A Friendly Flatulence wrote:Don't short sell the Bulls depending on D.Rose's health and potential FA moves (Melo or Pau), the Wizards are up and coming squad that(pending Ariza) are in tact, the Pacers were great last year until whatever the hell happened in that locker room (can they rekindle the spark?), hell even the Hornets aren't terrible (that felt weird saying), and Toronto could grow together into a good squad. While the East certainly doesn't have the caliber teams that the West does, they are slowly improving which will in turn make the earlier rounds less of cakewalk while also making it ever so slightly more difficult to secure homecourt for the Finals vs. a West team. I just don't see how any more time in Miami is a good move for Lebron, its only going to get harder while D. Wade's health will likely only deteriorate.
I agree there's some improving teams in the east. But lets face it, it was so bad the last couple years there was no where to go but up. I reall think the Cavs team sets up real nice for Lebrons skills. He finally gets a really good pg , has a great hustle /glue guy in Verajao and some youthful exuberance and talent with the rest of the guys. Lebron has played on mostly aging teams over the course of his career.
longstrangetrip wrote:That is, when potential trades are discussed, we tend to put on our rose-colored glasses and see things too much from a Wolves perspective. It seems to me that is clearly happening in the Cavs-Wolves discussion.
Is that not also happening on other boards from fans regarding their own squads?
No question about it, phonom...and frankly, GM's are not immune from distorted thinking either. That's why deals are so difficult to consummate. Cleveland fans' optimism about Wiggins and Bennett is just as unreasonable as our overvaluation of Love, and I don't think the front offices thoughts are that much different. Right now, the Cavs are saying no deal if it includes Wiggins, and Flip is saying no deal of it doesn't. The question is whether either side will blink. I hope the Cavs do, but I think neither will.
monsterpile wrote:That article is interesting. I think the one thing that makes me think Wiggins could work on a team wanting to contend is it seems everything I read projects him to be a good defender even right away. What if even his rookie year he is able to play a similar role to what Leonard did with the Spurs his rookie year? Thats not too shabby. If they signed Lebron they would still have 4-5 roster spots so they could sign Miller, Ray Ray and Birdman and another ring chaser vet or 2 and be a pretty scary team even without Love. Its funny we are debating whether Wiggins could be a guy that helps Lebron soon enough and Leonard just won a Finals MVP in his 3rd season. We will know soon enough what happens. If we trade Love Wiggins seems to be the guy I'd take because the potential is pretty high we would probably get something else too and we get to hold onto him for a while so I should probably be hoping for that but I still want Love here. sigh...
EDIT: I am not sure how anyone can overvalue Love. The guy is REALLY REALLY REALLY good and put him with a team thats a better defensive team and thats not going to be that big of a problem. Love is a stud no wonder I don't want him to go anywhere. Love is built to playoff other guys.
Monster, I'm replying to just your edit about not being able to overvalue Love. I agree with you if the criterion is stats only...he is a terrific scorer and rebounder. But if your criterion is winning, which I believe it should be, Love's value plummets. He has been "the man" for almost all of his career, and in that role he has yet to lead his team to the playoffs. That's meaningful to me, and tells me that other negative factors that Love brings more than offset his great scoring and rebounding...defense, leadership and intangibles. I liken him to Carmelo Anthony, who is even a better scorer (although not as good a passer or rebounder). Anthony puts up gaudy stats, but really doesn't seem to make his teams any better.
It wasn't too long ago that Cavs' management watched LBJ carry guys like Ilagauskas and Mo Williams to a conference finals. They have to be comparing Love's supporting cast to LBJ's, looking at all the losses, and wondering how much of a winner Love really is. And for those of you who are doubting the Cavs can win with LBJ, Irving, Varejeo, Wiggins, Waiters, Thompson and Bennett (plus the Allens and Birdmen that LBJ will bring with him), compare that group to his last Cavs team. That squad would run LBJ's last Cavs team off the court!
I'm just trying to provide a little balance to the discussion. While it's true that the Cavs may be overvaluing Wiggns' potential, he is the #1 pick in the best draft in years and has potential to be an incredible superstar, and Love hasn't tasted the playoffs in his career. Can you see why he Cavs might be unwilling to give up Wiggins plus other young talent in exchange for a guy who hasn't been a winner?
Alex brought up the issue of the Dan Gilbert goodbye letter to LBJ when he left for Miami, and many of us dismissed it. Now there are multiple sources saying it may be the major factor in James' not being able to pull the trigger on going back to Cleveland. This article goes so far as to say that this deal would have been done long ago if not for the letter. Like all news out there, who knows if there is any substance to this. But it is another element to consider in this bizarre drama.
I think James still goes back to Cleveland, but let's say he doesn't. What does Cleveland do then with all that cap space they have cleared. Who do they target? Is there a player (or players) that would want to come to Cleveland to play with that promising young core? I don't know. Cleveland is a less attractive destination than Minneapolis, and they haven't proven anything yet. I think it's a tough sell.
I really thought the league would suffer after the last lockout, but look at all this buzz about free agency, I know it's taken to a new level with LeBron, but I still can't believe it.
Alex brought up the issue of the Dan Gilbert goodbye letter to LBJ when he left for Miami, and many of us dismissed it. Now there are multiple sources saying it may be the major factor in James' not being able to pull the trigger on going back to Cleveland. This article goes so far as to say that this deal would have been done long ago if not for the letter. Like all news out there, who knows if there is any substance to this. But it is another element to consider in this bizarre drama.
I think James still goes back to Cleveland, but let's say he doesn't. What does Cleveland do then with all that cap space they have cleared. Who do they target? Is there a player (or players) that would want to come to Cleveland to play with that promising young core? I don't know. Cleveland is a less attractive destination than Minneapolis, and they haven't proven anything yet. I think it's a tough sell.
