Bulls vs. Cavs

[Porckchop]

Should Wiggins handle be that huge of a concern considering Rubio should be handling tand distributing the ball on offense? If anything argument can be made that Wiggins is the perfect compliment to Rickys game. With his athleticism and ability to move without the ball Ricky will find him in the right position to where the ball shouldnt hit the floor.

[60WinTim]

Should Wiggins handle be that huge of a concern considering Rubio should be handling tand distributing the ball on offense? If anything argument can be made that Wiggins is the perfect compliment to Rickys game. With his athleticism and ability to move without the ball Ricky will find him in the right position to where the ball shouldnt hit the floor.

I don't know Chop. One thing very evident last year was our lack of play makers -- Rubio can't do it alone.

I guess that's a reason I am so high on LaVine. I knew he played some PG in high school, but I never expected the ball-handling, vision and passing ability he displayed in summer league. Whatever we get in return for Love is gravy...

[60WinTim]

Hmmm. One more piece of circumstantial evidence in Cleveland's favor. Plus maybe Thompson is more available than I had thought...

http://blogs.twincities.com/timberwolves/2014/07/29/new-cleveland-coach-covets-a-stretch-four/

[longstrangetrip [enjin:6600564]]

Should Wiggins handle be that huge of a concern considering Rubio should be handling tand distributing the ball on offense? If anything argument can be made that Wiggins is the perfect compliment to Rickys game. With his athleticism and ability to move without the ball Ricky will find him in the right position to where the ball shouldnt hit the floor.

I'm not as concerned about Wiggins' handle as many on this board, and your point about Rubio is also an offsetting factor. I admit I didn't watch Wiggins much at Kansas, but I saw him a lot in SL, and didn't see any unusual ball handling issues. In fact, I was quite pleased with his ability to put the ball on the floor and get to the basket. Take a look at his nbadraft.net profile. They mention his tendency to dribble high and how that was a problem with double teams, but that seems to be correctable to me. After all, most players that are labled as being coachable improve significantly upon their 19-year-old game, and by all reports Wiggins is coachable and a hard worker.

I've also included Kevin Love's draft profile as a means of comparing these two players at 19. Love's profile is fairly accurate, although they blew their analysis of his rebounding. There is no question that Wiggins is much more highly regarded at 19 than Love was. Love has worked hard to improve and has become a top ten player. I see no reason that Wiggins won't do the same. I will be surprised if he doesn't become a top ten player within 4 years, and think a top 3 ceiling is not at all out of the question.http://www.nbadraft.net/players/andrew-wiggins#undefinedhttp://www.nbadraft.net/players/kevin-love

Edit: Sorry, guys...somehow I'm not able to paste Love's profile.


There is a lot to like about a Chicago deal that included McDermott and Mirotic, but the enormous upside of Wiggins makes me prefer a Cavs deal. The athleticism of Wiggins and LaVine next to Rubio is a very exciting prospect.

[Lipoli390]

Hmmm. One more piece of circumstantial evidence in Cleveland's favor. Plus maybe Thompson is more available than I had thought...

http://blogs.twincities.com/timberwolves/2014/07/29/new-cleveland-coach-covets-a-stretch-four/

Hmmm. One more piece of circumstantial evidence in Cleveland's favor. Plus maybe Thompson is more available than I had thought...

http://blogs.twincities.com/timberwolves/2014/07/29/new-cleveland-coach-covets-a-stretch-four/

Thanks for posting, Tim!

Further confirmation that Flip will eventually do a Wiggins deal. Also, further evidence that Flip has a lot of leverage with Cleveland. We know that the Cleveland front office wanted Love last summer and tried to pull off a deal for him and that was before LeBron's return. We know that LeBron really wants Love there. Now we learn that Blatt really wants Love. I'll add that, if the Cavs don't step up with the right offer, it's likely that Love will end up playing for the Cavs' main competitor, Chicago.

If I were Flip, I'd be pushing for the following in a two-way with the Cavs: Love and Brewer for Wiggins, Bennett Waiters and Tristan Thompson, along with the Miami pick. Even better if we can expand the deal to a three-way that brings in someone like Thad Young along with three of those four from the Cavs, while allowing us to also dump some salaries.

[SameOldNudityDrew]

If you're talking about a player who can be a superstar, you have to talk about handling and playmaking. Yes, we have Rubio, but how many superstar wings out there are just straight line drivers and aren't really playmakers? A superstar, especially on the wing, can't depend on a passer to get him the ball, and you have to be able to trust running the offense through them down the stretch. If Wiggins was a 7' C like Dwight or even a 6'10" PF like Stoudemire, then yes, he can be a superstar as a finisher if he's got a good set-up man like Rubio. But on the wing? Offhand, I can't think of another wing who came into the league with Wiggins-level handles and playmaking and became a star. Some star wings have had the handles but not the playmaking, but they were also prolific, smooth scorers. And to truly be a star who makes the team better, you really need to have some playmaking in there.

I like that guys are thinking about how prospective players would fit with Rubio, but I think we shouldn't overstate the importance of that if you're claiming that Wiggins could be a star. If Wiggins is going to be a star, he'll be better than Rubio, and we should be asking how would Rubio fit with Wiggins, not the other way around. In terms of athleticism and how it would fit with Rubio, we already have Brewer and LaVine, and I see Wiggins athleticism (while eye-popping) a bit redundant there, especially given how good Brewer has been there for us. Plus, that's mostly important in transition. What about the half-court, which is a much larger percentage of the game?

If we're honest, what we really need around Rubio are shooters, because Ricky's such a horrible shooter.

