Bulls vs. Cavs

[Lipoli390]

I don't disagree, Drew, that a true superstar wing should be a good ball handler and playmaker...my disagreement is with those who don't believe Wiggins will get there. Check out his SL highlights:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kukaeDB0me8

Obviously the first things you focus on when you watch Wiggins are his unbelievable athleticism, his ability to create space with his NBA-ready step-back move, and his defense. But I watched most of his minutes in SL, and didn't detect any unfixable handle issues. In fact, I was pleasantly surprised at his ability to put the ball on the floor and get to the basket...and not just in a straight-line fashion. Take a look at the spin move at 1:18 of the highlights. That's not the move of a guy who is worried about his handle. Most experts talk about areas he needs to work on...the most common defect is his tendency to dribble too high. But I would argue that any defects are correctable, and a correction of his defects combined with areas where he is already elite, points to a very high ceiling in my estimation.

I expect him to eventually be the best overall player in any deal being discussed, and that includes Love. He will never be the rebounder Love is, but he will be ten times the defensive player and has the offensive versatility to challenge Love's scoring ability in a few years (he can score in more ways than Love could at the same stage)...not to mention he will likely be a much better teammate.

I don't dislike a Bulls deal, but my high regard for Wiggins' superstar potential makes me prefer a Cavs' deal.

Thanks for posting, Long. Good counter to Drew and me among others concerned about Wiggins' handle.

[SameOldNudityDrew]

Hey worldK and longstrange, so I'm procrastinating and I charted all of Wiggins' plays in that summer league highlight reel while paying particular attention to ballhandling and playmaking, which are the 2 issues we've talked about:

-One crossover dribble, pullup 3
-Two dribbles to left, stepback jumper
-Catch and shoot midrange from baseline
-Missed 3, recovers with steal
-Nice block at glass on man he's guarding
-Very nice entry pass to big man sealed down low
-Blocks dude who stupidly dribbled into traffic with ball high
-The 1:18 play, puts the ball down twice going right and makes a great spin move out of the third dribble for a dunk
-Big help block
-Steal leads to fast break
-Dribbles once, drives lane, protects ball like a running back, and finishes layup (nice)
-Dribbles down floor, little crossover, pullup jumper (first highlight with more than 2 or 3 dribbles so far)
-One dribble into a jumper
-Catch and finish at the glass
-Two dribbles left, nice stepback
-Rebound, dunk
-Loses ball trying to split D on pick-n-roll, recovers with nice block
-Two dribbles right, pullup
-Backdoor catch and dunk on baseline
-Nice D on shooter (block or forced airball, same result), runs floor, catches low pass with dribble and finishes difficult layup
-Two dribbles left, stepback jumper
-Two dribbles right on 3 point line, one more left for balance, then hits long 2
-Catch and shoot 3
-Stepback jumper out of dribble on baseline

First the caveats, 1) you have to take a highlight reel for what it's worth (they're all the good bits with the bad bits taken out), and 2) at the same time, this is a small sample size so we should be careful about drawing conclusions.

In terms of ballhandling, to my eyes, I saw one burst of very good ballhandling (1:18) and several nice stepbacks off 1 or 2 dribbles (seems to be his bread and butter), but there's only one time in that whole reel when he dribbled more than 2 or 3 times. So I remain wary.

In terms of playmaking, I loved his entry pass to the big man in the post who sealed his man, but that was it. Yes he can create shots for himself (his stepback looks great), but playmaking means making passes that create shots for others. And I didn't see that in here.

Again, this is a tiny sample size. And Wiggins DEFINITELY stands out in terms of his athleticism and energy (even when you take into consideration that these are all highlights). I do have less concern about his handle when it comes to a couple dribbles, but he does look more stiff than smooth with the ball and I haven't seen enough evidence to think he'll become a good ballhandler beyond the first two or three dribbles (and being a good ballhandler who can get anywhere on the floor with the ball takes more than a couple dribbles at a time). In terms of playmaking, there's really only the one highlight here, which is nice, but it's only one highlight.

[khans2k5 [enjin:6608728]]

Can Wiggins dribble a ball? That's borderline the level he is being treated at right now. The guy isn't very strong and plays upright with the ball. That's going to make it difficult to be an elite ball handler right out of the gate. Those are both easily correctable flaws that can significantly improve his dribbling ability. There are hardly any offensive systems used in Summer League and he is used to playing in a system at KU instead of being given the ball and being told to create something from nothing. I just think the ball handling is being blown out of proportion given that he isn't going to be asked to be the primary ball handler for a few years giving him plenty of time to tighten that part of his game up. Kawhi couldn't shoot or create particularly well coming into the NBA and he is just now starting to show those skills as assets to his game after 3 years in the league. With Ricky and Lavine both being primary ball handlers, I just don't see the need for Wiggins to have to control the game on the ball as much which is only going to help him develop those skills over time instead of throwing him into the fire before he has the skills to put it out.

I think if your expectations are that Wiggins will be who he is ever going to be as a player in the next 2-3 years then you should leave now and come back then because it's going to take a lot of patience with Wiggins before the real number 1 overall pick makes his impact on this league. Paul George averaged 1.1 APG's his rookie season. As his ball handling has improved he went up to 2.4 and 4.1 and now he is back down to 3.5. The best SF's in the game average in that 3-6 APG's range and I think Wiggins can definitely get there with time because he's not a selfish player. College is just a different beast because the paint is packed and you usually don't have as good of shooters around you that you are dishing the ball to. I think if you have the patience to wait 3-4 years for Wiggins to develop, he will fix a lot of these problems and show this is why you shouldn't be pigeon-holing guys when they are only 19 years old.