It's even MORE stupid when you account that they only took the letter down last week. The same letter that promised that the Cavs would win a title before Lebron. Since then Lebron went to the finals every year while the Cavs were so bad they got 3 number 1 picks. It baffles me how some of these owners got so rich. Complete idiots
longstrangetrip wrote:
No question about it, phonom...and frankly, GM's are not immune from distorted thinking either. That's why deals are so difficult to consummate. Cleveland fans' optimism about Wiggins and Bennett is just as unreasonable as our overvaluation of Love, and I don't think the front offices thoughts are that much different. Right now, the Cavs are saying no deal if it includes Wiggins, and Flip is saying no deal of it doesn't. The question is whether either side will blink. I hope the Cavs do, but I think neither will.
I've also heard national guys talk about how Love is undervalued. How GS would be CRAZY not to deal Thompson for him, etc, etc. Same goes for Wiggins & young unproven talent when it comes down to pairing Lebron, Kyrie & Love.
monsterpile wrote:That article is interesting. I think the one thing that makes me think Wiggins could work on a team wanting to contend is it seems everything I read projects him to be a good defender even right away. What if even his rookie year he is able to play a similar role to what Leonard did with the Spurs his rookie year? Thats not too shabby. If they signed Lebron they would still have 4-5 roster spots so they could sign Miller, Ray Ray and Birdman and another ring chaser vet or 2 and be a pretty scary team even without Love. Its funny we are debating whether Wiggins could be a guy that helps Lebron soon enough and Leonard just won a Finals MVP in his 3rd season. We will know soon enough what happens. If we trade Love Wiggins seems to be the guy I'd take because the potential is pretty high we would probably get something else too and we get to hold onto him for a while so I should probably be hoping for that but I still want Love here. sigh...
EDIT: I am not sure how anyone can overvalue Love. The guy is REALLY REALLY REALLY good and put him with a team thats a better defensive team and thats not going to be that big of a problem. Love is a stud no wonder I don't want him to go anywhere. Love is built to playoff other guys.
Monster, I'm replying to just your edit about not being able to overvalue Love. I agree with you if the criterion is stats only...he is a terrific scorer and rebounder. But if your criterion is winning, which I believe it should be, Love's value plummets. He has been "the man" for almost all of his career, and in that role he has yet to lead his team to the playoffs. That's meaningful to me, and tells me that other negative factors that Love brings more than offset his great scoring and rebounding...defense, leadership and intangibles. I liken him to Carmelo Anthony, who is even a better scorer (although not as good a passer or rebounder). Anthony puts up gaudy stats, but really doesn't seem to make his teams any better.
It wasn't too long ago that Cavs' management watched LBJ carry guys like Ilagauskas and Mo Williams to a conference finals. They have to be comparing Love's supporting cast to LBJ's, looking at all the losses, and wondering how much of a winner Love really is. And for those of you who are doubting the Cavs can win with LBJ, Irving, Varejeo, Wiggins, Waiters, Thompson and Bennett (plus the Allens and Birdmen that LBJ will bring with him), compare that group to his last Cavs team. That squad would run LBJ's last Cavs team off the court!
I'd argue Love's been the man on his team for about half his career. First two years he was a backup, and he pretty much missed the whole season two years ago
There's balance and then there's leaning too heavily against your side of the scale, which is what I think you're doing, LST. I think you're mainly just completely fed up with Love's attitude throughout last season and this summer, which is understandable to an extent. Along with that, though, it's clouding a fair assessment of Love's ability.
He became just the eighth player in NBA history to average at least 25 points, 12 rebounds and four assists per game for an entire season last year... the other seven: Kareem, Baylor, Wilt, Barkley, Billy Cunningham, Bob McAdoo and Oscar Robertson... all Hall of Famers. Not to mention he was third in win shares last year, above Curry, Harden, Griffin, Paul, Lowry and Noah. This isn't your normal All-Star power forward. This is a guy doing things no power forward has ever done before. Love set an NBA record last year, becoming the first player in NBA history to record 2,000 points, 900 rebounds and 100 3-pointers in a single season. Please stop undervaluing a big time talent, who keep in mind, is still only 25-years old.
You can also say Love isn't a good No. 1 on a contending team, and while I'd debate that his situation in Minnesota hasn't been truly fair, he also wouldn't be asked to be the best player on a team with LeBron James. Name a better No. 2 in the league right now... You can't. The argument comes down to Griffin or Westbrook, and I'll take Love over both of them every day of the week.
Comparing the 2014 Cavs to the 2006 Cavs is irrelevant, in all honesty. The NBA is different now, and it's arguably a much more talented league. If you wanna compare the 2014 Cavs with and without Kevin Love, I'd like to steer you to an article that has already been posted on here by a different poster. It's well worth the read and you definitely need to read it. http://fivethirtyeight.com/datalab/what-cleveland-would-look-like-with-lebron-james-and-kevin-love/
Make no mistake about it, we're the franchise trading a 25-year old star away. We're losing in ANY trade we make. We failed as an organization to surround him with sufficient talent and coaching to get him in the playoffs. Wiggins and pieces are far from an equal return for the player Love is today, but it's one that COULD work out well for both teams. You seem to make it out to be a real risk for the Cavs, when it's absolutely the other way around. They're getting the top-10 player. They're teaming up LeBron and Irving with Love. They're becoming NBA Finals contenders. What are we doing? Taking unknowns for a young star player in a talent-rich NBA. Stop the notion that Cleveland would be losing by dealing Wiggins for Love. It's absurd.