Rubio's a great defender, a creative passer, and I love his tenacity, but Rubio isn't the player many here thought he was going to be. His particular strengths and weaknesses mean you want players who fit with him, but to me, we should be careful not to assume Rubio is necessarily the long-term cornerstone as we talk about building a post-Love team. People turned out to have been way too optimistic about Rubio, and we shouldn't hang on to that illusion just like we should be careful not to repeat it by assuming Wiggins will be the next superstar.

Again, let me reiterate, I think Wiggins will be a very good player. But I think he's got some key hurdles to get over if he will ever be the #1 option on a contending team, a top 10-15 kind of player in the league. He could get there. And I hope he does because he's so much fun to watch. But those are some key questions he'll need to address if he's going to make it.

[Lipoli390]

Great post, Drew. I agree with you completely. That's why I continue to have misgivings about a Wiggins deal even though I see that as the best reported deal purportedly on the table. I guess I've taken a leap of faith that Wiggins handle and ability to create his own shot in the half-court offense will improve more than you typically see in players who are already close to 20 years old. That's what it will take for him to be the star many predict he'll be. Otherwise, he'll be an excellent defender, good jump shooter and excellent scorer in transition -- i.e., a very good NBA starter, but not a star.

In what you might consider another leap of faith, I still anticipate substantial improvement from Ricky as a shooter/scorer. He's just too skilled, smart and hard-working not to substantially improve his shot. He already showed marked improvement in his ability to finish at the rim after the all-star break last season. And he's been working with a new shooting coach all summer. I also think it's important to recognize the extent to which his injury and reconstructive knee surgery stifled the developement of his game.

In any event, as we sit here today, we can't help but have serious doubts about Rubio's development as a shooter/scorer and whether Wiggins has what it takes to become anything close to an NBA star.

So if Flip ends up doing the reported deal for the Wiggins package, Flip will have taken a leap of faith. It will be the home run swing that could hit the ball out of the park, but could instead produce nothing more than a solid single to left. I don't see Flip striking out with the Wiggins deal because I can't see Wiggins being less than a very good defensive player with some scoring ability in an NBA team's regular rotation.

In contrast, I see the reported Chicago deal for Gibson, Mirotic and McDermott as a sure double because I have no doubt that McDermott will be a high level scorer at the NBA level and we know that Gibson is among the better defensive PFs in the League. Mirotic has shown enough in Europe statistically to indicate that he'll at least be a decent NBA rotation player and I think he has the potential to be very good.

I'm in more of a gambling mode right now, so I'm leaning towards the Wiggins deal. But I'd be very happy with the Chicago deal -- maybe even relieved. And I sure hope Ricky's game takes the leap I'm anticipating.

[worldK]

I think concerns about wiggins handle has been overblown a bit here. Now, it is a concern but its not as bad as it is being made out to be. Guys like paul george, richard jefferson and kawhi leonard have the same concerns and they eventually improved upon it.

Its not like wiggins cant create a shot for himself. Watch summer league where he showed he can get off his shot when he wants to. The thing is he played a team game in kansas. He didnt dominate the ball and go iso a lot because thats not how his team played. One thing i liked in his college career is that you could see he really focus and worked on his jumper. That was supposed to be another weakness of his but he shot well and clearly work a lot on it. He Had a good form and release and could get it off easily. He knows what he needs to imroved on and he works on it. With the right coaching, he will develop and tap into his potential.

What wiggins brings right now is elite finishing in transition, movement with out the ball, willingness to play d and the tools to be elite in that area. He also has an improving jumper and developing a go to move with his stepback jumper. Im sure he works on his ball handling as well and being a team oriented player, his passing and playmaking will get better.

[longstrangetrip [enjin:6600564]]

I don't disagree, Drew, that a true superstar wing should be a good ball handler and playmaker...my disagreement is with those who don't believe Wiggins will get there. Check out his SL highlights:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kukaeDB0me8

Obviously the first things you focus on when you watch Wiggins are his unbelievable athleticism, his ability to create space with his NBA-ready step-back move, and his defense. But I watched most of his minutes in SL, and didn't detect any unfixable handle issues. In fact, I was pleasantly surprised at his ability to put the ball on the floor and get to the basket...and not just in a straight-line fashion. Take a look at the spin move at 1:18 of the highlights. That's not the move of a guy who is worried about his handle. Most experts talk about areas he needs to work on...the most common defect is his tendency to dribble too high. But I would argue that any defects are correctable, and a correction of his defects combined with areas where he is already elite, points to a very high ceiling in my estimation.

I expect him to eventually be the best overall player in any deal being discussed, and that includes Love. He will never be the rebounder Love is, but he will be ten times the defensive player and has the offensive versatility to challenge Love's scoring ability in a few years (he can score in more ways than Love could at the same stage)...not to mention he will likely be a much better teammate.

I don't dislike a Bulls deal, but my high regard for Wiggins' superstar potential makes me prefer a Cavs' deal.

[Porckchop]

Should Wiggins handle be that huge of a concern considering Rubio should be handling tand distributing the ball on offense? If anything argument can be made that Wiggins is the perfect compliment to Rickys game. With his athleticism and ability to move without the ball Ricky will find him in the right position to where the ball shouldnt hit the floor.

I don't know Chop. One thing very evident last year was our lack of play makers -- Rubio can't do it alone.

I guess that's a reason I am so high on LaVine. I knew he played some PG in high school, but I never expected the ball-handling, vision and passing ability he displayed in summer league. Whatever we get in return for Love is gravy...

But that's my point tim having Wiggins on this team should make Ricky's life a lot easier along with lavine