[Woomanchu [enjin:10956828]]

@Lip

How do you see Flip as coach playing out? Do you think he will adjust to the way teams are playing now? Are you worried at all?

[SameOldNudityDrew]

Don't exaggerate what I'm saying to criticize my point, khan. Nobody's saying he can't dribble. I actually pointed out in my last post that I was more impressed with his ability to handle the ball for a few dribbles than I expected. But I'm saying that I'm wary that he can become a good enough ball handler and playmaker to become a superstar, which means being able to put the ball on the floor for more than 2 or 3 dribbles and get where he wants and make passes that get open shots for others. And I think if he can't get to that point, it's going to be very difficult for him to become a superstar.

As a point of comparison, check out the Jabari Parker summer league highlight reel. Again, obviously this is a small sample size, and it's a highlight reel, so it inflates how good we think these players can become. But if you break down play for play Parker's highlights versus Wiggins', Parker shows a broader range of skills, including ball handling and playmaking.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=392Qd-aqxLw

I'm not trying to pigeonhole anybody. I'm trying to realistically project as well as we can what type of players these guys are going to be in 5 years or so. And I'll be the first to acknowledge that there's a lot of guesswork in this and we're often wrong. And we can watch the same videos and come to different conclusions, which is ok. This isn't a debate. It's a discussion.

[Monster]

To me Wiggins looks like a guy who has skill but hasn't caught up with his athletic ability (or a growth spurt or both). I don't know when Wiggins grew last so. Thegrowth. Spurt mayjust be a way of explaining what he looks like. Its not like he doesn't have ball handling skills its just he. Hasn't refined them and has a ways to go to get there. I don't know if that makes sense. Wiggins has a ton of upside because he has a very quick step and speed towards the basket. If he can become even an average ball handler for a legit NBA wing (that may not even be a high bar) wow. He would be tough to guard.

To me at this point a key question is what CAN Wiggins do or seems like has pretty good potential to do? Defend while getting blocks and steals which is big especially for a wing with. His size and athletic ability. His jumper looks good I would think he can hit shots maybe even become a pretty good shooter. Elite 3 and D guys (especially ones that also look to be plus rebounders) are really valueable so Wiggins has more upside than that so I'd like to get him. :)

[SameOldNudityDrew]

To me Wiggins looks like a guy who has skill but hasn't caught up with his athletic ability (or a growth spurt or both). I don't know when Wiggins grew last so. Thegrowth. Spurt mayjust be a way of explaining what he looks like. Its not like he doesn't have ball handling skills its just he. Hasn't refined them and has a ways to go to get there. I don't know if that makes sense. Wiggins has a ton of upside because he has a very quick step and speed towards the basket. If he can become even an average ball handler for a legit NBA wing (that may not even be a high bar) wow. He would be tough to guard.

To me at this point a key question is what CAN Wiggins do or seems like has pretty good potential to do? Defend while getting blocks and steals which is big especially for a wing with. His size and athletic ability. His jumper looks good I would think he can hit shots maybe even become a pretty good shooter. Elite 3 and D guys (especially ones that also look to be plus rebounders) are really valueable so Wiggins has more upside than that so I'd like to get him. :)

I'll have what you're having, monster.

[Coolbreeze44]

I've been one of the patient ones on the board regarding a potential trade. But if this is an indication of what the rhetoric will be for the next 25 days or so, it can't happen soon enough.

Personally I think the trade is done except for the actual submission to the league office. The addition of Wiggins and Lavine is going to bring a lot of excitement and anticipation for the next season. So I think you should all quit nitpicking Wiggins' game, and realize he is our guy and get excited about it. Flip is knocking it out of the park this summer. Who would have believed that we could be more excited about 2014-15, than we were about 2013-14? I know I will be.

[worldK]

A lot of good inputs and discussion here regarding wiggins from various posters.

I'l just add that while wiggins is not yet the playmaker or a capable secondary ball handler. His ball handling skills isnt a hindrance to his ability to score. As lst posted and drew breakdown for us, wiggins can get off his shot with ease and has a go to move with his smooth looking step back jumper. This isnt wally z where poor ball handling affected his ability to score more. Im a wally fan and he is a heck of a shooter but he score most of his points in catch and shoot, off screens, in transition, cuts and set ups by teammates. He had difficulty creating his own shot off the dribble and that somewhat limited him in becoming even better than he was. Wiggins has no such problems. He is not the shooter that wally is but he is improving in that area. He also moves well without the ball and can score effectively without dominating the ball. He also happens to be able to get off his shot off the dribble. Has a go to move that you can give him the ball in iso or end of shot clock situations and he can get off a shot he is comfortable with. Wiggins aint wes johnson where incredibly athletic but poor ball handling makes him unable to do anything off the dribble.

Wiggins weakness can be improved on and corrected. Wiggins isnt a terrible passer. He gets most of his assists within the offense his team plays in and making the right pass to the right team mate. He is unselfish and knows the right play. Making him more comfortable handling the ball more and correcting his mistakes will come from coaching and developing. Look at paul george, he struggled with his handling early in his nba career but eventually develop into a capable secondary ball hanlder and capable passer.

[60WinTim]

Plus a looksie at roster says Wiggins will likely be on the floor with both Williams and LaVine to handle the ball in the near term...