Thunder should tank

[Coolbreeze44]

I'm not a fan of tanking either (although I admit there are times at the end of another bad Wolves' season that I prefer a loss to a win), and I think it would be shocking to sit two healthy star players who want to play. But I have a difficult time comparing what Cuban is suggesting to what the 76ers are doing. The 76ers are a bad team, and have been for a few years, but can anyone explain to me how they are tanking? What specific moves have they made that indicate that they are trying to lose, or put another way, what moves should their GM have made in the past few months to make them much better? Some might suggest that trading Thad Young for 2 marginal players and a first round pick was a "tanking" move, but how many more wins was Young going to lead them to this year? Remember, this was the guy who led them to 19 wins last year. And he was going to leave after this season anyway, so why not get a first round pick (and players) in exchange.

I can't imagine that the 76ers were going to convince any good free agents to join that woeful team, so participating in free agency wouldn't have been fruitful for them. And yes, they drafted a player with the third pick who will not play this year. But Embiid was a guy that many thought could go first in the draft if he hadn't gotten hurt, so to me, he was the obvious pick at #3.

Help me out here...what is Sam Hinkie doing that should be considered unethical?

Mainly it's shutting down Noel for the entire year last year when he could have come back and played, using a high draft pick on a player who they knew would not be coming from overseas, and then doing the same thing with Embiid as they did with Noel. They keep compiling assets without using them, thus insuring they will fail again and get at least one more top asset before they all come together at the same time next year.

[khans2k5 [enjin:6608728]]

I'm not a fan of tanking either (although I admit there are times at the end of another bad Wolves' season that I prefer a loss to a win), and I think it would be shocking to sit two healthy star players who want to play. But I have a difficult time comparing what Cuban is suggesting to what the 76ers are doing. The 76ers are a bad team, and have been for a few years, but can anyone explain to me how they are tanking? What specific moves have they made that indicate that they are trying to lose, or put another way, what moves should their GM have made in the past few months to make them much better? Some might suggest that trading Thad Young for 2 marginal players and a first round pick was a "tanking" move, but how many more wins was Young going to lead them to this year? Remember, this was the guy who led them to 19 wins last year. And he was going to leave after this season anyway, so why not get a first round pick (and players) in exchange.

I can't imagine that the 76ers were going to convince any good free agents to join that woeful team, so participating in free agency wouldn't have been fruitful for them. And yes, they drafted a player with the third pick who will not play this year. But Embiid was a guy that many thought could go first in the draft if he hadn't gotten hurt, so to me, he was the obvious pick at #3.

Help me out here...what is Sam Hinkie doing that should be considered unethical?

In consecutive drafts he has drafted players who cannot play for his team their first year in the league because of known injuries or overseas contract situations. He has traded away veteran players for next to nothing and not signed any decent veteran players to lead this young squad. Every move he has made has been for years down the road. That is the very definition of tanking now. He has a D-League team on the court in an NBA city. When you don't even meet the salary floor you are unethical because it means you aren't even willing to pay the minimum amount a team is required to spend to put an NBA team on the floor. It is unethical to charge fans for an inferior product in that scenario. They have a salary floor to ensure the players get paid and teams put an NBA caliber product on the floor. When you don't meet that floor you are telling the world that you are not putting an NBA caliber roster on the floor. They are charging up to $160 per ticket for a garbage product that might result in 15-20 wins and in reality that is like 10-15 wins at home. How is that ethical?

The way Philly is tanking is going to take multiple years to complete (this is year 2 and it could take another 2 more). If OKC were to tank for one season (this year) they'd be out of tanking mode for possibly another 4 minimum if they can add a talented player to a quality team and protect themselves if Durant and Westbrook leave by already having the guy they would get this year be ready to step up with 2 years to adjust to the league under his belt. Look at Indiana. They could tank this year, get Mudiay and roll with George, Hibbert and Mudiay moving forward with a veteran David West and a fill in 2 guard. That would keep them years away from tanking again. Tanking should not be an issue if you do it for one season. It becomes an issue when it is a multi-year endeavor subjecting your fans to years of an inferior product.

[Q12543 [enjin:6621299]]

For those of you that follow the stock market, CoolBreeze's description of the 76ers is a lot like Amazon. Amazon continues to invest like crazy for the future, but it has yet to deliver consistent profits (i.e. wins). Yet investors keep anticipating that those huge profits (or wins) will come some day due to all of the investments. Well, at some point, you need to show your investors (the fans) the money!

I don't think we've ever seen a team do a re-building process to the extent the 76ers have been doing it.

[longstrangetrip [enjin:6600564]]

I hear what you guys are saying, but I would have been inclined to make all the moves he has made (I'm not an expert on Saric, so I can't speak with first hand knowledge to that draft pick). Who do you guys think Philly should have drafted instead of Embiid and Noel? I saw both of them as great value picks based on where they fell to...both were projected to be #1's pre-injury.

Let's look closer at the Noel, Saric and Embiid picks.

