Wolves' roster move rumors

[BizarroJerry [enjin:6592520]]

Wow, lots of heavy stats here boys. Love is gone, Thad is here. Let's move on.

[Monster]

So is Thad a better help defender then Love? This is where a lot of defensive improvement will come from?

Its maybe a simple stat in this advanced stat conversation but Thad's over 2 steals a game make me say yeah absolutely he is abetter help defender than Love.

I'll say that Tyson Chandler is an example of blocks per game being an overrated stat and I've been guity of that when talking about his impact. His blocks pergame are not impressive but the guy when healthy is a fantastic defensive player. I haven't looked at the numbers but I'd be surprised if they said he sucked on defense. Dalembert I'm pretty sure has a higher block rate but my guess is nobody is going to tell you he is nearly the defender that Chandler is. I think this back and forth is pretty good and valid points are being brought up. I'm glad there has been no name calling etc. I'll add that while Love probably got some uncontested or in one way or another cheap rebounds I have a hard time faulting a rebounder for chasing after balls. Top rebounders go after the ball they don't care who is there that's why they are top rebounders. Its a certain mentality they have. Love doesn't just wait for rebounds to fall into his lap.

One more thing I think is worth mentioning is right now I think there is some momentum towards going small without traditionalt centers. Even though there is. A lot of. Depth at the position right now. Why? Some of that is success of Miami and other teams without a legit C. Heck at times Diaw has played C (or whatever role you want to call what the Spurs have done for years) next to Duncan. The other reason is there is no true dominate scoring center like a Kareem, Shaq or Hakeem. Cousins was the top scoring C I believe but they suck and Dwight Howard isn't a guy you have to absolutely plan everything around stopping. If Cousins and the Kings take that next step or another C emerges legit starting Centers that can play man defense will suddenly be even more valuable. Shaq was a special case but he made fat/beefy tall dudes a lot of money back then because maybe they could lean on him and make it tougher for him to score or at least foul him hard enough without him still finishing the play. Cousins has the talent to change the league but. We will see if he can get there. His team has to get better too or it won't matter much. Its something worth watching.

[khans2k5 [enjin:6608728]]

Please point out to the part in any of my posts where I ever mention rim protection = less shots being taken at the rim. That is what you are saying. If you actually interpret my posts in this thread properly you would easily see that I am saying the amount of shots taken at the rim has less to do with the rim protector and more to do with the players around him, thus using the FG% he actually gives up at the rim is a better metric as to whether he is a good rim protector or not because it literally shows the percentage of whether he stops the shot from going in or doesn't. Rim protectors can't control the amount of shots they face because there are 4 other guys on the court who could let their man get to the rim. Rim protectors can only contest shots at the rim and the effectiveness of their rim protection then falls to the percentage of shots that go in against them. When I say defense starts at the rim I am not talking about taking away shots at the rim, I am talking about stopping the shots that do go up at the rim. There is a huge difference and I again re-iterate that I have never said rim protection or defense in general is all about stopping shots from being taken (a blocked shot is still a shot taken), but it is stopping shots from going in. The only way to stop a shot from going up at all is turning the other team over which is a much smaller percentage of the game than possessions that actually end in shots so I don't know why you would judge a defense more for the shots they stopped from happening than the exponentially more more shots that did go up that they tried to stop. If a football team gets 3 picks in a game but gives up 400 yards and multiple touchdowns, would you call that a successful defensive outing? No. In basketball, you can turn the other team over a lot of times, but if you can't stop the shots they do get up from going in you are still going to lose because turnovers account for like 15% of possessions in a game. The 76ers averaged the most turnovers in the league last year and that still only accounted for 14.8% of their total possessions so the other team's defense should be judged on the percentage of shots they stopped the 76ers from making and not how many times they managed to stop them from shooting at all because they turned them over.

I'm not trying to prove that rim protection is about stopping shots from being taken all together and you have clearly misread my posts if you think I have ever said that. I am arguing that rim protection is about stopping the shots that do go up at the rim and Pek and Thad gave up some of the worst percentages in the league at the rim for shots going in, thus we will still have no rim protection on the floor when they play at the 4 and 5 just like last year when we gave up the highest percentage of shots to go in within 5 ft.

As far as rebounding goes, Love will outrebound Thad 2 fold like he has every year they have both been in the league. To say Thad is even a comparable rebounder to a guy who has doubled-him up 6 straight years because the percentages say so is the dumbest thing I have ever heard. I dare you to argue with any knowledgeable basketball individual that Thad is a better rebounder than Love because his percentages are better, but he has been held up because of opportunity and they will laugh in your face.

You haven't even read my arguments properly and have tried to say things on my behalf that I haven't said in this thread that are actually part of your argument, not mine. You're getting confuse with what you are

[Camden [enjin:6601484]]

So is Thad a better help defender then Love? This is where a lot of defensive improvement will come from?

So be simple with my answer, yes. Young's a better help defender than Love.

[bleedspeed]

So is Thad a better help defender then Love? This is where a lot of defensive improvement will come from?

So be simple with my answer, yes. Young's a better help defender than Love.

So should that mean better team defense? Can't young guard SF's to a degree too? I am sure he would be completely over-matched by most centers.

[apollotsg [enjin:6592798]]

You claimed that we will be worse off defensively with Thad in for Love based on FG% in the paint and rebounds per game.


