question that there is a lot of wishful thinking on my part here, q. And if Kevin does revert to the same Kevin, we can use this thread to document it. I just wanted to point out differences that I have seen in his demeanor in pre-season and the first week of the season...things that I never thought I would see out of Martin. I agree that his should-have-been-game-winning three was from his favorite spot and wide open, but sometimes something happens to a player when the game is on the line and a shot that he would normally knock down 75% of the time doesn't go in. A fellow with the same first name as Martin who played here recently is a good example of that. It was such an unusual experience for me as a Wolves fan to see a clutch shot as that, I did find it a little bit shocking...it's a rare occurrence for us.

[Camden [enjin:6601484]]

LST, I think this is wishful thinking on your part. I don't think the first two games or current team make-up means squat as it relates to Martin. We know his M.O.: He can shoot, score, but not defend well (even when he's trying he's not that good). And he's aging and injury-prone. All of these factors point to a perfect candidate for reduced minutes in an instant offense role off the bench. The problem is we have no one better to start in his place, so as long as he's healthy, I anticipate Flip continuing to start him and I anticipate we'll see pretty much the same Kevin Martin.

(by the way, that clutch 3 he hit the other day was from his favorite spot on the floor and it was wide open. It's not that shocking that he knocked it down).

You want Martin as a scorer off the bench. You also want Young off the bench as a "super sub". Beginning to think you don't know what an above average starting caliber player looks like...

In all seriousness, though, name 10-15 SGs better than Martin right now.

Harden
Wade
Bryant
Ginobili
DeRozan
Thompson
Dragic
Afflalo
Ellis
Stephenson (?)
J.Johnson (?)
________
________

Point is, SG is a thin position in today's NBA and Martin, imo, is in the top-10. He was a 19 PPG scorer last year with good efficiency, and his two best skills are perimeter shooting and drawing fouls. Neither of those skills leave a player as they age and I'm tired of seeing that argument against K-Mart.

The guy's definitely a starter, and a good one at that. I don't feel like there's a need to overanalyze these things.

[Q12543 [enjin:6621299]]

LST, I think this is wishful thinking on your part. I don't think the first two games or current team make-up means squat as it relates to Martin. We know his M.O.: He can shoot, score, but not defend well (even when he's trying he's not that good). And he's aging and injury-prone. All of these factors point to a perfect candidate for reduced minutes in an instant offense role off the bench. The problem is we have no one better to start in his place, so as long as he's healthy, I anticipate Flip continuing to start him and I anticipate we'll see pretty much the same Kevin Martin.

(by the way, that clutch 3 he hit the other day was from his favorite spot on the floor and it was wide open. It's not that shocking that he knocked it down).

You want Martin as a scorer off the bench. You also want Young off the bench as a "super sub". Beginning to think you don't know what an above average starting caliber player looks like...

In all seriousness, though, name 10-15 SGs better than Martin right now.

Harden
Wade
Bryant
Ginobili
DeRozan
Thompson
Dragic
Afflalo
Ellis
Stephenson (?)
J.Johnson (?)
________
________

Point is, SG is a thin position in today's NBA and Martin, imo, is in the top-10. He was a 19 PPG scorer last year with good efficiency, and his two best skills are perimeter shooting and drawing fouls. Neither of those skills leave a player as they age and I'm tired of seeing that argument against K-Mart.

The guy's definitely a starter, and a good one at that. I don't feel like there's a need to overanalyze these things.

Perhaps you missed the part where I said we have no one better at SG, so Flip needs to keep starting him. Him coming off the bench, like he did in OKC, would be ideal in my opinion. (I'd add Wes Matthews to your list above).

As for Thad Young, I'm not sure why you take such offense to me characterizing his ideal role as a super-sub. You act as if it's an insult or something. Don't take it so personally Cam! I like Thad Young!

You of all people know that the NBA has a long history of teams where their 6th man is often one of their best players. Thad had his best years in Philly as a major factor off the bench. And as long as Pekovic starts, I feel like we need more length playing next to him.

[Monster]

I didn't watch enough games of his back when he was the high scoring machine with the Kings, btu my gues was he was ballin late in the game then too. He went to Houston and he really wasn't totally the man there and sort of tailed off a bit then went to the Thunder where he was a bench scorer and then last year he wasn't the top guy either. I'm not making excuses for the guy I just think the used to play with more edge as a scorer than people remember becasue its been a while since he was kinda a guy that teams really looked to tomake big plays. Add in the rule changes and all that plus more injuries as he got older and you can see how he got a little sidetracked even though you can see he can still score with ease. I'm not suggesting he is gonna be a 4th quarter killer, but I think isn't isn't just a passive dude that can't get it done either. One thing I can never figure out is the people that say he isn't an above average ball-handler as a SG. Its so weird.

Can He keep up playing D like he has? IDK he has been terrific so far although the bar for him is pretty low. Who watched him when he was with OKC? Was he decent then? I have no clue. I'm sure he will tail off in his intensity and so will some other guys, but I wonder if the defense Flip is working on my be good for him in some ways. Lots of energy and energy players around him.

I can buy Martin being more of a leader although not being the leader. He basically admitted he wasn't and if you do look at his career once he got into his late 20's that wasn't really a thing maybe that was asked that much of him and he didn't do it. Martin has been the player that has talked about the way things didn't go right last year more than anyone and so maybe with everything there was a breaking point of "I don't want that to happen again I am gonna do something about it."I'm not suggesting he is gonna be some amazing leader or anything, but I can buy the idea that his approach can change enough he can have a reasonable positive influence on the team and the young guys.

The bottom line for me is if either his D or his leadership improve even a little he just got more valuable than I already thought he was and I think he is a great value for his contract even with his flaws.

[longstrangetrip [enjin:6600564]]

Interesting question, monster, about whether Martin was ever "the man" in his earlier days, or always disappeared in crunch time like he did last year. I have to admit I don't know...my impressions of Martin are largely from the last 3-4 years. The Wolves need someone who wants to and can take over at crunch time, so we don't end up with a terrible record like last year. Martin filled that role against the Bulls, and I hope he can stay with it. His excellent shooting and ability to draw fouls makes him a good closer candidate. We know he has the talent...it's just a question of whether he has the mental fortitude to assume the role.

Another guy who could turn out to be our closer is Thad Young. 82games.com has a "clutch stats" page, which documents a players performance in the 4th quarter and overtime when the score is close. Look at Thad's clutch stats last year compared to the guy he replaced:

Young: FG%: 53.2 3p%: 53.8
Love: 35.6 31.6

That's a dramatic difference for two players who were the go-to guys on their respective teams last year, and bodes well for our ability to close out games this year.

[BizarroJerry [enjin:6592520]]

I've never liked the idea of the same guy getting the last 5 shots in a close game. I think everybody on the floor should feel comfortable being "the man". And at least this year Rubio won't have to force it to Love every game in the clutch. Martin/Thad/Wiggy/Mo or whoever we have should take that shot. Spread the heroic wealth around!

Somebody earlier mentioned Martin could be angling for a trade to a serious contender this year. I'm torn on this, in the past I would say trade him, but I think he could help this team's confidence this year. What do you guys think?