Noel: Cool, you say that they sat a guy who was ready to play. If that were true, I would agree that they were doing something unethical. But Noel suffered a serous ACL tear in mid-February 2013, and most doctors say a player won't be effective for at least 12 months after an ACL tear. Noel claimed at draft time that he planned to play by Christmas (obviously a ploy to improve his draft position), but in fact doctors didn't clear him until very late in the season. Noel tweeted last March that he was targeting April 4 for his first game, but the team didn't allow him to play. I don't disagree with that decision. Would it really have helped them to have a rookie coming off an injury play the last 4-5 games of the year?

LST's ruling: not tanking

Embiid: This guy has been described as having an incredibly high ceiling, on both offense and defense. At the start of the season, only Parker and Wiggins were being discussed as possible #1 picks. But then as experts watched the rapid development of Embiid, he rose to the top in most mock drafts. Heck, some were wondering if Milwaukee or Cleveland might still take him, even knowing he was going to miss the entire season. But when Philly dropped to #3 in the draft, there was really no other choice. Come on, would you really have selected Aaron Gordon at #3, just because he could play right away? I don't see Aaron Gordon in the same hemisphere as Embiid.

LST's ruling: the only possible pick, and clearly not tanking

Saric: I admit I don't know as much about this pick as the previous two, because I haven't seen him play. But I've seen the description: Tony Kukoc with effort. And his Euro-League stats are really good. 6-10, but with the ballhandling and shooting skills to play SF...sounds like a great fit next to Embiid and Noel. That's going to be a long team. And yes, everyone knew he couldn't get out of his contract right away, but he still sounds too good to pass on at #12...most mocks had him going before that. If drafting Saric was an example of tanking, then we also have to conclude that drafting Rubio at #5 was tanking. I see both moves as obvious moves designed to improve the franchise.

LST's ruling: Great value pick at 12, and not tanking.

I admit that all three moves taken together ensured that Philly was going to be terrible this year, but they were going to be awful anyway, and taken individually they were each the best move at the time. If I were a savvy Philly fan (if you will allow that oxymoron), I would be really happy with the direction of this club. If I were a season ticket holder, I may be staying home on a couple cold nights this winter, but I wouldn't be giving up my tickets. Their cupboard is loaded.

[Camden [enjin:6601484]]

And what's LST's ruling on trading away Hawes, Turner and Moultrie for second round picks last year? Clearly a talent dump and the return doesn't seem to match the talent.

Trade rumors surrounded MCW this off-season. I didn't think they'd trade him, but I don't doubt that he was shopped hard. Indications of tanking.

I also think you're forgetting how they got Noel. A surprise draft day trade of under-25 year old All-Star Jrue Holiday, who was also under contract for several years at reasonable money. They didn't need to trade Holiday. That'd be comparable to Flip Saunders trading Rubio right now for a late lottery pick. Absolutely no reason to do it unless your plan as a franchise is to tank for multiple years.

You may agree with their decisions, but their plan is to tank and to tank hard. Alexey Shved and Malcolm Lee are their big name players for crying out loud. Look at that damn roster. There's bad, and then there's the intention to be the worst. That's Philly.

[Monster]

I'll add some thoughts on the Sixers tanking. LST laid out the idea that those top 3 picks were terrific value picks not just tanking. All 3 guys being guys they had to wait on is just a bonus and the reason they got them where they did. Remember too the Sixers made Orando give up another pick to get Payton. Also the Noel trade they got a 2014 pick as well plus remember they ended up with MCW in that draft which made trading Jrue for Noel and 2 draft picks seem like a pretty damn good deal to me but hey I was a big fan of MCW in that draft.

Why trade away Hawes Even turner for draft picks? Why not? They weren't going to keep those guys they are solid bench player the Sixers weren't going to keep them. In addition they sent those guys to playoff teams which ain't too bad for the players. I'm not saying the Sixers aren't tanking because its pretty obvious that's what they are doing but their basketball moves doing it make a lot of sense they have done a lot of the right things to hopefully build something more worthwhile than what they had which was basically nothing after that Bynum trade blew up in their face.

I do agree they should be lowering their ticket prices though no doubt.

[Coolbreeze44]

Those moves individually might not indicate a tanking strategy, but all three considered together have got to tell you they are tanking. And I'll take exception to a couple things LST said. ACL injuries do NOT take 12 months to come back from unless there is more damage than just the ACL. And if you take Embiid with the intention to sit him out all season with an injury that shouldn't be that long, you sure as hell don't take another guy who you know is not coming this year. Isn't that the definition of tanking?

[longstrangetrip [enjin:6600564]]

And what's LST's ruling on trading away Hawes, Turner and Moultrie for second round picks last year? Clearly a talent dump and the return doesn't seem to match the talent.

Trade rumors surrounded MCW this off-season. I didn't think they'd trade him, but I don't doubt that he was shopped hard. Indications of tanking.

I also think you're forgetting how they got Noel. A surprise draft day trade of under-25 year old All-Star Jrue Holiday, who was also under contract for several years at reasonable money. They didn't need to trade Holiday. That'd be comparable to Flip Saunders trading Rubio right now for a late lottery pick. Absolutely no reason to do it unless your plan as a franchise is to tank for multiple years.