Specifically you said:

1. "rebounding ability which is about half of Love's"

Ability? no, the % show he does not have 1/2 the rebounding ability. 1/2 the opportunity perhaps but not ability.

2. "isn't going to be significant improvement defensively because Thad doesn't fill the one hole that caused the defensive struggles last year. Defense starts at protecting the rim and works it's way out."

So you are suggesting that Thad is worse at man defense, and maybe worse at help defense.

More importantly you are using an ESPN cliché - defense in basketball comes down to the individual preventing his man from scoring points. This is done by preventing your man from getting the ball, taking the ball from him, blocking/altering his shot, persuading him to pass the ball (time is with the defense), or forcing him to make a poor location shot under duress. If you fail at this, someone on your team has to make up the difference for you.

So lets do a math test to understand this then.

Player A, a interior player, does a poor job of man defense and allows his man to shoot at a high %, leading the opponents to continue to exploit this. This leads to a high volume of shots in the paint, at a high rate.

Lets say Player B, a perimeter player, is crap at man defense, so much so that his man penetrates on regular basis and converts at a high rate.

Player C, a interior player with slow plodding feet, gets drug to the opposite side of the paint as Player A or B on regular basis because this is a know weakness and nothing ever changes.

Player C (Pek) ends with a higher FGA% based on his sieve like teammates because he is poor at help defense OR teams understand this and work against an opposing team to maximize their strengths vs the opposing teams weakness. Pek is not a prolific shot blocker, but I would hardly say he allows people to do uncontested layups. Dieng has more agility and quickness to adjust to the opposite side of the paint than Pek but he is easily backed down in the paint and allows higher % shots, despite his blocking.

Back to the point, if Martin is starting, we will see the same level of penetration and scoring.

I have no idea what Thad does on D but I know what Love did, he did a poor job of man defense, and provided less help defense (or zero rim protection).


3. "rebounding is a raw stat. The effect on the game is how many more you grab over your opponent which equals possessions you get that they don't. Love got his amount of opportunities because he knows what he is doing. He gets in the right position."

Again, rebounds are a raw stat, so is rebound opportunities. Lets do another math problem:

Team A has 50 possessions and shoots at 50% - Lets pretend they get all the defensive rebounds - If rebounder A gets 1/2 the defensive rebounds he will have 12.5 rebounds (25 total)

Team B (different game) plays an up tempo game and has the following numbers: 100 possessions, allow 50% shooting If rebounder B gets 1/2 them he would have 25.


Who is better? Who helped his team more? If one of the players sacrificed his own defensive responsibility (as defined above, or any definition you can come up with) to gain better position, or actually better position over his own teammates... who helped his team more?


4. "The percentages don't matter in rebounding"

But it does for shooting?


Lets play that math game again:

Player A allows 10.4 points per game in the paint personally, but also causes 4 misses resulting in 4 rebounds, which about 2 are converted to offensive rebounds, lets give the other team 2 more points on those rebounds. This guy snagged .8 steal of a steal which stopped his opponents from scoring on that possession and gave his team an additional chance to score, lets give him +2.

Player A defensive numbers:
-10.4
-2
+2
-------
-10.4


Player B allows 6.4 points per game in the paint personally, he also causes 2 misses resulting in 2 rebounds, 1 will be converted to an offensive rebound resulting in 1 point for the other team. This guy stole 2.1 balls from the other team though, resulting in 2 more points and less scoring ops for the other team so we give him 4 points.

Player B
-6.4
-1
+4
------
-3.4



I am done with this argument - thanks, you made my day at work a bit more distracted and I got to think more critically about what Thad will do in place of Love, at least defensively.

[Coolbreeze44]

I barely have time to read this at work, much less construct something like it.

[apollotsg [enjin:6592798]]

One last note, I am guessing there is "that guy" on each team that gobbles up all the loose defensive rebounds - there are some strange names on the list. Some of them are flat out horrendous at contested rebounding % - here are a few:


Lebron and Durant have an amazing rebound % of 74% and 73% but only convert 25% and 22% of contested rebounds. Paul George has a woeful 22.9%


Pek is 2nd at 50%

[Monster]

One last note, I am guessing there is "that guy" on each team that gobbles up all the loose defensive rebounds - there are some strange names on the list. Some of them are flat out horrendous at contested rebounding % - here are a few:


Lebron and Durant have an amazing rebound % of 74% and 73% but only convert 25% and 22% of contested rebounds. Paul George has a woeful 22.9%


Pek is 2nd at 50%

This may be one of the strangest ways of poking holes in someone's game I've ever seen.

[apollotsg [enjin:6592798]]

One last note, I am guessing there is "that guy" on each team that gobbles up all the loose defensive rebounds - there are some strange names on the list. Some of them are flat out horrendous at contested rebounding % - here are a few:


Lebron and Durant have an amazing rebound % of 74% and 73% but only convert 25% and 22% of contested rebounds. Paul George has a woeful 22.9%


Pek is 2nd at 50%

This may be one of the strangest ways of poking holes in someone's game I've ever seen.

I wasn't poking holes, it was just an observation. It leads to asking the question of why do they have those numbers. Why does Lebron and Durant, the 2 greatest players in the league by a large margin has such low contested rebounding numbers. I assume it is a matter of them going against much bigger men or perhaps there is another answer.