You may agree with their decisions, but their plan is to tank and to tank hard. Alexey Shved and Malcolm Lee are their big name players for crying out loud. Look at that damn roster. There's bad, and then there's the intention to be the worst. That's Philly.

I had to look up the details of those three trades, cam, because I didn't remember the specifics of any of them except the Turner/Granger trade. Let's take a look at each of them:

Turner was traded along with Lavoy Allen for Danny Granger and a 2nd rounder. This is the only deal I had a problem with and wouldn't have done, because I admittedly overvalue Turner. But I can understand why he was a frustrating player for them as he has never gotten close to his potential. Granger was a great scorer, but he just can't stay healthy anymore. Indiana obviously didn't value Turner either, as they let him go in free agency. Since I don't think Allen was in Philly's plans, this was essentially a trade of two overrated players in the last year of their contracts. Doesn't seem like a tanking trade to me, but just a means of clearing away dead weight not in the team's plans.

Hawes was traded to the Cavs for Earl Clark (immediately waived), Henry Sims and 2 2nd round picks. If you've watched Spencer Hawes play, you have to agree that Sims and 2 picks is a pretty good return for him. After the trade, Sims and Hawes' stats for their new teams were similar the rest of the year, and this year Sims is outscoring and outrebounding Hawes (mostly because he's getting more minutes). Again, Hawes wasn't in the future plans for Philly. No tanking here.

During his time with the 76ers, Moultrie spent more time in the D-League or suspended for violating the league drug policy than he did with the 76ers. I would have taken a bucket of basketballs in exchange for him, but Philly was somehow able to get Travis Outlaw (waived) and a pick. I think Moultrie is out of the NBA now, so getting a second rounder for him was a coup...not tanking.

You are correct that Philly has a terrible roster right now, although I don't agree that their big names are Shved and Lee...that would be Noel and MCW. But they are terrible because the last three first rounders they traded weren't available to play right away (but still, the correct pick, in my opinion), and because they traded their high scorer from last year's dreadful team (who was going to leave in a year anyway) for a couple of bad players and a first rounder. All of these moves still seem prudent to me, not tanking. In my opinion, tanking is what Cuban suggested, or having Mark Madsen jack up 3-pointers. Those are unethical moves...I don't see the Philly moves as unethical.

[khans2k5 [enjin:6608728]]

They traded guys who could play and added value to a team even if it wasn't a significant amount of wins for picks and guys they immediately cut or never played. How is that not tanking? Trading a guy who is not in your future plans is fine, but they clearly made no effort to replace those guys on any level which leaves those moves as player dumps with the goal of losing more games. Most second round picks turn into nothing so racking up a bunch of them is going to result in most if not all of the return for the guys they gave away to be nothing or next to nothing. Once you get the draft picks you're allowed to sign guys to make your team better because the picks aren't controlled by you anyways. They are controlled by how another team performs. They've made no effort to replace any of the guys they have lost with NBA caliber talent. After Jason Richardson, Embiid is their highest paid player and he is on a rookie deal. How is that not tanking? They could have paired Noel with Monroe in the frontcourt and barely felt a hit because of how low their team salary is. They could have signed Bledsoe to go next to MCW to create a dynamic backcourt for the future. They could have made an offer to Hayward or Parsons to attempt to upgrade the team with quality talent. Hell, they could have even got Stephenson to give them a starting caliber NBA wing which they currently have none on the roster. They could have done any of those moves to get a quality NBA talent while not hindering anything but potentially drop a couple spots in the draft, but still clearly be a lottery team with a lot of ping pong balls. Instead they have chosen to put a 37 million dollar team on the court which is only 15 million more than Melo makes by himself this year. Until they fill out the roster with NBA talent that is worth the cost of hitting the salary floor, I don't see how this cannot be considered a year intended to be tanked.

[longstrangetrip [enjin:6600564]]

Khans, you state that Philly gave up useful players for nothing in return, but as I pointed out in my previous post, the trades either didn't involve "useful players" (e.g. Moultrie is no longer in the NBA and Turner was released by the team Philly traded him to) or they received a fair return (e.g. Sims has outperformed Hawes by any measure since the trade).

I find a lot of irony in the suggestions that Philly has not gone out and landed a stud (like Bledsoe) in free agency. I have read so many times on this board that the Wolves need to build through the draft because no top free agent is going to want to come here because we are not a desirable location. Why would any free agent in demand want to go to Philly, a team that won less than half the games the Wolves won last year? Philly's only chance is to build through the draft, and I haven't heard any persuasive arguments for drafting someone other than the first rounders they have drafted in the past few years. Yes, the fact that three of their draft choices were not able to play right away makes the 76ers that much worse this year, and sets them up for another top pick next year, but until someone provides a persuasive argument (without using hindsight) as to why Noel, Embiid, and Saric were not the correct pick at the time, I don't see their drafting as unethical.